Driftless
Donor
What was the motivation for that enthusiasm? A sense of patriotic duty, or a chance for some upcountry lad with limited prospects to get to have a foreign adventure, or a mix of both?
Malaya What If
- Thread starter Fatboy Coxy
- Start date
What was the motivation for that enthusiasm? A sense of patriotic duty, or a chance for some upcountry lad with limited prospects to get to have a foreign adventure, or a mix of both?
There was an article in the KLEI (the magazine for history teachers) some time ago. It says that between four and five hundred Surinamese men applied for service in the Prinses Irene Brigade after a call-up from a Suriname man who fled from occupied Netherlands to England. Only 15 of them were admitted because of racism. Service in the Asian theatre of operations was less obvious (because it meant fighting for a colony instead of the motherland) but a lot of Surinamese did join up because of loyalty to the Netherlands, the royal house and because the Dutch East Indies were part of the Kingdom. Others joined up because of a sense of adventure and career-opportunities (veterans were promised good pay and a place in the civil service after the war). 307 Surinamese soldiers fought in that part of the war under mainly Dutch non-coms and officers (there was only one Surinamese officer, the article says nothing on non-coms). The Surinamese contingent arrived in Australia in 1944. There they were supposed to preform police- and guard duties. On arrival they were told that they would be fighting the Japanese after all. After going through Jungle Warfare School a large part of the men were deemed physically unfit for combat duty. Those men were used as mechanics. Soldiers which had had higher education were promised a chance to become a pilot but in the end that was only for those deemed white enough. The Surinamese soldiers were added to the KNIL and divided in two companies of 160 Surinamese soldiers each (which is more than the aforementioned 307 soldiers). They would also be used in the DEI after the Japanese capitulation which didn't sit well with the Javanese-Surinamese soldiers (so there were at least some of them anyway) nor the others.
Errolwi
Monthly Donor
Did a few stay with the RAF at this late stage OTL, or are the ones used to form 5SQN RNZAF in Fiji staying at Singapore longer?
Historic cakes! by Errol Cavit, on FlickrFatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Hi Nevarinemex, your welcome
I'll leave this until we get closer to the time, to debate it
I don't think you appreciate how desperate Britain was, for America to join the war, Britain's hanging on, grateful for lend lease, but the prospect of having to fight Japan alone, is a nightmarish proposition. As much as FDR wanted to join the war, he had to lead the American people towards it carefully. Both Japan and Germany declared war on the USA, not the other way round. Trying to convince the American people to start a war with Japan, because of an incident in South East Asia, where Britain has attacked a neutral country, Thailand, and Japan has gone to her aid, is a very big ask. Now give the authority to Broke Popham to make the decision to pre-empt the Japanese and invade Thailand first, with all thats riding on that, and maybe you can see why there would be hesitation in his mind.
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Hi Errolwi,Did a few stay with the RAF at this late stage OTL, or are the ones used to form 5SQN RNZAF in Fiji staying at Singapore longer?
The last RAF unit operating the type was No. 205 Squadron RAF in Singapore which relinquished its aircraft in October 1941.
see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_Singapore
Nice looking Joe Blakes, a slice of fruit cake and a cup of tea, yum yum!
MWI 41091916 The Border Post
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Friday 19 September 1941;
Military life in Hong Kong was changing, with the departure of the Indian troops and the recruiting of Chinese into, not just the infantry regiment, but a lot of smaller units as well. Speaking Urdu wasn’t a requirement, indeed if you did, you’d probably be shipped out to Malaya, but speaking Chinese was becoming one. Likewise, the Chinese recruits with a good mastery of English, were in demand, and promotions were to be had because of it. Roles and responsibilities had to be taken over, and learnt again, as the Chinese soldier replaced the Indian one, with new Chinese recruits permeating into all the Infantry, Artillery, Engineer, Signal, Headquarters, Medical, RAOC, and RASC units.
And the Hong Kong Volunteer Defence Corps was undergoing transformation, as many of its members, with the necessary skills, found themselves transferred into the new units. The HKVDC also was now taking over the light fixed defences, namely the role that the Middlesex machine gun battalion had undertaken, providing manpower for Vickers machine gun equipped pill boxes across the island, static guards and some artillery batteries. These were still the weekend warriors, and had a surprisingly large number of older gentlemen, who were more than happy to man a fixed defence post. Every weekend, without fail, someone was on an exercise, being drilled through their roles.
Civilian life was changing as well, the going of the Indian Regiments signalling to a lot of Europeans that maybe wives and children should move to India or Australia, taking up the offer of free passage, from the Governor, although for many Europeans, there was an attitude of defiance, that if Japan attacked, they’d make her pay dearly to take Hong Kong. And for many Chinese, a chance to be part of something important in their lives, as they realised, they had the opportunity to have a far greater say in the running of the colony. Both by wearing a uniform, and secondly taking a greater interest in the General Council which the Governor was giving increasing powers to.
For the Royal Navy, however, with just the single destroyer HMS Thracian and two Rainbow class submarines left, apart from the scattering of smaller patrol ships, auxiliary minesweepers and gunboats, it was just a mundane role of watch and patrol. The shipyards were as busy as ever, with new construction, but no major Royal Navy ship would be docking here for refit/repair, just modifications to small auxiliary ships or the continuing general work with merchant shipping.
And for the RAF, there was even less of a role to be played, the only airfield in Hong Kong, at Kai Tak, played host to a trio of Vildebeest torpedo bombers, used as tugs for towing AA targets along with Maritime patrols, a small flight of old biplane aircraft for weekend flyers, and a single RN Walrus, along with the coming and going of the aircraft of several commercial airlines.
Brigadier Cedric Wallis, 45 years old, promoted in July from Lt Col of the departed 5/7th Rajput’s battalion, had the unenviable task of integrating the newly raised Chinese battalions into the infantry brigade, along with the Royal Scots. Like most senior officers, he spoke very little Chinese, and although he was learning phrases, all commands would be in English. But newly promoted equalled very enthusiastic, and with the black patch over his left eye socket, a memento from the first world war, he cut an almost piratical figure, and was to be seen everywhere, encouraging, supporting, but also quick to act on failures, as he won over his Chinese soldiers.
His commander, Major General Christopher Maltby, a 50-year-old professional soldier of the Indian Army, had taken over last month, and was as keen as Wallis in seeing the command exercise its roles. Both officers were very aware of their responsibilities and were under no illusion as to the likely outcome in any war with Japan. Indeed, in a private meeting with Lord Gort, it had been made quite clear to Maltby as to Churchill’s expectations should war come.
The other senior officers reporting to Maltby, were Col Henry Rose, the CO for the HKVDC, who had just been promoted on Sunday, and Brigadier Torquil McCleod, the commander of the Fixed Coastal Defences. Both of these officers were old China hands, having been out here before September 39, and although not fluent, could make themselves understood in Chinese. Their local knowledge was of immense help to Maltby.
Today, and the next two days, parts of the Garrison were on an exercise replicating the British response to a Japanese attack over the border, crossing the Shenzhen River over the railway bridge at Lo Wo. All drawn from the Hong Kong Chinese Regt (HKCR), present were two infantry companies, along with most of its Field Engineer company and a troop of four 4.5-inch Hows, (half the HKCR artillery battery), and the armoured car platoon. Practiced was the art of delay and destruction, mimicking blowing bridges, then keeping them under observed fire for as long as possible, and withdrawals.
At the border post itself, manned by a platoon of Royal Scots, the Japanese were quick to protest as to the warlike exercises going on so close to the border. This wasn’t entirely unexpected, they had already complained about the use of Chinese soldiers being used at the border post as being provocative, but didn’t seem to respond to the counter claim that Japanese aircraft were overflying British territory. Both sides were growing to realise that war was looking increasingly likely.
Military life in Hong Kong was changing, with the departure of the Indian troops and the recruiting of Chinese into, not just the infantry regiment, but a lot of smaller units as well. Speaking Urdu wasn’t a requirement, indeed if you did, you’d probably be shipped out to Malaya, but speaking Chinese was becoming one. Likewise, the Chinese recruits with a good mastery of English, were in demand, and promotions were to be had because of it. Roles and responsibilities had to be taken over, and learnt again, as the Chinese soldier replaced the Indian one, with new Chinese recruits permeating into all the Infantry, Artillery, Engineer, Signal, Headquarters, Medical, RAOC, and RASC units.
And the Hong Kong Volunteer Defence Corps was undergoing transformation, as many of its members, with the necessary skills, found themselves transferred into the new units. The HKVDC also was now taking over the light fixed defences, namely the role that the Middlesex machine gun battalion had undertaken, providing manpower for Vickers machine gun equipped pill boxes across the island, static guards and some artillery batteries. These were still the weekend warriors, and had a surprisingly large number of older gentlemen, who were more than happy to man a fixed defence post. Every weekend, without fail, someone was on an exercise, being drilled through their roles.
Civilian life was changing as well, the going of the Indian Regiments signalling to a lot of Europeans that maybe wives and children should move to India or Australia, taking up the offer of free passage, from the Governor, although for many Europeans, there was an attitude of defiance, that if Japan attacked, they’d make her pay dearly to take Hong Kong. And for many Chinese, a chance to be part of something important in their lives, as they realised, they had the opportunity to have a far greater say in the running of the colony. Both by wearing a uniform, and secondly taking a greater interest in the General Council which the Governor was giving increasing powers to.
For the Royal Navy, however, with just the single destroyer HMS Thracian and two Rainbow class submarines left, apart from the scattering of smaller patrol ships, auxiliary minesweepers and gunboats, it was just a mundane role of watch and patrol. The shipyards were as busy as ever, with new construction, but no major Royal Navy ship would be docking here for refit/repair, just modifications to small auxiliary ships or the continuing general work with merchant shipping.
And for the RAF, there was even less of a role to be played, the only airfield in Hong Kong, at Kai Tak, played host to a trio of Vildebeest torpedo bombers, used as tugs for towing AA targets along with Maritime patrols, a small flight of old biplane aircraft for weekend flyers, and a single RN Walrus, along with the coming and going of the aircraft of several commercial airlines.
Brigadier Cedric Wallis, 45 years old, promoted in July from Lt Col of the departed 5/7th Rajput’s battalion, had the unenviable task of integrating the newly raised Chinese battalions into the infantry brigade, along with the Royal Scots. Like most senior officers, he spoke very little Chinese, and although he was learning phrases, all commands would be in English. But newly promoted equalled very enthusiastic, and with the black patch over his left eye socket, a memento from the first world war, he cut an almost piratical figure, and was to be seen everywhere, encouraging, supporting, but also quick to act on failures, as he won over his Chinese soldiers.
His commander, Major General Christopher Maltby, a 50-year-old professional soldier of the Indian Army, had taken over last month, and was as keen as Wallis in seeing the command exercise its roles. Both officers were very aware of their responsibilities and were under no illusion as to the likely outcome in any war with Japan. Indeed, in a private meeting with Lord Gort, it had been made quite clear to Maltby as to Churchill’s expectations should war come.
The other senior officers reporting to Maltby, were Col Henry Rose, the CO for the HKVDC, who had just been promoted on Sunday, and Brigadier Torquil McCleod, the commander of the Fixed Coastal Defences. Both of these officers were old China hands, having been out here before September 39, and although not fluent, could make themselves understood in Chinese. Their local knowledge was of immense help to Maltby.
Today, and the next two days, parts of the Garrison were on an exercise replicating the British response to a Japanese attack over the border, crossing the Shenzhen River over the railway bridge at Lo Wo. All drawn from the Hong Kong Chinese Regt (HKCR), present were two infantry companies, along with most of its Field Engineer company and a troop of four 4.5-inch Hows, (half the HKCR artillery battery), and the armoured car platoon. Practiced was the art of delay and destruction, mimicking blowing bridges, then keeping them under observed fire for as long as possible, and withdrawals.
At the border post itself, manned by a platoon of Royal Scots, the Japanese were quick to protest as to the warlike exercises going on so close to the border. This wasn’t entirely unexpected, they had already complained about the use of Chinese soldiers being used at the border post as being provocative, but didn’t seem to respond to the counter claim that Japanese aircraft were overflying British territory. Both sides were growing to realise that war was looking increasingly likely.
Hi FC,
Is there any way you can breakdown what you have as Hong Kong Ground Forces OOB as of this update (your description of air and naval units was very specific so no elaboration needed there)? I'm just trying to assess total size of regular army units and HKVDC.
Thanks so much, Matthew. 🍻
Is there any way you can breakdown what you have as Hong Kong Ground Forces OOB as of this update (your description of air and naval units was very specific so no elaboration needed there)? I'm just trying to assess total size of regular army units and HKVDC.
Thanks so much, Matthew. 🍻
Y
He was quite serious
Yeah he arrived during an air raid and asked why the current commander didn’t Stop them.
He was quite serious
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Hi Matthew, I won't give you an OOB at the mo, but I will provide one on the eve of war. However, in summary, both Indian Infantry battalions have been withdrawn to Malaya, replaced by the recently raised 1st Bn Hong Kong Chinese Regt, with a second battalion hopefully forming before the end of the year. The Middlesex Machine Gun Bn has also gone to Malaya, replaced, in part, by the Hong Kong Volunteer Defence Corps (part time soldiers) who can only perform static defence. All three HKSRA Medium batteries (3rd, 4th and 25th) have gone (twelve 6-inch Hows in total) as well as all the 3.7-inch Hows of the 1st and 2nd Mountain HKSRA batteries (eight guns in total). The remaining eight guns (4.5-inch Hows) have been regrouped into a single Chinese manned field battery. Most of the gunners of the HKSRA (Hong Kong and Singapore Royal Artillery), who, incidentally are Indian, have left, joining the Indian Army, leaving a few to help train the new Chinese Recruits. The three static 6-inch coastal guns on Stonecutters Island (26 HKSRA Btty) have been sent to Malaya, the two 60 pounder guns re-sited on Hong Kong Island. Two 9.2-inch coastal guns have also been taken from batteries on Hong Kong Island. Furthermore, currently there is no recommendation for the dispatch of the Canadian C Force to Hong Kong. I would estimate a reduction of about 4,-5,000 men from the historical OOB.
MWI 41092012 Time For A Refit
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
1941, Saturday 20 September;
Captain Richard Onslow RN took the salute as he walked down the gangplank onto the quayside and the awaiting car, in Simonstown, South Africa. He had completed handing his command over to the dockyard, and was off for a two-week holiday, before coming back to dockyard duties. His ‘old girl’ was in for a refit, her ships company was being dismissed, many would be assigned to other ships, although a rump of professionals would be retained. Force T was now disbanded, the two destroyers back in Singapore, returning to fleet duties. The three FAA squadrons that had been training so hard were now land based, both air and ground crews, along with their Buffalos and Swordfish, at Sembawang, Singapore.
HMS Hermes was well due a refit, with her engines receiving a major overhaul, boilers cleaned, bottom scrapped, and all those little temporary repairs being made good. She used to be able to do 25 knots, well these days that wasn’t going to happen, but after the refit, she’d be good for a steady 20 knots, and capable of a sprint of maybe touching 24 knots in an emergency. However, the war had brought changes and Hermes needed to be able to meet the challenge those changes brought. Their Lordships in the Admiralty had seen the need to alter her configuration, with some modernisation to fulfil a more useful role. This was balanced with the practicalities of what was available, what the ‘old girl’ could take, in recognition of her age and condition.
The most radical change started out with the premise from the Admiralty that they could manage without the 5.5-inch guns, once they accepted that proposal, then the massive control room, held aloft by a giant tripod, could go, replaced by a single, lighter pole. Both the front and rear pairs of guns were to be replaced, gun for gun, by the three 4-inch Mk V’s currently positioned on the flight deck, and a fourth shipped in from the UK. The middle two 5.5-inch guns were each replaced by a quad 2 pdr Mk VIII Pom-Pom, again shipped from the UK, and all six sponson's were extended slightly outwards to allow the guns to achieve a maximum elevation of 60-degrees. Two Oerlikon 20 mm cannon were added to the front of the island superstructure, and another two, to its rear, along with a third pair mounted on the stern, under the flight deck. The new mast would now carry a Type 286P radar set, providing air and surface search capability, and two 284 AA gunnery control radar sets were also to be installed to help provide fire control.
More importantly, her aircraft handling capabilities were being altered, she would still have a squadron of Swordfish, probably a dozen aircraft, but now she would carry a small squadron of fighter aircraft as well. FAA 895 would operate about nine Brewster Buffalos, reconfigured for carrier operations, and to accommodate all these extra aircraft, she would be fitted with a crash barrier to allow a deck park and four outriggers, two in front of the bridge, and another two after the bridge, behind the crane, all on the right-hand side. Aviation fuel was being increased from 8,000 to 13,000 imperial gallons, at the cost of slightly reducing bunker fuel, although the reserve tanks on the port side were normally need to be kept full to help with stability, to counteract for the weight of the island. The refit would take about fifteen weeks, finishing at the beginning of the new year, and then she would have to work up, firstly with a new ships crew, and after transit to Singapore, a further period with her aircraft and crews. Finally, she would be able to take on a training role, of both on fighters and TSR, creating a useful pool of trained aircrew, while available to support operations in the Indian ocean, if so called upon.
Captain Richard Onslow RN took the salute as he walked down the gangplank onto the quayside and the awaiting car, in Simonstown, South Africa. He had completed handing his command over to the dockyard, and was off for a two-week holiday, before coming back to dockyard duties. His ‘old girl’ was in for a refit, her ships company was being dismissed, many would be assigned to other ships, although a rump of professionals would be retained. Force T was now disbanded, the two destroyers back in Singapore, returning to fleet duties. The three FAA squadrons that had been training so hard were now land based, both air and ground crews, along with their Buffalos and Swordfish, at Sembawang, Singapore.
HMS Hermes was well due a refit, with her engines receiving a major overhaul, boilers cleaned, bottom scrapped, and all those little temporary repairs being made good. She used to be able to do 25 knots, well these days that wasn’t going to happen, but after the refit, she’d be good for a steady 20 knots, and capable of a sprint of maybe touching 24 knots in an emergency. However, the war had brought changes and Hermes needed to be able to meet the challenge those changes brought. Their Lordships in the Admiralty had seen the need to alter her configuration, with some modernisation to fulfil a more useful role. This was balanced with the practicalities of what was available, what the ‘old girl’ could take, in recognition of her age and condition.
The most radical change started out with the premise from the Admiralty that they could manage without the 5.5-inch guns, once they accepted that proposal, then the massive control room, held aloft by a giant tripod, could go, replaced by a single, lighter pole. Both the front and rear pairs of guns were to be replaced, gun for gun, by the three 4-inch Mk V’s currently positioned on the flight deck, and a fourth shipped in from the UK. The middle two 5.5-inch guns were each replaced by a quad 2 pdr Mk VIII Pom-Pom, again shipped from the UK, and all six sponson's were extended slightly outwards to allow the guns to achieve a maximum elevation of 60-degrees. Two Oerlikon 20 mm cannon were added to the front of the island superstructure, and another two, to its rear, along with a third pair mounted on the stern, under the flight deck. The new mast would now carry a Type 286P radar set, providing air and surface search capability, and two 284 AA gunnery control radar sets were also to be installed to help provide fire control.
More importantly, her aircraft handling capabilities were being altered, she would still have a squadron of Swordfish, probably a dozen aircraft, but now she would carry a small squadron of fighter aircraft as well. FAA 895 would operate about nine Brewster Buffalos, reconfigured for carrier operations, and to accommodate all these extra aircraft, she would be fitted with a crash barrier to allow a deck park and four outriggers, two in front of the bridge, and another two after the bridge, behind the crane, all on the right-hand side. Aviation fuel was being increased from 8,000 to 13,000 imperial gallons, at the cost of slightly reducing bunker fuel, although the reserve tanks on the port side were normally need to be kept full to help with stability, to counteract for the weight of the island. The refit would take about fifteen weeks, finishing at the beginning of the new year, and then she would have to work up, firstly with a new ships crew, and after transit to Singapore, a further period with her aircraft and crews. Finally, she would be able to take on a training role, of both on fighters and TSR, creating a useful pool of trained aircrew, while available to support operations in the Indian ocean, if so called upon.
Question, when transiting from Hong Kong did the RN Subs and DD's and other vessels travel via Manila or make direct transits? I would thing the shorter legged older DDs might have to stop for fuel? Would there be any level of interaction of RN and USN Junior officers, other ranks outside the crews of the Flying boat transports of Senior officers on visits.
Some commentary on the discussion on the Asiatic Fleet. My sources ae USNI Proceedings articles on various aspects of the Asiatic Fleet.
1st the voyage of the USS Laniki, the recon/provocation operation was ordered by FDR direct to Admiral Hart. However when the war broke out the Laniki was just off the entrance to Manila bay, by the 10th of December with Cavite in ruins the The Laniki like all other surface vessels of the Asiatic Fleet was ordered South. With a Crew of 5 American Officers, 6 Chiefs and petty officers and 12 members of the Philippine Insular Naval Guard; armed with a 3 lbr gun, 2 Lewis guns and 1x .50 caliber MG., it wound up making an epic voyage from Manila to Brisbane, Australia, 4000 miles, in 82 days via the Dutch East Indies..
Source:
The Strange Assignment of USS Lanikai
In 1941, on secret orders from the President, the hastily commissioned schooner Lanikai was ordered in the path of the Japanese Fleet. Her real mission, suggests the author, was to provoke the Japanese to sink her, and trigger U. S. entry into World War II.
By Rear Admiral Kemp Tolley, USN (Ret.)
2. Submarine Operations, Confusion, the Squadron of Fleet boats came out in November, with a Commander Captain Walter “Red” Doyle who was Senior to the then Commander Submarines, Asiatic Fleet Commander John Wilkes and on 1 December replaced him. This Captain Doyle, once war broke out, was unable to do the job and Admiral Hart replaced him with the former, Commander Wilkes, and sent the removed officer South as Convoy Commodore of the evacuating Fleet Train.
During operations In December it was found that close in boats had only made 3 attacks, with one confirmed erratic torpedo, Boats operating in the South China Sea had made 15 attacks with 4 confirmed sinkings and 3 malfunctioning torpedoes, Post war surveys confirmed only 1 sinking,
During this time USN skippers making attacks and approaches discovered that the IJN had a version of Asdiac, something the USN had not expected nor planned for. As an RN ally for years USN Intelligence sources should have realized that with IJN knowledge of RN Asdiac the IJN could deploy this system. Also American Boats did attempt surface night attacks at this time, only to be driven down by Japanese AW far sooner then expected. American skippers reported that the IJN must have radar, something they would not have until well into 1942. What surfaced submarines faced were the superior optics available to and training of the Japanese lookouts, men with superior night vision.
More is in the article.
Source:
By Captain James P. Ransom III, U.S. Navy (Retired)
December 2021
Naval History Magazine
1st the voyage of the USS Laniki, the recon/provocation operation was ordered by FDR direct to Admiral Hart. However when the war broke out the Laniki was just off the entrance to Manila bay, by the 10th of December with Cavite in ruins the The Laniki like all other surface vessels of the Asiatic Fleet was ordered South. With a Crew of 5 American Officers, 6 Chiefs and petty officers and 12 members of the Philippine Insular Naval Guard; armed with a 3 lbr gun, 2 Lewis guns and 1x .50 caliber MG., it wound up making an epic voyage from Manila to Brisbane, Australia, 4000 miles, in 82 days via the Dutch East Indies..
Source:
The Strange Assignment of USS Lanikai
In 1941, on secret orders from the President, the hastily commissioned schooner Lanikai was ordered in the path of the Japanese Fleet. Her real mission, suggests the author, was to provoke the Japanese to sink her, and trigger U. S. entry into World War II.
By Rear Admiral Kemp Tolley, USN (Ret.)
2. Submarine Operations, Confusion, the Squadron of Fleet boats came out in November, with a Commander Captain Walter “Red” Doyle who was Senior to the then Commander Submarines, Asiatic Fleet Commander John Wilkes and on 1 December replaced him. This Captain Doyle, once war broke out, was unable to do the job and Admiral Hart replaced him with the former, Commander Wilkes, and sent the removed officer South as Convoy Commodore of the evacuating Fleet Train.
During operations In December it was found that close in boats had only made 3 attacks, with one confirmed erratic torpedo, Boats operating in the South China Sea had made 15 attacks with 4 confirmed sinkings and 3 malfunctioning torpedoes, Post war surveys confirmed only 1 sinking,
During this time USN skippers making attacks and approaches discovered that the IJN had a version of Asdiac, something the USN had not expected nor planned for. As an RN ally for years USN Intelligence sources should have realized that with IJN knowledge of RN Asdiac the IJN could deploy this system. Also American Boats did attempt surface night attacks at this time, only to be driven down by Japanese AW far sooner then expected. American skippers reported that the IJN must have radar, something they would not have until well into 1942. What surfaced submarines faced were the superior optics available to and training of the Japanese lookouts, men with superior night vision.
More is in the article.
Source:
Bleak December
Why did U.S. submarines perform so dismally in their defense of the Philippines? An analysis of their commander’s report and a leading submarine historian’s critique reveals some intriguing answers.By Captain James P. Ransom III, U.S. Navy (Retired)
December 2021
Naval History Magazine
Last edited:
With the removal of Herme's heavy tripod and control station will the use of fuel tanks a counter balancing ballast still be necessary? If not then more fuel storage should be available for use.
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Hi Butchpfd, Ouch!, don't ask questions like that, ha ha. Seriously I've made a mistake here. I use https://sea-distances.org/ for my sea distances, assuming they calculate via shipping lanes, and not some silly line that has me traversing across a reef or something. Hong Kong to Singapore is 1,460 Nmi's, well within the range of an S class destroyer at 15 knots, and I planned for the convoy to travel at 10 knots, much more economical, so no problem for the destroyer. And no problem for the cargo ships and troopers who can easily do the distance. However, I also included gunboats and tugs in those convoys, and therein lies my mistake. Firstly the gunboats, when sent out from the UK to the Med or Far East, were towed, with not only issues over their endurance, but also sea keeping. Which if I think of it makes sense, they don't have a need for a large range, and are designed as shallow bottomed riverine craft. With regard to the tugs, the Saint class, I have no idea of their endurance, but I'd guess at maybe a 1,000 Nmi at 10 knots.
So in answer to your question, did they travel via Manila, no they didn't, and I've probably gone and lost half of them in the South Chia Sea!, But I think I'll swerve it with a little lie and tell everybody that they did, and this'll be a little secret between us two
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Hi Butchpfd, That's a very interesting point about surfaced submarines at night and Japanese Optics you've brought up. I wonder does anyone know if they extended the quality of optics used, throughout their fleet, would the auxiliary sub chasers be so equipped, or given the expense were they just reserved for the main fleet boys, who were part of the Kantai Kessen?
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Hi sonofpegasus, removal of the heavy tripod and control station undoubtedly improves stability , but there is still a very big island to compensate for, much bigger than later ships. Also some fuel bunkerage space has been taken to increase aviation fuel holdings, so any gain has been already lost I'm afraid. In summary, increasing aircraft comes at quite a cost, less ships endurance, while the increase in aviation fuel barely matches the increase in aircraft. Air ops will be restricted owing to fuel reserves, but I will explain all this in another story, when we see Hermes emerge from the dockyard and begin working up.
Hi Sekhmet_D, yes it would!
For discussions on my Hermes rebuild, as well as aircraft numbers and types, I'll offer these three threads to peruse, although I'm sure there are others out there.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/war...rmes-rebuild-south-africa-1941-42-t39924.html
NavWeaps Forums-Hermes Actual Usable Hanger
There is not a lot of specific information on this subject, the otherwise pretty good Hobbs just gives 400 by 50ft, but there are other references to
NavWeaps Forums-Buffaloes for Hermes
If they were any use at all they'd probably have ended up fighting in one of the active theatres along the way. Some of the Beauforts in Malta were
From what I have seen and read about the Japanese optics industry of this period, the lower classes of ships, would probably, imo, have an earlier generation of the optics. As to training and individuals with the best night vision, while I imagine the very best went into the main fleet and Kido Butai, however it was probably doctrine that in every ship those with the best vision were assigned as lookouts and of that group, those with the best night vision would be assigned duty in the dark hours. Given the previous I would imagine that even sub chasers would have superior optics and night lookouts, putting USN and Allied Sub commanders at a disadvantage until radar was installed.
Coxy,Hi Butchpfd, Ouch!, don't ask questions like that, ha ha. Seriously I've made a mistake here. I use https://sea-distances.org/ for my sea distances, assuming they calculate via shipping lanes, and not some silly line that has me traversing across a reef or something. Hong Kong to Singapore is 1,460 Nmi's, well within the range of an S class destroyer at 15 knots, and I planned for the convoy to travel at 10 knots, much more economical, so no problem for the destroyer. And no problem for the cargo ships and troopers who can easily do the distance. However, I also included gunboats and tugs in those convoys, and therein lies my mistake. Firstly the gunboats, when sent out from the UK to the Med or Far East, were towed, with not only issues over their endurance, but also sea keeping. Which if I think of it makes sense, they don't have a need for a large range, and are designed as shallow bottomed riverine craft. With regard to the tugs, the Saint class, I have no idea of their endurance, but I'd guess at maybe a 1,000 Nmi at 10 knots.
So in answer to your question, did they travel via Manila, no they didn't, and I've probably gone and lost half of them in the South Chia Sea!, But I think I'll swerve it with a little lie and tell everybody that they did, and this'll be a little secret between us two
With the intentional exception of two, the USN riverine gunboats of Yangtze Station all were able to reach Manila using improvised bulwarks ( wood and canvas) to increase their freeboard. Only 2 did not get out. The USS Wake, at Shanghai the last communication link with the Bejing and Nanking detachments, and the USS Tutulia which went up the Yangtze and was turned over to the Nationalist Chinese as Lend Lease.
IMO the RN gunboats and tugs if in convoy, with the same improvised bulwarks as their USN sisters could make via Manila and the inside passage off Palawan to Borneo then the run to Singapore. A bit longer but with places to refuel like the USN Seaplane tender Preston, at the USN Anchorage at Puerto Princesa, Palawan
A VERY rough pic of the improvements to Hermes, courtesy of Shipbucket and original credits as shown. I've bodged up the 286P radar, couldn't find the 284 and missed the Oerlikons.