Malaya What If
- Thread starter Fatboy Coxy
- Start date
Thanks for taking the time to look that up. Presents a couple of interesting Matapan butterflies.
Cunningham mentions in his autobiography that Warspite's condensers ate some mud on the way out of Alexandria that slowed her by a couple of knots. Have Warspite a couple of knots faster, plus five what look like big & powerful Greek destroyers joining the fight from an unexpected direction, and Vittorio Veneto could be in for a bad night.
Cryhavoc101
Donor
Yes granted the Italians surrounded VV with most of the escorts like wrapping it in bubble wrap (3 heavy & 2 light cruisers as well as 9 DDs) but given HMAS Stuarts experience when she bumped into an Italian destroyer guarding Pola during the night its possible they could get a hit or two on VV?
But granted its a big ask
MWI 41032912 Keppel Harbour
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
1941, Saturday 29 March;
The old rusty tramp steamer, Georg Sibbern, dropped anchor in the roads off Keppel Harbour to await a quayside berth, its Norwegian flag occasionally fluttering in a dying breeze, the heat of the midday sun beating down on her. She had completed an uneventful voyage from Vancouver, Canada, enroute she had stopped in Hong Kong, and picked up half a dozen British Forces personnel, two of whom were promoted to new roles in India, three to the OCTU in Singapore, and a sixth being invalided out, back to the UK.
She was one of a number of tramp steamers chartered by the Canadian Government, for a series of voyages to Singapore, further proof of their commitment to contributing to the defence of Malaya. In her holds were Canadian built light and medium trucks, assorted steel products, cement, telephone wire and other basic war material. All to feed the hungry demands of the developing defences. Her captain expected they would be turned around in about four to five days, rubber and tin would part-fill his holds on the return voyage.
Keppel Roads was busy, numerous ships at anchor, some like the Georg Sibbern awaiting a wharf to become free to unload at, while others had already been unloaded, and such was the custom in Singapore, that they were then returned back into the Roads, and were loaded by the swarm of Chinese manned lighters, which ferried their cargo from the godowns located deep in the Singapore river, tin ingots and rubber being major exports.
For the Singapore Harbour Board, the rising flow of war materials was an ever-increasing challenge. To continue quick ship turnaround was taking some considerable planning now, as always, the bottleneck was the unloading at the wharfs. Some investment was being made on improving rail sidings, providing more and different goods wagons, extending godown’s, and improved training of stevedores on handling specific special loads.
The Board employed directly and indirectly about 11,000, the officers and staff comprised 120 Europeans and approximately 1,900 Eurasians, Chinese, Indians and Malays, but there were over 4,000 wharf coolies and over 5,000 skilled artisans of trades, their assistants, and labourers in the Dockyard Department. The Singapore Harbour Board also had a dedicated police force and fire brigade.
In addition, the port offered superb ship repair facilities, with two dry docks, Victoria and Albert, both just under 500ft long, on the eastern side, and on the western side another three, No.1, at 400ft, No.2, at 460ft and the enormous Kings Dock, built in 1913 to Admiralty specifications at 879ft, which had been the forerunner for servicing ships of the Royal Navy before the building of the Naval Base on the other side of the island, complete with its own King George VI graving dock.
Pre-war, it had been mostly oil tankers, which serviced the oil refineries and farms of the area, as the main customers, but increasingly, war work had brought other ships in. Now there was always a few ships anchored in the Roads, awaiting their turn in one of these dry docks. Yes, Singapore was a very busy port!
The old rusty tramp steamer, Georg Sibbern, dropped anchor in the roads off Keppel Harbour to await a quayside berth, its Norwegian flag occasionally fluttering in a dying breeze, the heat of the midday sun beating down on her. She had completed an uneventful voyage from Vancouver, Canada, enroute she had stopped in Hong Kong, and picked up half a dozen British Forces personnel, two of whom were promoted to new roles in India, three to the OCTU in Singapore, and a sixth being invalided out, back to the UK.
She was one of a number of tramp steamers chartered by the Canadian Government, for a series of voyages to Singapore, further proof of their commitment to contributing to the defence of Malaya. In her holds were Canadian built light and medium trucks, assorted steel products, cement, telephone wire and other basic war material. All to feed the hungry demands of the developing defences. Her captain expected they would be turned around in about four to five days, rubber and tin would part-fill his holds on the return voyage.
Keppel Roads was busy, numerous ships at anchor, some like the Georg Sibbern awaiting a wharf to become free to unload at, while others had already been unloaded, and such was the custom in Singapore, that they were then returned back into the Roads, and were loaded by the swarm of Chinese manned lighters, which ferried their cargo from the godowns located deep in the Singapore river, tin ingots and rubber being major exports.
For the Singapore Harbour Board, the rising flow of war materials was an ever-increasing challenge. To continue quick ship turnaround was taking some considerable planning now, as always, the bottleneck was the unloading at the wharfs. Some investment was being made on improving rail sidings, providing more and different goods wagons, extending godown’s, and improved training of stevedores on handling specific special loads.
The Board employed directly and indirectly about 11,000, the officers and staff comprised 120 Europeans and approximately 1,900 Eurasians, Chinese, Indians and Malays, but there were over 4,000 wharf coolies and over 5,000 skilled artisans of trades, their assistants, and labourers in the Dockyard Department. The Singapore Harbour Board also had a dedicated police force and fire brigade.
In addition, the port offered superb ship repair facilities, with two dry docks, Victoria and Albert, both just under 500ft long, on the eastern side, and on the western side another three, No.1, at 400ft, No.2, at 460ft and the enormous Kings Dock, built in 1913 to Admiralty specifications at 879ft, which had been the forerunner for servicing ships of the Royal Navy before the building of the Naval Base on the other side of the island, complete with its own King George VI graving dock.
Pre-war, it had been mostly oil tankers, which serviced the oil refineries and farms of the area, as the main customers, but increasingly, war work had brought other ships in. Now there was always a few ships anchored in the Roads, awaiting their turn in one of these dry docks. Yes, Singapore was a very busy port!
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MWI 41033112 The Hurricanes Are On Their Way
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
1941, Monday 31 March;
The Chiefs meeting with Churchill this morning hadn’t gone particularly well for Air Marshal Portal so far, Bomber Command’s numbers weren’t growing quickly enough, and the results of their raids were very disappointing. Fighter Command had conducted a number of ‘Circus’ Operations, also with little effect, and he’d only just recently saved Coastal Command from disbandment, by agreeing to give operational control over to the Admiralty.
He’d already made some recovery in Churchill’s eyes, promising to transfer a couple of squadrons of Hurricanes to Malta, but now came his chance to turn the day around, as the agenda moved onto the Far East. He started out with a little history lesson, as to how the Far East had come to be given the Brewster Buffalo, owing to its poor performance compared to European fighters. And how events over Northern France in the Circus or Rhubarb operations were exposing the inadequacies of the Hurricane. Home defence was now secured, at least for the foreseeable future, with over seventy-five daylight fighter squadrons, with more planned, and the future in Europe was the Spitfire
However, he said, the Hurricane was an industrial production success, being of relatively simple construction, and ease of manufacturing, it was costing only two thirds of the price of a Spitfire. Furthermore, this also meant repairs could in many cases be conducted in squadron workshops, while its ability to operate on more primitive airfields made it easier to deploy.
With this in mind, and the increase in production, with the Canadian Car and Foundry in Ontario now producing Hurricanes, he proposed that the Far East fighter squadrons be equipped with the Hurricane. And to help with shipping demands, he proposed they be equipped from Canada, shipped out of Vancouver, where there was no need of convoys, allowing a more efficient delivery. They would have to have their Merlin XX engines still sent from the UK, but Portal thought he’d let that slip by for now. It would also placate Park out in Singapore, who was in danger of becoming troublesome, as well as Lord Gort, demonstrating the RAF’s commitment to Far East defence.
He then followed that up with painting a picture of a strategic reserve for the Middle East, trained and held in the Far East, using the newly forming Article XV squadrons. He thought they might be able to start deliveries in June. In addition, he thought he would be able to spare an RAF Hurricane Wing in the summer, taking into account of the number of planned squadrons they had coming through. Even before he had finished talking, he knew he had Churchill on side, in part because of the plan, and in part because of a bit of lobbying from Lord Beaverbrook, who he’d spoken to on Saturday night.
But Portel was still new to this game, and the wily old fox Pound had stolen some of his glory, when he mentioned the now redundant Buffalo’s. Portal had already outlined how the surplus Buffalos could be used for home defence squadrons in India and Australia, but Pound had suggested a few, say 20 could be donated to the FAA, converted to carrier operations, and a fighter squadron raised with newly trained Dominion pilots around a small cadre, which could be deployed on HMS Hermes, thereby giving the Eastern Fleet a protective CAP when at sea. At the same time, they and a second newly raised TSR squadron of Swordfish, once trained, could help create a small FAA strategic reserve, allowing the Fleet to draw replacement crews from, for operations in the Eastern Mediterranean. Churchill, as always, warming to any attack minded gesture, grunted his approval.
The Chiefs meeting with Churchill this morning hadn’t gone particularly well for Air Marshal Portal so far, Bomber Command’s numbers weren’t growing quickly enough, and the results of their raids were very disappointing. Fighter Command had conducted a number of ‘Circus’ Operations, also with little effect, and he’d only just recently saved Coastal Command from disbandment, by agreeing to give operational control over to the Admiralty.
He’d already made some recovery in Churchill’s eyes, promising to transfer a couple of squadrons of Hurricanes to Malta, but now came his chance to turn the day around, as the agenda moved onto the Far East. He started out with a little history lesson, as to how the Far East had come to be given the Brewster Buffalo, owing to its poor performance compared to European fighters. And how events over Northern France in the Circus or Rhubarb operations were exposing the inadequacies of the Hurricane. Home defence was now secured, at least for the foreseeable future, with over seventy-five daylight fighter squadrons, with more planned, and the future in Europe was the Spitfire
However, he said, the Hurricane was an industrial production success, being of relatively simple construction, and ease of manufacturing, it was costing only two thirds of the price of a Spitfire. Furthermore, this also meant repairs could in many cases be conducted in squadron workshops, while its ability to operate on more primitive airfields made it easier to deploy.
With this in mind, and the increase in production, with the Canadian Car and Foundry in Ontario now producing Hurricanes, he proposed that the Far East fighter squadrons be equipped with the Hurricane. And to help with shipping demands, he proposed they be equipped from Canada, shipped out of Vancouver, where there was no need of convoys, allowing a more efficient delivery. They would have to have their Merlin XX engines still sent from the UK, but Portal thought he’d let that slip by for now. It would also placate Park out in Singapore, who was in danger of becoming troublesome, as well as Lord Gort, demonstrating the RAF’s commitment to Far East defence.
He then followed that up with painting a picture of a strategic reserve for the Middle East, trained and held in the Far East, using the newly forming Article XV squadrons. He thought they might be able to start deliveries in June. In addition, he thought he would be able to spare an RAF Hurricane Wing in the summer, taking into account of the number of planned squadrons they had coming through. Even before he had finished talking, he knew he had Churchill on side, in part because of the plan, and in part because of a bit of lobbying from Lord Beaverbrook, who he’d spoken to on Saturday night.
But Portel was still new to this game, and the wily old fox Pound had stolen some of his glory, when he mentioned the now redundant Buffalo’s. Portal had already outlined how the surplus Buffalos could be used for home defence squadrons in India and Australia, but Pound had suggested a few, say 20 could be donated to the FAA, converted to carrier operations, and a fighter squadron raised with newly trained Dominion pilots around a small cadre, which could be deployed on HMS Hermes, thereby giving the Eastern Fleet a protective CAP when at sea. At the same time, they and a second newly raised TSR squadron of Swordfish, once trained, could help create a small FAA strategic reserve, allowing the Fleet to draw replacement crews from, for operations in the Eastern Mediterranean. Churchill, as always, warming to any attack minded gesture, grunted his approval.
Now let's make sure Indomitable sails a little bit further away from the coral reefs of Jamaica.
A force of 2nd rate Hurricanes will do even better. With more in theater and an extra Wing there should be no issues having a squadron or two provide fighter cover to Force ZEven a few third-rate fighters can do wonders against an escorted force of bombers
From what I remember reading the Hurris were able to match the Japanese fighters to some degree it took the arrival of Spitfires to beat the Japanese air power
Buffalos of the RAF were not equipped with hooks for carrier landing. Which mean they'll need some shipped from the US or jury-rig some on the airframes selected to operate from Hermes. Given the British managed to sucessfully convert the land-based hurricane to carrier operations, I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to re-convert a couple Buffaloes to their original configuration. The problem is of course that with a hook and a raft on bord, they'll be heavier.
In my opinion, the Buffaloes on Hermes would probably not be enough, especially if you consider the low speed of Hermes. Better to have the 45 aircrafts, 30 knots Indomitable arrive with PoW and Repulse to have a fighting chance to survive the initial Japanese attack. That's not even mentionning that if Adm Philipps had had the right information on hand when he left Singapore he would have had ground based air cover to protect his command.
Anyway, I guess we shall see!
Cryhavoc101
Donor
Buffalos over force Z probably would have saved it
The Buffalo might have been a porcine aircraft but verses twin engine bombers it would have been enough
Certainly they could not have attacked as effectively with a flight of fighters in the area and would have found it difficult to conduct hammer and anvil torpedo attacks with F2As shooting them full of .50 cal holes.
I think many of the British Buffalos dispensed with the .50 cals and replaced them with .303in MGs (which brought their own problems with the guns)...
Its possible, the Hermes won't save Force Z, she's far too small and is little better than a CVE by this stage, but Hurricanes in the Far East? With a more air minded man in charge of the airforce over there? One who knows how effective aircraft are against ships, having seen it during the Convoy battles during the Battle of Britain? Oh yes, that will result in butterflies. IIRC it seems that Force Z will also have more ships with it than just Repulse and PoW and the small number of DD's, but some cruisers too. This all adds to the AA screen for the big ships. And if Indomitable's there...this might also change things at the other end.
Because if the IJN knows a carriers in the region, they could well send out escorts with the attack against Force Z, and if this is the case, it would take the Hurricanes from land bases and whatever the Indomitable is carrying (Sea Hurricanes although at this point they're basically the Mk1 Hurricane with a tail hook) and Fulmar's all together to fend off that. Because the Zero's better than the current marks of Hurricanes and far better than the Sea Hurricane because it was basically an early model 'cane with a tail hook and that was about it. It was a bit iffy against German and Italian aircraft in the Med, and the Zero is an unknown quantity at this time, but we know how dangerous it is.
According to the RAF, the removal of four MGs from the wings made the Hurricane as nearly as good as a Zero in the turn. Having read about it's performance over Sumatra and Burma, it was quite a good fighter, much better than a Buffalo and in the hands of veteran pilots, which it was, fresh from the BoB, well it might do better than most people here think. We need to let the author develop his storyline without interference.
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Hi guys, thank you all for your comments, they're most welcome, it helps motive my writing. However in your comments is the reference to a "Force Z" which has me perplexed. I've checked with the Admiralty which uses this convention of naming task groups, and they assure me there is no Force Z. We do have a Force T operating in the Indian Ocean.
For the naval side of the operation ' Force T ' was formed. It was made up of the aircraft carrier HMS Hermes (Capt. R.F.J. Onslow, DSC, MVO, RN), heavy cruisers HMS Shropshire (Capt. J.H. Edelsten, RN, Senior Officer), HMS Hawkins (Capt. H.P.K. Oram, RN), light cruisers HMS Ceres (Capt. E.G. Abbott, AM, RN), HMS Capetown (Capt. P.H.G. James, RN) and the destroyer HMS Kandahar (Cdr. W.G.A. Robson, DSO, RN).
uboat.net
and obviously Force H operating out of Gibraltar, but no Force Z, so I'll assume your all in the game of pulling my leg.
For the naval side of the operation ' Force T ' was formed. It was made up of the aircraft carrier HMS Hermes (Capt. R.F.J. Onslow, DSC, MVO, RN), heavy cruisers HMS Shropshire (Capt. J.H. Edelsten, RN, Senior Officer), HMS Hawkins (Capt. H.P.K. Oram, RN), light cruisers HMS Ceres (Capt. E.G. Abbott, AM, RN), HMS Capetown (Capt. P.H.G. James, RN) and the destroyer HMS Kandahar (Cdr. W.G.A. Robson, DSO, RN).
HMS Hermes (D 95) of the Royal Navy - British Aircraft Carrier of the Hermes class - Allied Warships of WWII - uboat.net
The U-boat War in World War Two (Kriegsmarine, 1939-1945) and World War One (Kaiserliche Marine, 1914-1918) and the Allied efforts to counter the threat. This section includes over 21.000 Allied Warships and over 11.000 Allied Commanders of WWII, from the US Navy, Royal Navy, Royal Canadian...
and obviously Force H operating out of Gibraltar, but no Force Z, so I'll assume your all in the game of pulling my leg.
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
I'm not going to comment on the Hurricane at the moment, there will be lots of opportunity for that later. I haven't felt that there has been any interference, and welcome comment, and indeed offered speculation in development of the storyline helps create red herrings, and thus adding to the excitement of the storyline as it doesn't always follow the predicted course. I'm mostly written up to the outbreak of war with Japan, excepting the North Africa stories which I struggle to write, and Japan's developing policy towards war, which is more than difficult for me to write, indeed stories from a Japanese perspective are harder, overall. So we should move forward quite quickly, until we stumble upon another North Africa story, which I keep putting off writing.
Pedestal did ok against raids escorted by 109F's, surely at some point "even more superior than that" ceases to be a meaningful difference?
Otoh that was a multi-carrier maximum effort by the FAA - and given the loss of the fighter direction cruisers, we don't know how well control of / coordination with land based RAF fighters would have worked.
All I'm going to say is that Force Z was a leg pull in terms of failures at all levels.Hi guys, thank you all for your comments, they're most welcome, it helps motive my writing. However in your comments is the reference to a "Force Z" which has me perplexed. I've checked with the Admiralty which uses this convention of naming task groups, and they assure me there is no Force Z. We do have a Force T operating in the Indian Ocean.
For the naval side of the operation ' Force T ' was formed. It was made up of the aircraft carrier HMS Hermes (Capt. R.F.J. Onslow, DSC, MVO, RN), heavy cruisers HMS Shropshire (Capt. J.H. Edelsten, RN, Senior Officer), HMS Hawkins (Capt. H.P.K. Oram, RN), light cruisers HMS Ceres (Capt. E.G. Abbott, AM, RN), HMS Capetown (Capt. P.H.G. James, RN) and the destroyer HMS Kandahar (Cdr. W.G.A. Robson, DSO, RN).
HMS Hermes (D 95) of the Royal Navy - British Aircraft Carrier of the Hermes class - Allied Warships of WWII - uboat.net
The U-boat War in World War Two (Kriegsmarine, 1939-1945) and World War One (Kaiserliche Marine, 1914-1918) and the Allied efforts to counter the threat. This section includes over 21.000 Allied Warships and over 11.000 Allied Commanders of WWII, from the US Navy, Royal Navy, Royal Canadian...
and obviously Force H operating out of Gibraltar, but no Force Z, so I'll assume your all in the game of pulling my leg.