If the Franco-Thai War has gone ahead as OTL, it should be a major warning flag in Malaya, pointing up the weakness of the French in Indochina, the willingness of the Japanese to meddle in the area and the unreliability of the Thais. Japanese bases on the Gulf of Thailand and the potential for a land attack down the Isthmus change the strategic picture quite a bit...
Malaya What If
- Thread starter Fatboy Coxy
- Start date
Has Gort had any contact with the British Minister to Thailand, Josiah Crosby? ISTR he was OTL insistent that Phibun could be brought on-side if sufficient force could be committed - it was only as 1941 wore on that it became clear that Britain could not put enough into the theatre to guarantee Thai independence that Phibun swung more towards Japan.
Is the presence of Gort and the increase in committment to Singapore and Malaya going to have a significant impact on the attitude of the Thai government? Thai troops initially resisted the Japanese incursion OTL; if an ur-Matador is a realistic prospect, might it be with active Thai support if Britain looks serious enough?
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
It would have been a nice morale boost, especially to the Free French, but in all honesty, she wasn't a first rate ship now, possibly comparable to the Dutch ship HNLMS Java. Convoy escort, shore bombardment would have been her lot, unless she was unfortunate to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. More useful might have been the two Bougainville class colonial aviso's, or sloops, Dumont d'Urville and Amiral Charner. which had also been present at the Ko Chang battle. These would have made useful ASW escorts, especially with their long range.
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Yes he most certainly has contact with Sir Josiah Crosby, who was quite a character back in the day. Crosby is playing his part, on behalf of Britain, along with the US, in the courtship of Thailand, vying with Japan's efforts. I'll trot out the standard line, stories to come in due course.
MWI 41012000 The Indian HAA Regiments
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
1941, Monday 20 January;
It wasn’t the best of ideas but as always needs must, and so it would come about. Anti- Aircraft artillery for the Far East was a problem, especially with the Blitz in full swing, demanding all the guns the army could get. Fighting over Britain’s skies was at the cutting edge of technology, and strategy in aerial warfare, and part of that said the old 3-inch gun was now obsolete, to be quickly phased out. Many of these guns were finding themselves onto the smaller Royal Navy escorts, or larger auxiliary ships, however there still remained a significant number left over.
And so, the plan came about, they weren’t good enough for Britain or the Med, but in the Far East, where they might not even have a war, they’d be fine. And who to man them? Well, the main resource of manpower in the Far East was India, so they would man them. And thus, the idea became born into a plan of raising Indian HAA regiments for deployment in the Far East.
Six Indian HAA Regts were to be raised in Malaya, building from the initial 1 Indian HAA Regt, which would throw off new batteries as it trained officers and men. Officers and NCOs were drawn from RA and HKSRA units both in Singapore and Hong Kong, as trainers, A battery of 3-inch guns, in Singapore, where the 1st HAA was to be based, borrowed from the HKSRA was the start.
Because there wasn’t a bottomless pit of volunteers from the traditional recruiting grounds of the Indian Army, the Northwest, these volunteer recruits would be drawn from other areas, with recruitment focused on Bombay, Madras and Calcutta. This posed a problem, The HKSRA manpower was drawn from North-West India, meaning that although British officers serving in the HKSRA could be transferred across, Indian Officers and NCOs couldn’t, it wasn’t practice to mix racial groups within a formation. Furthermore, there wasn’t anywhere enough British Officers available to be transferred over.
The solution was a painful one, promising recruits were quickly promoted to Naik, in the hope they developed into good NCOs, and the more senior NCOs were Indian ex-HKSRA on secondment. For Officers, there were few ECOs from the UK who could be spared, the Indian infantry battalions wanted all they could get, so the junior officers were white, locally trained OCTU cadets, often middle-aged men keen to do their bit, who after their OCTU training, would return to their civilian occupation, and report back to the battalion on Saturdays for military exercise.
All units were to be equipped with 3-inch AA guns, 8 guns per battery, but most regiments would have only limited mobility as their role would be static defence. The guns were being shipped in from the UK, along with the associated equipment and a few vehicles. Basic training was given and then on the guns and equipment issued to the regiments. Some small arms training was given, a few Lewis guns were provided for low level air defence, and small arms for local security.
Their OOB was to be as follows
1 Indian HAA Regt had 1, 16 & 18 HAA Btys,
2 Indian HAA Regt had 2, 7 & 11 HAA Btys,
3 Indian HAA Regt had 3, 8 & 12 HAA Btys,
4 Indian HAA Regt had 4, 9, & 14 HAA Btys
5 Indian HAA Regt had 5, 10 & 15 HAA Btys.
6 Indian HAA Regt had 6, 13 & 17 HAA Btys
On becoming operational, one regiment would be sent to Burma, the rest deployed in Malaya. The hopes and expectation were that they would continue to train and improve after deployment.
It wasn’t the best of ideas but as always needs must, and so it would come about. Anti- Aircraft artillery for the Far East was a problem, especially with the Blitz in full swing, demanding all the guns the army could get. Fighting over Britain’s skies was at the cutting edge of technology, and strategy in aerial warfare, and part of that said the old 3-inch gun was now obsolete, to be quickly phased out. Many of these guns were finding themselves onto the smaller Royal Navy escorts, or larger auxiliary ships, however there still remained a significant number left over.
And so, the plan came about, they weren’t good enough for Britain or the Med, but in the Far East, where they might not even have a war, they’d be fine. And who to man them? Well, the main resource of manpower in the Far East was India, so they would man them. And thus, the idea became born into a plan of raising Indian HAA regiments for deployment in the Far East.
Six Indian HAA Regts were to be raised in Malaya, building from the initial 1 Indian HAA Regt, which would throw off new batteries as it trained officers and men. Officers and NCOs were drawn from RA and HKSRA units both in Singapore and Hong Kong, as trainers, A battery of 3-inch guns, in Singapore, where the 1st HAA was to be based, borrowed from the HKSRA was the start.
Because there wasn’t a bottomless pit of volunteers from the traditional recruiting grounds of the Indian Army, the Northwest, these volunteer recruits would be drawn from other areas, with recruitment focused on Bombay, Madras and Calcutta. This posed a problem, The HKSRA manpower was drawn from North-West India, meaning that although British officers serving in the HKSRA could be transferred across, Indian Officers and NCOs couldn’t, it wasn’t practice to mix racial groups within a formation. Furthermore, there wasn’t anywhere enough British Officers available to be transferred over.
The solution was a painful one, promising recruits were quickly promoted to Naik, in the hope they developed into good NCOs, and the more senior NCOs were Indian ex-HKSRA on secondment. For Officers, there were few ECOs from the UK who could be spared, the Indian infantry battalions wanted all they could get, so the junior officers were white, locally trained OCTU cadets, often middle-aged men keen to do their bit, who after their OCTU training, would return to their civilian occupation, and report back to the battalion on Saturdays for military exercise.
All units were to be equipped with 3-inch AA guns, 8 guns per battery, but most regiments would have only limited mobility as their role would be static defence. The guns were being shipped in from the UK, along with the associated equipment and a few vehicles. Basic training was given and then on the guns and equipment issued to the regiments. Some small arms training was given, a few Lewis guns were provided for low level air defence, and small arms for local security.
Their OOB was to be as follows
1 Indian HAA Regt had 1, 16 & 18 HAA Btys,
2 Indian HAA Regt had 2, 7 & 11 HAA Btys,
3 Indian HAA Regt had 3, 8 & 12 HAA Btys,
4 Indian HAA Regt had 4, 9, & 14 HAA Btys
5 Indian HAA Regt had 5, 10 & 15 HAA Btys.
6 Indian HAA Regt had 6, 13 & 17 HAA Btys
On becoming operational, one regiment would be sent to Burma, the rest deployed in Malaya. The hopes and expectation were that they would continue to train and improve after deployment.
"Good enough for Malaya" strikes again, I see. And you can't really blame the top brass in London, who in the last nine months have lost a pile of equipment in France, endured the Blitz and are now scrambling to equip escorts for the Battle of the Atlantic. The shortage of experienced manpower - and the fact that they're scrambling for recruits even in India - is just as worrying. I doubt that a battery or two of obsolete guns with grass-green crews is going to worry the IJAAF all that much, but this may well be a case where it is better to put something in the sky than nothing. If nothing else, the sight and sound of AA guns firing back should help the morale of troops under air attack.
Ramontxo
Donor
I agree except that it is not "a battery or two" it is fifteen batteries of eight gun each. That is 120 guns. Flack against aircraft is always an attrition battle which is the worst possible one for the Japanese Empire. And as the fight progress so will the gun crews skills. IMHO this is bad news for the Empire
If these new AA regiments are supplied with a reasonably sufficient supply of ammunition and there is enough time left to provide at least a modicum of training for the AA batteries' crews then they might not do too badly. Also factor in the relative vulnerability of the Japanese army and navy airplanes. No armour and especially no rubber lined self-sealing fuel tanks means even just one piece of red hot shrapnel in the right place can destroy an airplane. The IJAAF and IJNAF will take higher losses. How much higher.........?
MWI 41012307 The Fledgling
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
1941, Thursday 23 January;
The young sergeant’s head throbbed mercilessly, testament to the quantity of Sake he had consumed last night. He could remember the formal celebration meal, the speeches, and toasts, and earlier in the day their arrival to the unit, being assigned quarters, and meeting his flight leader. But he couldn’t remember much more afterwards except agreeing to go in that bar with the big moon sign outside. How he got back to camp, he had no idea, but he was here now and in one piece, and looking at the other new arrivals, was doing better than them.
Sergeant Okazaki had graduated from flying school in late December, and had experienced the proudest moment in his life when on parade, he was given his wings, one of twenty, in front of the entire flying school, by the commandant. These successful cadets had brought the total number of pilots trained by the Army to around 750 for the year. And although they had flown a considerable number of hours, they still needed operational and tactical training in combat aircraft, which their new unit would provide.
Four of them had been posted to the 11th Sentai, based in Harbin, Manchuria, a fighter unit equipped with the Ki-27b, which had seen action against the Soviets and also later in China. She had recently returned back to Manchuria, in part because the Chinese theatre of operations had quietened down, and in part to regroup. The journey from Japan by ship to Korea and then train up into Manchuria had been an eye opener for him, having never left Japan before. And the cold, it shook him just how cold it was, coming from the town of Kurume on the island of Kyushu, he’d never experienced such cold winds.
But nevertheless, he was here, and was looking forward to the intense training that had been promised, to turn him into one of Japan’s finest fight pilots, and to serve his Emperor. But for now, raw as he was, he was, as his flight leader called him, just a fledgling.
The young sergeant’s head throbbed mercilessly, testament to the quantity of Sake he had consumed last night. He could remember the formal celebration meal, the speeches, and toasts, and earlier in the day their arrival to the unit, being assigned quarters, and meeting his flight leader. But he couldn’t remember much more afterwards except agreeing to go in that bar with the big moon sign outside. How he got back to camp, he had no idea, but he was here now and in one piece, and looking at the other new arrivals, was doing better than them.
Sergeant Okazaki had graduated from flying school in late December, and had experienced the proudest moment in his life when on parade, he was given his wings, one of twenty, in front of the entire flying school, by the commandant. These successful cadets had brought the total number of pilots trained by the Army to around 750 for the year. And although they had flown a considerable number of hours, they still needed operational and tactical training in combat aircraft, which their new unit would provide.
Four of them had been posted to the 11th Sentai, based in Harbin, Manchuria, a fighter unit equipped with the Ki-27b, which had seen action against the Soviets and also later in China. She had recently returned back to Manchuria, in part because the Chinese theatre of operations had quietened down, and in part to regroup. The journey from Japan by ship to Korea and then train up into Manchuria had been an eye opener for him, having never left Japan before. And the cold, it shook him just how cold it was, coming from the town of Kurume on the island of Kyushu, he’d never experienced such cold winds.
But nevertheless, he was here, and was looking forward to the intense training that had been promised, to turn him into one of Japan’s finest fight pilots, and to serve his Emperor. But for now, raw as he was, he was, as his flight leader called him, just a fledgling.
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Actually he may not in my timeline, as I'm introducing a number of characters into the story to tell things at a more personal level. However, its going to be a log war for Japan, and his likelihood of seeing the war out must been slim.
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Its not just the amount of training they had, but pre-war, Japan wasn't geared up to train a lot of pilots, and also having a very high failure threshold, meant there was a lot of wasted effort, so consequently the pool of trained pilots was very small.
Doesn't help as well that the Rivalry between the Army and Navy will effect which resources and manpower go were as well.
And he is not 2 days before retirementWell, he hasn't had a romantic affair yet, so its not certain
Also interesting that we're into 1941 and the IJAAF's front-line units are still flying the Ki-27 (the Hayabusa won't arrive until the summer). British Intelligence is probably telling Gort and Dowding that their new-generation Buffalo and Hurricane fighter will have a qualitative advantage over the Japanese...