Malaya What If
- Thread starter Fatboy Coxy
- Start date
From the United States, point of view. I've been a bit of a fan of the Commander of the U.S. Asiatic Fleet, Thomas Hart. Hart knew that the USN would not have a real advantage until fall 1942.
From 1936 until 1939 Hart was a member, then President of the USN General Board. This board gave us the designs of the ships that created the USN that won the war. Benson and Fletcher Class Destroyers; Cleveland and Atlanta Class CLs Baltimore Class CAs, Alaska Class Very Heavy Cruisers; North Carolina, South Dakota, and Iowa Class Battleships; Essex Class CVs; as well as the fleet train. What this Board did was put together the packages that became the the 1938 Navy act, and the 1940 Two Ocean Navy Act. Hart knew that New Destroyers and Cruisers, were going to the Atlantic, and that the 1st group of the fleet train, the Oilers would not be available until summer 1942.
From 1936 until 1939 Hart was a member, then President of the USN General Board. This board gave us the designs of the ships that created the USN that won the war. Benson and Fletcher Class Destroyers; Cleveland and Atlanta Class CLs Baltimore Class CAs, Alaska Class Very Heavy Cruisers; North Carolina, South Dakota, and Iowa Class Battleships; Essex Class CVs; as well as the fleet train. What this Board did was put together the packages that became the the 1938 Navy act, and the 1940 Two Ocean Navy Act. Hart knew that New Destroyers and Cruisers, were going to the Atlantic, and that the 1st group of the fleet train, the Oilers would not be available until summer 1942.
Are they separate nationals in any meaningful sense at this point?
Definitely. Since 1901 Australia has been a self-governing domion, which is effectively a completely separate entity to the United Kingdom.
*cough* Australia became “independent” sometime around 1984 or later when the act and the closure of the last Lords appeals route happened in IIRC Queensland.
Australia can never be independent in a capital society due to its relatively capitalisation.
In 1939 Australia became independent…when it ratified the Westminster statute in 1942 as of 1939…
So Australia isn’t really independent. But Australian Labor hasn’t pass Westminster yet. But yanks probably don’t care about that, they care that they’re not English. Yes I know Britain isn’t England. We’re talking the US policy establishments mentality in 1940, not whether Australia’s economy is dependent upon international finance capital or whether the UK banks can dismiss a State Premier.
I'm not convinced that Australia or NZ would of the time would meet any modern test of separate nationality at the time. But that's distinct from Australia being considered as a separate place by a foreign government for their own legislation.
I'd sort of assumed that till midwar at least the Yanks would categorise everyone but Canada as basically British for war making purposes. Which is not the same point as independence, which I thinks a red herring for ANZ purposes anyway (who cares that there isn't a specific agreed date either became independent), when it's Responsible Government and independence of foreign affairs that counts in a war situation.
At this point the problem isn't the politics of lend-lease, but availability of American arms. Europe had top-priority, followed by Africa, then the Soviets and the crumbs were for the Far East. See also the back-log of DEI orders.
Well the yearly intake of conscripts in the DEI after general mobilization is going to be very small. A lot of Indo's will not be conscripted at all if there were to Indonesian. Also consider the fact that the Dutch population was used to keep the administration and economy running so a large percentage will have gotten draft referrals. There were proposals to start drafting Chinese but the administration was afraid for the racial tensions that might cause. In the end there was an attempt to conscript natives but without an agreement with the nationalists the intake was abmysal.In truth, I don't really know, other than the Dutch/Indo population was a very small percentage, and they were key to it all. perhaps Parma or HJ Tulp can tell more, our resident Dutch East Indies experts. (I'm bigging you up guys
The Dutch were very much scrapping the bottom of the barrel of manpower with the war in Europe also demanding personel.
Dutch doctrine was to hit fast and often with light cruisers. Helfrich was the standard bearer of that doctrine.
Politically impossible. Also, for these people the Indies were their home. Where would the go? Besides the Japanese are never going to get near Java. Right?
I was refering to land and air resources, the naval doctrine actually makes sense considering.
As for the civilians...noble sentiment, but ask the the folks in Shanghai and Nanking how that worked out for them. You can go back home once the war's over. Until then, you send the noncombatants and dependents to Australia, India, Kenya, anywhere you can where the Japanese can't rape and mutilate your daughters, mothers, wives, and sisters and behead and bayonet them and everyone else right down to the babies. Worrying about that shit tends to distract one...
As for the civilians...noble sentiment, but ask the the folks in Shanghai and Nanking how that worked out for them. You can go back home once the war's over. Until then, you send the noncombatants and dependents to Australia, India, Kenya, anywhere you can where the Japanese can't rape and mutilate your daughters, mothers, wives, and sisters and behead and bayonet them and everyone else right down to the babies. Worrying about that shit tends to distract one...
The Australian Parliament in response to the British response to it independently declaring war on Japan, superate to the UK. The Australian Parliament, under Labor sought to establish itself as a seperate entity to the UK. They also at the same time declared war on Hungary, Italy and Vichy France. Before this the Liberals had assumed that once the UK had declared war, so had the Commonwealth. It was only with the election of Labor that independent thought came to the fore, which resulted in the passing of the Statute of Westminster. It took until 1986 to remove the last remnants such as being able to appeal to the House of Lords in court cases. Essentially Australia though was by-and-large an independent entity from 1901 when Federation occurred.
The Americans are woefully ignorant about foreign cultures and legalities. Australia became independent when it became a self-governing dominion, when it became a Federated entity when the separate colonies were joined into a singular state. It was recognised as such by nearly all other civilised countries, apart from Washington it would seem. Which is why the ANZAC Pact occurred in response to the declaration of the Cairo Conference where Australia and New Zealand were ignored and the UK and US made declarations in their name. The ANZAC Pact was the first steps by Australia on the international stage and had considerable repercussions in it's relations with the UK and the US and indirectly led to us being sidelined by Washington in the fight with Japan.
By comparison for New Zealand there literally is no accepted date for independence. By this I mean among historians, government experts or constitutional lawyers. But it is irrelevant to New Zealand that there's no one date.
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Apart from the two fictitious characters, all the rest of this is, as was historically
MWI 41050218 Nibbling Away At The Defences
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
1941, Friday 02 May;
The five members of the Guastatori crawled slowly up the slopes of the rocky, broken ground that was the small hill, Ras el Medauar. Their clever use of low ground shielded them from their objective, a pre-war built Italian blockhouse, now in use by the Australian defenders of Tobruk. Two stopped, about 15 metres away from a corner of the target, while the other three continued, their trail crossing the front of the blockhouse.
But despite their stealth, the Aussies knew they were approaching on that route, a couple of dead Bersaglieri of the 8th Regt, marked a previous attempt. And again, the tell-tale puffs of dust caused by the men gave warning. An Aussie slid out of a rear door and came around the blockhouse, grenades tight in hands, pins pulled. He leant back, his right arm extended, and threw a grenade at the dust in front of the blockhouse, his accuracy unerring, it exploded just behind the three Italians. One died, his body shielding the satchel charges he carried, and badly wounded the other two. One of them, Emilio Caizzio, gathered the satchel charges, pulling the fuse, and began a bent over jinking run towards the blockhouse.
Meanwhile the Aussie had just seen the ignition flame light up, of a mod 40 flamethrower, carried by the two-man party, and a second grenade flew in their direction, exploding to their right. It tore into the cylinders carried on the back of one, and ignited the fuel, the flames engulfing both, who stood up, desperately trying to beat off the fires before they penetrated the anti-flame suits. The Vickers machine gun, firing from the blockhouse gun slits, quickly mowed them both down, undoubtedly saving them from a far worse death.
But it gave Caizzio the time he needed, the exploding fuel tanks, the stuttering reply of the Vickers, gave wings to his feet, and he crossed the dead ground with great speed, before the gunners could traverse the machine gun, and kill him. Making the walls of the blockhouse, out of sight of the gunners, he took one last breath before throwing himself against the firing slit, the satchel charges between him and the fortification. Great cries of consternation rose from the Australians inside, but a mere second later, the charges blew, tearing open the front of the blockhouse, killing or incapacitating all inside. Forty metres away a dozen Bersaglieri rose, and charged forward, bayonets drawn, quickly taking the damaged blockhouse, and with it, final control of Ras el Maedauar, the sole surviving Australian fleeing to report on its loss.
As it had begun, a day ago, the fighting continued around the area, German attacks either side of the hill meeting with mixed results, losing a number of tanks to newly laid minefields, anti-tank guns and a few British tanks. An Australian counter attack the following night also failed, leaving the Axis having overrun the perimeter defences on a three-mile front, penetrating as far as two miles, and most importantly capturing the high ground of Ras el Maedauar, allowing the establishment of observation posts, and a jumping off point for further attacks.
Failing to take Tobruk quickly a month ago, the Axis forces had resorted to laying siege, while building up their forces both around it, and eastwards. Now they were engaged in a logistical race, supplies coming from Italy to Tripoli and then by truck 930 miles along the Via Balbia coastal road, while the British, had been able to ship in over 5,000 tons via the harbour, on night convoys along the coast from Egypt, maintaining a reinforced 9th Australian Division, which had been busy laying wire and mine fields, as well as digging more defensive positions. The Axis forces were in a game of nibbling away at the defences, in an effort to create a tactical advantage from which they could launch that all important attack that would capture Tobruk. The gains, although small, were becoming significant, but for now, the Australians were still hanging on.
The five members of the Guastatori crawled slowly up the slopes of the rocky, broken ground that was the small hill, Ras el Medauar. Their clever use of low ground shielded them from their objective, a pre-war built Italian blockhouse, now in use by the Australian defenders of Tobruk. Two stopped, about 15 metres away from a corner of the target, while the other three continued, their trail crossing the front of the blockhouse.
But despite their stealth, the Aussies knew they were approaching on that route, a couple of dead Bersaglieri of the 8th Regt, marked a previous attempt. And again, the tell-tale puffs of dust caused by the men gave warning. An Aussie slid out of a rear door and came around the blockhouse, grenades tight in hands, pins pulled. He leant back, his right arm extended, and threw a grenade at the dust in front of the blockhouse, his accuracy unerring, it exploded just behind the three Italians. One died, his body shielding the satchel charges he carried, and badly wounded the other two. One of them, Emilio Caizzio, gathered the satchel charges, pulling the fuse, and began a bent over jinking run towards the blockhouse.
Meanwhile the Aussie had just seen the ignition flame light up, of a mod 40 flamethrower, carried by the two-man party, and a second grenade flew in their direction, exploding to their right. It tore into the cylinders carried on the back of one, and ignited the fuel, the flames engulfing both, who stood up, desperately trying to beat off the fires before they penetrated the anti-flame suits. The Vickers machine gun, firing from the blockhouse gun slits, quickly mowed them both down, undoubtedly saving them from a far worse death.
But it gave Caizzio the time he needed, the exploding fuel tanks, the stuttering reply of the Vickers, gave wings to his feet, and he crossed the dead ground with great speed, before the gunners could traverse the machine gun, and kill him. Making the walls of the blockhouse, out of sight of the gunners, he took one last breath before throwing himself against the firing slit, the satchel charges between him and the fortification. Great cries of consternation rose from the Australians inside, but a mere second later, the charges blew, tearing open the front of the blockhouse, killing or incapacitating all inside. Forty metres away a dozen Bersaglieri rose, and charged forward, bayonets drawn, quickly taking the damaged blockhouse, and with it, final control of Ras el Maedauar, the sole surviving Australian fleeing to report on its loss.
As it had begun, a day ago, the fighting continued around the area, German attacks either side of the hill meeting with mixed results, losing a number of tanks to newly laid minefields, anti-tank guns and a few British tanks. An Australian counter attack the following night also failed, leaving the Axis having overrun the perimeter defences on a three-mile front, penetrating as far as two miles, and most importantly capturing the high ground of Ras el Maedauar, allowing the establishment of observation posts, and a jumping off point for further attacks.
Failing to take Tobruk quickly a month ago, the Axis forces had resorted to laying siege, while building up their forces both around it, and eastwards. Now they were engaged in a logistical race, supplies coming from Italy to Tripoli and then by truck 930 miles along the Via Balbia coastal road, while the British, had been able to ship in over 5,000 tons via the harbour, on night convoys along the coast from Egypt, maintaining a reinforced 9th Australian Division, which had been busy laying wire and mine fields, as well as digging more defensive positions. The Axis forces were in a game of nibbling away at the defences, in an effort to create a tactical advantage from which they could launch that all important attack that would capture Tobruk. The gains, although small, were becoming significant, but for now, the Australians were still hanging on.
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Not all heroes fought for the Allies.
A bit more about Emilio Caizzio here
italiacoloniale.com
A bit more about Emilio Caizzio here
16 Maggio 1941, Tobruch. Emilio Caizzo la prima MOVM dell’Arma del Genio nella Seconda Guerra Mondiale
Emilio Caizzo MOVM Nei Guastatori non si militava se non si dava prova di possedere le migliori qualità umane, fisiche e morali : buona tempra e cuore saldo, fede pari al coraggio, resistenza fisic…
italiacoloniale.com
Disagree about Hart and FDR. Both knew they were buying time until the first if the 1938 ships started arriving, the Atlantas, Bensons and Clevelands, Wasp and Hornet, and the oilers. FDR knew that once the embargoes hit it was a matter of months, a year at most a year before the Japanese moved South.
Hart in late 1940 and early 1941, sent home all American Navy and Marine Dependents, and instructed those personnel with local families to make arrangements for their safety.
Yeup. Hart was one of the smart ones on that. He had no illusions about how the Japanese would treat Western enemy national civilians, as well as understanding how the dependents of his men being in the inevitable line of fire would be a distraction and blow to morale. So best get them out of the way if at all possible. Not all did, of course, but he made a solid effort and save a lot of lives.
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Hi Butchpfd, thank you for this. I have a number of stories written regarding FDR and the Japanese diplomatic moves pre Dec 41, I can follow how the Japanese thinking evolved going forward to war, but despite a lot of factual material written on the web, I'm struggling with FDR's viewpoint on all this.
Being British, my knowledge on WW2 centre round the British narratives of Dunkirk and the Blitzkrieg, the Battle of Britain, North Africa, and the many calamities suffered, before success, the U-boat war, invasions of Italy and France onto final victory in Europe. I have a fascination with the fall of Singapore, but my American take on things is poor.
So my question to Butchpfd, and all you other American readers is this
I have a quite bombastic MacArthur view on defence of the Philippines, a very pragmatic Adm Hart, doing the best anyone could, and a USN that has reluctantly been persuaded to base its Pacific fleet at Hawaii. If FDR appreciated war might happen, and that America wasn't ready, why did he take such a forceful approach to dealing with Japan.
This article sets out the dangers of the economic embargo in far better detail, although I don't agree with the thought that FDR wanted to goad Japan into war
How U.S. Economic Warfare Provoked Japan's Attack on Pearl Harbor | Robert Higgs
Ask a typical American how the United States got into World War II, and he will almost certainly tell you that the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor and the Americans fought back. Ask him why the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, and he will probably need some time to gather his thoughts. He might...
Edited to more clearly frame my question
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From a brief read-through, that article can be politely described as neo-isolationist tosh. The author doesn't quite come out and say that the US was wrong to oppose the Nazis, but the whole thread is "conspiracy by the evil Roosevelt administration to drag the peace-loving American people into an unjustified foreign war" - up to and including the long-debunked myth that Roosevelt knew about the Pearl Harbor attack in advance and chose to let thousands of Americans die because evil conspiracy. I have to admit, though that the "Roosevelt conspired to force Japan to attack the US so he'd have an excuse to declare war on Germany" is a new one on me.So my question to Butchpfd, and all you other American readers is this
I have a quite bombastic MacArthur view on defence of the Philippines, a very pragmatic Adm Hart, doing the best anyone could, and a USN that has reluctantly been persuaded to base its Pacific fleet at Hawaii. If FDR appreciated war might happen, and that America wasn't ready, why did he take such a forceful approach to dealing with Japan.
This article sets out the dangers of the economic embargo in far better detail, although I don't agree with the thought that FDR wanted to goad Japan into war
How U.S. Economic Warfare Provoked Japan's Attack on Pearl Harbor | Robert Higgs
Ask a typical American how the United States got into World War II, and he will almost certainly tell you that the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor and the Americans fought back. Ask him why the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, and he will probably need some time to gather his thoughts. He might...www.independent.org
Edited to more clearly frame my question
I'd take any claims made by the author with about a Pacific Ocean's worth of salt.
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Hi Merrick, apologies, I wasn't referring to the part in the article regarding Germany, it was more about how japan was being economically throttled, but the US wasn't ready for a war with them. Could he have delayed the embargo, traded oil for time, and in 12 months time say, imposed the restrictions, with a much better US military on call?
