Malaya What If

[HJ Tulp]

Cruisermafia 😄 😄 briliant.
I made an update to post #3395
It seems the Dutch submarines who were in the Far East were under Dutch command up to the start of December, and I would say the Dutch MLD float planes, Do24's and PBY's as well. Due to this I assume the whole rudel-divison tactic still excisted up to the end of November.

Maybe Helfrich will have an epiffany or a bad dream due to a wrong prepared sate ajam and realise he should not put all his cards on the nearly mithical might of force Z. Or more down to earth, had a sobering look at the American four stackers in Soerabaja or Balik Papan, who, according to an account of an Indo RNN sailor, looked as floating lumps of rust compared to the spick and span painted Dutch ships.

​

I would have to revisit Anten's book Navalisme nekt Onderzeeboot but the rudel-division tactic had been dying since the mid-'30s, receiving less and less attention year after year, in favour of exercises involving surface units, or submarines in service of surface units. I could see Ferwerda (Helfrich's predecessor) going for the roedel-tactic but not Helfrich. There is of course always a possibility that someone get's an epiphany but nothing in this TL suggests that would happen, so it would be a POD in itself.

 

[Butchpfd]

Hi Butchpfd, thank you for this. We have to be careful here, given the losses in battleships, a lot of these cruisers are liable to be held back, and I guess two or three with each carrier?, this limits what might go west.

Standard was 2 Heavy or Brooklyn class cruisers and 6 DDs with each Carrier. The cruisers at Pearl on 7 Dec. Were the relief cruisers for the Carrier groups. Indianapolis was training with a group of DMS. Part of the cruisers in port, would be assigned to CV Saratogs when she arrived from San Diego.

Pensacola was enroute with convoy to Philippines, and was approaching Samoa on 7 Dec. What most people do not realize is that the RAN provided substantial additional escort, most of the way from Samoa to Sydney then Brisbane. At Brisbane the aircraft were unloaded for assembly. The flight crews were with the planes, but the ground crews were already in the Philippines, having arrived withe Boise convoy on 30 November.

The commander of the U.S. artillery Brigade of 3 Battalions in the convoy, made the excellent call, delaying as it was, to unload all his guns, ammunition and personnel and reload in what passed for 1941 level combat loading, for movement forward. As it turned out the DEI. With guns, trucks, ammunition, and personnel on the same ships.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Hi Cryhavoc101, yes the 2nd Northamptonshire Yeomanry was about as unglamorous a fighting unit as you can get in the British Army. I chose them to limit ripples as much as possible, and I needed a trained tank regiment with Valentines, which was the tank I thought most likely to be sent to a backwater like Malaya. That's if you can get you head around the idea they would have ever sent any there at this stage of the war, hence my plausibility stretch.

Do we have any accounts from anyone serving in the regiment in Normandy, I might use them in Malaya, it's good to write from an individual's perspective. And do the Northampton's have any battle cry?

Found some war diaries here

Scroll down to you find them or look for WO 171/860 which is there war logs etc it only has 3 months but gives some names

How relevant that is for Late 1941???

 

[JWilly48519]

Browning's entire product line was available through their whole owned subsidiary, Frabrique Nationale of Belgium.

(This is a way-out-of-date response due to my just having reached the post in question as I read from the beginning; and, while this response isn't relevant to the Malaya/Singapore story, IMO it's important so that the factual error at hand doesn't cascade elsewhere.)

Browning did not own Fabrique Nationale of Belgium (hereafter FN Herstal), before or after WWII. That's backwards. FN Herstal is owned through a holding company by the government of Wallonia, the major north-central Belgian state. That's been the case since its founding in the 19th century. And, that same Belgian holding company also owns the US gun makers Browning and Remington. So it's more accurate to say, the other way around, that FN Herstal owns Browning.

Note however that the leading manufacturer of John-Browning-patent weapons in USA during WWII was Colt, not Browning. Colt was the primary USA licensee of the Browning patents, and sub-licensed the many additional 1940s makers of Browning-design guns, i.e. M2, M2HB, M1917, M1919, the aircraft versions, plus the personal weapons.

John Browning, and his son and other associated designers, had extremely close technical and business relationships with FN Herstal, including during periods when John Browning was out of favor among the US arms industry. From WWI through current times, FN Herstal has been the master worldwide owner of Browning patents.

 

[kelgar04]

Huh looking back a little bit I wonder if it would be possible to modify some of the Valentines in the field workshops to have a dozer blade or may be something like Hedge Row Cutters To help breaking through under growth or blockades.

 

[Ramp-Rat]

Huh looking back a little bit I wonder if it would be possible to modify some of the Valentines in the field workshops to have a dozer blade or may be something like Hedge Row Cutters To help breaking through under growth or blockades.

A dozer blade to be effective requires ether a PTO to drive a hydraulic pump and provide hydraulic power to move the blade, or a winch and frame to raise and lower the blade. And this is definitely not a field modification, or does the area have the parts to do so, so basically no dozer blades. As for a hedge row cutter, like the ones used in Normandy, someone has to see the need and have the idea, which is unlikely, so again I believe that the answer is no.

RR.

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

(This is a way-out-of-date response due to my just having reached the post in question as I read from the beginning; and, while this response isn't relevant to the Malaya/Singapore story, IMO it's important so that the factual error at hand doesn't cascade elsewhere.)

Browning did not own Fabrique Nationale of Belgium (hereafter FN Herstal), before or after WWII. That's backwards. FN Herstal is owned through a holding company by the government of Wallonia, the major north-central Belgian state. That's been the case since its founding in the 19th century. And, that same Belgian holding company also owns the US gun makers Browning and Remington. So it's more accurate to say, the other way around, that FN Herstal owns Browning.

Note however that the leading manufacturer of John-Browning-patent weapons in USA during WWII was Colt, not Browning. Colt was the primary USA licensee of the Browning patents, and sub-licensed the many additional 1940s makers of Browning-design guns, i.e. M2, M2HB, M1917, M1919, the aircraft versions, plus the personal weapons.

John Browning, and his son and other associated designers, had extremely close technical and business relationships with FN Herstal, including during periods when John Browning was out of favor among the US arms industry. From WWI through current times, FN Herstal has been the master worldwide owner of Browning patents.

Hi JWilly48519, thank you, duly noted, that's been worth a few bob over the years!

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

Found some war diaries here

Scroll down to you find them or look for WO 171/860 which is there war logs etc it only has 3 months but gives some names

How relevant that is for Late 1941???

Hi Cryhavoc101, thank you for this.

I try and incorporate real historical people into my stories, a lot of them that I've mentioned so far have slipped by unnoticed, but that's understandable, as they aren't well known. Unfortunalty sometimes I have to use fictional characters, not knowing anyone historical I can use, or they are slated to meet a sticky end early. That's all, no real need of 1944 tactics or knowledge!

 

[JWilly48519]

And then The Mole's Revenge question on why would you downgrade from a 40mm to a 20mm, losing range and weight of shell. To answer this, I'd turn to http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_2pounder_m2.php which mentions that the 2 Pdrs were prone to stoppages and jams. I could speculate that possibly it was easier to add more Oerlikon's, they may be an easier install, and keeping to one type of light AA helps with ammunition logistics. To add to my conundrum, I don't think the Royal Navy was overrun with spare 20mm Oerlikon mounts in the autumn of 1941, making the possibility of this change of armament less likely.

Moving forward with this, I've posted a question of what armament HMS Durban carried on a couple of forums, and will listen to what comes back from them, along with what you all might post, and depending on all of that, I might just edit out the light AA upgrade, as this is defiantly not storyline critical.

A late reply: a gun's effective AA ceiling is proportional to its muzzle velocity, secondarily affected by its HE shells' aerodynamics. The LV ("low velocity, i.e. original design) pompom MV was about 1700 fps. That of the Oerlikon was close to 2800 fps. And the Oerlikon shells had somewhat better aerodynamic coefficients.

Automatic AA guns often are fired across the flight path of an aircraft so that that aircraft must fly through the shell stream. In that AA-use-paradigm, the effectiveness of an automatic AA gun is a function of the density of its shell-stream...essentially, the separation-distance between sequential shells. If that distance is sufficiently short, at least one hit necessarily will occur. Quad and octuple pompoms of course had many guns firing, but each gun fired at 97 rounds/minute. An Oerlikon fired at 450 rounds/minute. So, a single Oerlikon generated a more dense shell stream than a quad pompom, and two Oerlikons a greater density than an octuple pompom. And, an Oerlikon installation with ammo and mount weighed maybe four hundred pounds, compared to ten tons for a quad pompom with ammo, mounts and cooling water.

And a further factor in the Oerlikon's favor early in the war was that LV pompoms did not have HE tracer available. No one in authority to fix that oversight realized how much of a crimp that was to both aiming effectiveness and the psychological intimidation of attacking pilots until other nations' gun-effectiveness was observed during WWII fighting.

A single hit by a two pounder pompom shell most often would bring down an early-WWII single engine aircraft, while several 20mm Oerlikon hits might be survivable...but one 20mm hit was enough to spoil the combat performance of most any single engine plane, and in any case the first order of business for AA guns is to get that first hit.

The HV version of the pompom, which began manufacture in the late 1930s, had somewhat better MV, a faster rate of fire...though both still were less than for the Oerlikon... and had tracer ammo. But, HV pompoms were uncommon until mid-war, and not retrofitted in place of existing LV models, which in any case continued to be built and installed.

United Kingdom / Britain 2-pdr [4 cm/39 (1.575")] QF Mark VIII - NavWeaps

www.navweaps.com

USA 20 mm/70 (0.79") Oerlikon Marks 1, 2, 3 and 4 - NavWeaps

www.navweaps.com

 

[Mike D]

For the tankers, wasn't there also the issue of basic ventilation in equatorial climate? The interior could become oven hot if they were buttoned up and crew performance suffered accordingly. Or, is that an overstated historical myth?

In Basra temperatures over 70C were being recorded in the back of Snatch, Warrior and 432s before they fitted aircon.

(Leading to the immortal line from a junior officer in the (from memory) Light Infantry that "it's a weird feeling coming out of air conditioning and getting into a hot, sweaty Snatch" pubished in the Vox Pop page at the back of Soldier magazine somewhere around 2003 - 05).

 

[Butchpfd]

I know. I know. Not a hair on his chinny-chinny-chin will be harmed.
But what if he does it to himself?

The decision in Washington is made to evacuate the USMC contingent
from Shanghai and Luzon. Relocate them and one of the USAAC P-40
squadrons to Davao or Del Monte for the P-40's. No further B-17 transits
for the forseeable future, so Del Monte is cleared off.

Pretty much a non starter, It would require a POD mid 1930s an da Change to War Plane Orange.
4thMarines had 2 Battalions each of 4 lettered and a Weapons Company @600 men each plus Regimental HQ in China, and there were the Olopango (Subic Bay) and Cavite Marine battalions. Each with 4 lettered companies and a lettered Weapons Company @700 men each. Hart had been shortstopping replacements to China since Summer and sending them to the P.I. Battalions.
The Olopango and Cavite Battalions each provided a 4 gun AAA Battery of 35 men detached from each company . Olopango had 4 batteries each of 4 U.S. Army M3 -3" Mobile AA Guns and 1 Battery (Weapons Co.) of 20 x .50 AAMG. Cavite had 3 batteries of fixed 3"/50 cal AAA, 1 semi fixed battery of 3"/23 Cal AAA, and 1 Battery (Weapons Co.) of 20 x .50 AAMG. The remainder of the Marines were Infantry only . When the 4th Marines arrived the Infantry companies became the 3rd Battalion of 4th and after Cavite was abandoned and the withdrawl to Bataan, the Cavite Gunners and Some infantry became cadre for the Composite 4th Battalion Cavite Marines, USN personnel and unattached Philippine Scouts.
4th Marines had nothing heavier then some 81 mm mortars, they had no attached artillery.
With the evacuation to Bataan the Olopango 3" batteries moved to cover Mariviales harbor and by order of Mac Arthur the 3rd Battalion and 2 batteries of the AA guns became defense of the HQ Hospital and QM area. Instead of using the 4th one of the best trained Infantry units he had as infantry, Mac Arthur ordered HQ, 1st and 2nd Battalions to Corrigidor as Beach defense.
To replace the 4th, the Army, Pre war would have had to send another Infantry regiment to the P.I., or in the late 1920s when the 14th Infantry was with drawn from China, send them to the Philippines. The marines would still have to come up with AAA to defend Olopanfo/Mirivales and Cavite.

Instead of returning to Cavite, the Fleet train goes to Davao, as well?
This is to secure the southern approaches to the PI. Ultimately, in time
of war, the Asiatic Fleet is part of the US Pacific Fleet.

As to moving to Davo, on 8 December, Davo was hit by aircraft from IJN CVL Ryujo which straffed and attacked the harbor, shipping there and the small landing strip of Philippines Airlines. So if train there it would be lost.

The SCAF USAFFE&PI blows a gasket. He wants everyone to know
he is being betrayed by The President, The Chaumont Gang and The Navy.
He announces that he would rather resign and serve as a private in HIS PI Army.
Resignation accepted.

If that challenge is thrown down, does FDR want to lose GEN Marshall, ADM's
Leahy, Stark, King and Kimmel? FDR can always have a nice fireside radio chat
about the Field Marshal angrily attacking the President a few years back.
I think that what was said is something like an American soldier muttering ,
as his final word, "Roosevelt, instead of MacArthur". This is as he is being bayoneted
to death. And it did happen.

The American public will understand why the General is being canned. They
like FDR. They are not so sure about the man who ordered the tanks forward and
over the US Veterans a few years back.

GEN MacArthur is sixty years old. He is no longer a fifty something as when
he was CoS US Army. Think "Angry Old Men". It happens as a matter of course.
Unlike those fine Australian reds, that Lord Gort samples, SCAF didn't mature well
with age.

If you still need to lose the PI, send GEN Freydenhall in his stead. Wow. Two birds
with one whine.

 

[Parma]

Looking at the NGA/DMA, NGA Chart 72105-Makassar Strait - Central Part, I see that there
is a narrow passage of about 20 nm in the Makassar Strait. The seas to the west are both restricted
and shallow. If PoW and Repulse are still available, can they cover most of the20 nm passage with
their main batteries?

https://www.stanfords.co.uk/NGA-Chart-72105-Makassar-Strait-Central-Part_9786000624125

The Makassar Straight narrows was one of the intendend hunting zones of the submarine rudels, to attack an invasion fleet

 

[vetinari]

I imagine they cracked the hatches every chance they could get just to get some air movement.

They did that and they had large canvas umbrellas as well, to shade the vehicle as much as possible. The sort you'll often see on side-walk cafes.

 

[JWilly48519]

Re: considerable Canadian involvement in supplying Singapore/Malaya, due to shorter distances plus (prior to commencement of hostilities with Japan) less need for convoying across the Pacific...specialist personnel, Hurricanes, trucks, strategic materials.

And re: provision of Valentines to the Singapore/Malaya defenses...from Britain via India.

1. During this time period, Canada was in production for Valentines. So, perhaps a few more tanks could come from that direction as well. Or maybe the Canadians could bash up a few essential-but-not-yet-available Valentine support vehicles...particularly, ARVs to pull breakdowns and combat damages back to a heavy road or rail siding from which they can be moved back to a repair depot; and dozer-blade tanks. Also spare engines, turrets, guns.

2. The Valentine of course is an Infantry Tank...heavily armored but slow. Excellent in support of an infantry attack, but not fast for exploiting penetrations or as a mobile reserve. It would be desirable to also have Cruiser Tanks, with greater speed.

Beginning in November, Canada separately began full production of the Ram...a Canadian design based on USA's proven-reliable M3 chassis and powertrain.

The first batch of Rams however was built before the intended six pounder guns had arrived from Britain, so they had two pounder guns installed.

Canadian authorities however were dismayed to discover that their quite nice tanks were not particularly wanted...especially not the first fifty, with two pounders.

But they could have been useful in Malaya, and perhaps DEI. Just as with Valentines, the two pounders would have been effective against any Japanese tank. And, eventually the Rams could have their two pounders replaced with British six pounders or US M6 75mm guns.

 

[JWilly48519]

It's already been mentioned that resourceful tankers sometimes rolled-their-own two pounder HE tank ammo by removing the AP projectiles from AP rounds, and replacing them with HE shells from 37mm infantry gun shells.

I believe another approach, with a better caliber match, was to use HE shells from two-pounder pompom ammo. That of course required a cooperative relationship with naval personnel who could trade you the pompom ammo in return for something you could provide. But military lore is full of stories of supply NCOs who are adept at such mutually beneficial reallocations of resources.

 

[AlanL]

It's already been mentioned that resourceful tankers sometimes rolled-their-own two pounder HE tank ammo by removing the AP projectiles from AP rounds, and replacing them with HE shells from 37mm infantry gun shells.

I believe another approach, with a better caliber match, was to use HE shells from two-pounder pompom ammo. That of course required a cooperative relationship with naval personnel who could trade you the pompom ammo in return for something you could provide. But military lore is full of stories of supply NCOs who are adept at such mutually beneficial reallocations of resources.

Although any navy supply PO who had served in the Med would be highly unlikely to be open to the idea of parting with AA ammunition.

 

[sonofpegasus]

Is it true that the shells from 40mm Bofer's guns could be mated with the case of the two pounder gun?
The Bofor's gun at 1,800 ft/s mv is some 200ft/s higher than the QF 2lb ammunition, so the shells should be able to cope with the firing stress from the 2lb cartridge case.
Over all the rounds have remarkably similar dimensions.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Re: considerable Canadian involvement in supplying Singapore/Malaya, due to shorter distances plus (prior to commencement of hostilities with Japan) less need for convoying across the Pacific...specialist personnel, Hurricanes, trucks, strategic materials.

And re: provision of Valentines to the Singapore/Malaya defenses...from Britain via India.

1. During this time period, Canada was in production for Valentines. So, perhaps a few more tanks could come from that direction as well. Or maybe the Canadians could bash up a few essential-but-not-yet-available Valentine support vehicles...particularly, ARVs to pull breakdowns and combat damages back to a heavy road or rail siding from which they can be moved back to a repair depot; and dozer-blade tanks. Also spare engines, turrets, guns.

2. The Valentine of course is an Infantry Tank...heavily armored but slow. Excellent in support of an infantry attack, but not fast for exploiting penetrations or as a mobile reserve. It would be desirable to also have Cruiser Tanks, with greater speed.

Beginning in November, Canada separately began full production of the Ram...a Canadian design based on USA's proven-reliable M3 chassis and powertrain.

The first batch of Rams however was built before the intended six pounder guns had arrived from Britain, so they had two pounder guns installed.

Canadian authorities however were dismayed to discover that their quite nice tanks were not particularly wanted...especially not the first fifty, with two pounders.

But they could have been useful in Malaya, and perhaps DEI. Just as with Valentines, the two pounders would have been effective against any Japanese tank. And, eventually the Rams could have their two pounders replaced with British six pounders or US M6 75mm guns.

The Valentine was used as a Cruiser tank in the Desert despite its slower speed - mainly because it was available in numbers and very reliable - unlike the actual cruisers which while faster were not so reliable.

I would think the other logical tank to send would be the Stuart - its available - suffered heavy losses at Gazalla edit at Crusader proving that while it was a well liked tank it was not so good vs European weapons

The RAM would make a good choice for a follow on design as would Canadian produced Valentine - but production of both would mean it could not arrive much before the OTL Malay campaign had finished.

And of course much of the Canadian Valentine production went to Russia

Perhaps a portion of it could go to the Far East -with a higher portion of them armed with an HE thrower rather than an AT gun such as the 3" gun or some such?

 

[pjmidd]

2. The Valentine of course is an Infantry Tank...heavily armored but slow. Excellent in support of an infantry attack, but not fast for exploiting penetrations or as a mobile reserve. It would be desirable to also have Cruiser Tanks, with greater speed.

Given the conditions in Malaya, not convinced a faster tank could use its speed much. Its bad roads and close terrain, not sweeping tank country.

 

[Merrick]

Given the conditions in Malaya, not convinced a faster tank could use its speed much. Its bad roads and close terrain, not sweeping tank country.

By the standards of WW2 Southeast Asia, the roads in Malaya are pretty good (it's one of the reasons the Japanese were able to use bicycle troops so effectively).
It's the omnipresent bridges and ferries that are going to be the problem.