Malê Rising

All states are going to have something they center themselves around. Better that they center themselves around a man or woman with strictly limited personal power than around ethnicity, religion or ideology, because the person at least can be told they're wrong when they demand something horrible.

Better still is a state centered around the idea of acting as arbiter of disputes, purveyor of credit, protection of people's lives and property, and not impinging on the right of its citizens to do what they want with their lives except in so far as that impinges upon the right of other of its citizens to not have done unto them. In practice, though, we're never going to have that in our world, so we might as well get some pageantry with our inevitable corruption and oppression.

No state at all would be even better, but this planet is no Anarres, unfortunately.
I'd be fine with some reasonable degree of pageantry*, but as Scotland is showing about now, it provides little substitute for real rights and collective protection.

* Specifically, I would be under the condition that the House of Savoy is not even remotely involved.
 
I was going to quote out several things that caught my eye, but I lost that post. :rolleyes: Anyway I didn't have much to add to the factual side of the historical/linguistic discussion. Still - I wanted to say that the Ottoman Union has to be my favorite interpretation of an ATL Ottoman Empire. I don't know enough about the denominational politics of Islam to weigh the odds on this, but hopefully it won't inspire TTL's version of Know-Nothingism (rooting for Qunanbaiulism, here).

On a more pleasant note, it was cool to see hints of a future religious-inflected enviromentalism show up in West Africa. The fanboy in me wants a Franco-Brazilian construction company with AIDU consultants to be fuming while it tries to figure out how to dislodge Greens and Christian Stewards staging a unity sit-in... maybe with Nicaraguan envoys try to sap French support through the AACM and Gabon?</fanboy> :p

Last idle thought, promise: if Turkestan's influence hasn't pulled it off, hopefully AIDU will introduce Afghanistan to West African/Ottoman reformism?
 
I was going to quote out several things that caught my eye, but I lost that post. :rolleyes: Anyway I didn't have much to add to the factual side of the historical/linguistic discussion. Still - I wanted to say that the Ottoman Union has to be my favorite interpretation of an ATL Ottoman Empire. I don't know enough about the denominational politics of Islam to weigh the odds on this, but hopefully it won't inspire TTL's version of Know-Nothingism (rooting for Qunanbaiulism, here).

I am not exactly sure of what do you mean here, but I profit from your note on the topic.
I take the occasion to update the discussion on the "native" name of the Ottoman Union, following a PM exchange with Essam.
We now concur that the most likely Arabic form is not "al-Umam al-'Uthmaniyya al-muttahida" but "al-Umam al-'Uthmaniyya al muttafiqa", based on old Ottoman Turkish renditions of the name of the United Stated that Essam found. "Al-muttafiqa" (my vocalization) should mean "that are in accord/agreement/covenant" and I feel that it is better suited to the situation described.
 
India and SPAAAAAAAACE! Not to mention Britain and SPAAAAAAAAACE!

Are the Chinese starting to be interested in space? What about the Japanese?

To some extent, by the 60s and certainly by the 70s, a space program will be one of the ways to prove you've got the economic and technical clout to be a great power - it won't be as much of a race as IOTL, but space will still be highly symbolic. That means the Chinese and Japanese, and the Ottomans for that matter, are starting to be interested, although some will go farther than others.

And TTL has it's Warsaw Genuflection with the British King in India, which is nice :) .

That is a remarkably blunt political speech for a British monarch to make in 1961, especially ITTL. Not that most Britons won't agree with their king - but no doubt it would cause a considerable political stir.

Good update- interesting to see the bluntness with which King George speaks. Curiously, that indicates that he's both going to be quite a popular King in some areas but also risks damaging the monarchy itself. There's going to be a lot of Britons who agree with every word he says that are nevertheless furious that he made such a political speech- even liberal advisors will try to rein him in.

The reason he felt able to get away with the speech was that he already was a popular king - he's been king for 40 years at this point, and he's widely seen as the one who saved the monarchy after the Imperials' fall. All the same, it will come as a surprise, because George has a reputation for not being overtly political, and as you say, even liberals will accuse him of overstepping his bounds. And they'll do so with some justice: it's the kind of speech a prime minister should make, not a king.

What only a few people will realize is that, as far as George is concerned, the speech was personal rather than political. The Siege of India was done in his father's name, and his father visited India personally to encourage the troops during the war, so George feels that there's unfinished family business there, and doing what he can to reset the British-Indian relationship is his way to make amends. In a way, he's been saving up capital for this speech for a long time - he's usually more the kind to make jokes about stowing away on spaceships, but he hoped that if he was deadly serious this one time, the very shock of that would get the politicians to follow his lead.

He's actually right about that, and he'll have plenty of defenders, but it will lead to debate about the role of the monarchy, including whether there should be one.

I dislike how many monarchies are still around.

I love how many monarchies are still around.

I like having these kinds of monarchs around--kings like this George, queen-princess-nagusinas or whatever the best title of Anastasia would be, an Empress like Marianne.

The reason they are good monarchs is because democracy is strong in their lands.

All states are going to have something they center themselves around. Better that they center themselves around a man or woman with strictly limited personal power than around ethnicity, religion or ideology, because the person at least can be told they're wrong when they demand something horrible.

If it's any consolation, people are having the same conversation in TTL - there are those who view monarchy as an anchor in an age when the concept of sovereignty and nationhood is changing, and others who say that a president or constitution works just fine and that there's no reason to maintain an expensive figurehead. And among those who favor, or are willing to tolerate, the institution of monarchy, there's plenty of disagreement about its proper role.

The next few updates will have something for all persuasions: republics emerging all over West Africa (and, by the 1960s, parts of eastern Europe), but also the British monarchy as a more central institution in the Commonwealth.

On a more pleasant note, it was cool to see hints of a future religious-inflected enviromentalism show up in West Africa. The fanboy in me wants a Franco-Brazilian construction company with AIDU consultants to be fuming while it tries to figure out how to dislodge Greens and Christian Stewards staging a unity sit-in... maybe with Nicaraguan envoys try to sap French support through the AACM and Gabon?</fanboy> :p

Things like that can and will happen, but there will also be conflict within the environmentalist movement - the secular environmentalists won't always see eye to eye with the religious ones, and the broadly left-wing environmentalists (both secular and religious) will clash with the more conservative ones. There's a reason the Greens and the Stewards will be separate parties, and while the combination will be a powerful one in many cases, in others it will allow their opponents to divide and conquer. The environment will still be a contentious issue in TTL's present; in fact, with a more developed world (albeit one which is farther along the demographic shift), it may be even more so.

Last idle thought, promise: if Turkestan's influence hasn't pulled it off, hopefully AIDU will introduce Afghanistan to West African/Ottoman reformism?

It's already been introduced, and at this point Afghanistan is closely aligned to India and Turkestan, although Persia is also influential and it still wants to keep some distance from the AIDU.

We now concur that the most likely Arabic form is not "al-Umam al-'Uthmaniyya al-muttahida" but "al-Umam al-'Uthmaniyya al muttafiqa", based on old Ottoman Turkish renditions of the name of the United Stated that Essam found. "Al-muttafiqa" (my vocalization) should mean "that are in accord/agreement/covenant" and I feel that it is better suited to the situation described.

It's also suited to the message that the union's founders are trying to send - consider it canonized.

I have to tell you that I haven't updated the latest posts on the wiki for quite some time now. I'll probably need to get to that soon.

If I haven't thanked you for that lately, let me do so again.
 

Sulemain

Banned
How's the progress on treating Congo Fever going ITTL?

Has the Polio Vaccine been invented yet? Have there been major efforts to eradicate smallpox?
 
You don't get bored of reading "Republic of [Whatever]" constantly?

You can put "republic" after the country name too. And there are different kinds of them. :p

How's the progress on treating Congo Fever going ITTL?

Has the Polio Vaccine been invented yet? Have there been major efforts to eradicate smallpox?

At this point, the Congo fever virus has been isolated and can be tested for, but they're still a long way from a treatment that works. The nature of retroviruses isn't yet understood; in fact, the discovery of the Congo fever pathogen has led to some disastrous (but fortunately small-scale) attempts to develop a live-virus vaccine.

They have figured out polio, though, and smallpox is becoming a serious priority.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Neat section - I think I missed the (apparent)

umpteenth and final(?) Anglo-Indian War...:eek:

Can someone give a ~rom page location?

Best,
 

Deleted member 67076

Eh, I'm a socialist. You can put in plenty of democratic unions, communes, and other word choices in there.
Oooh, I like commune. Why is Commune never used?

Because "Kingdom of Whatever" is so much more original? At least ours is newer by a few thousand years.
>Using as bland a title as king

There's your problem.
 
ITTL, it might be. I opted for "Free City" for Venice, but there are places in Italy where I believe that "Commune" is likely to be used; to name one, I think that Ancona is a candidate.

Italy, like France, uses "commune" for municipalities, doesn't it? At least one Spanish-speaking country (Chile) also does. An autonomous city in a Romance-speaking country might use the name in TTL without any ideological connotations. There wasn't any Paris Commune uprising ITTL, so the term's association with the left isn't as overwhelming, although anarchist or communist entities would still use it as an ideological marker.

umpteenth and final(?) Anglo-Indian War...:eek:

Can someone give a ~rom page location?

The war under discussion is the Indian war of independence, which took place from 1916 to 1921: it's far in the past at the time of the update, but still casts a shadow on British-Indian relations. The first update involving the war is at 187 on this list, with some background at 186; the end of the war is at 205 with an epilogue of sorts at 206.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Many thanks

The war under discussion is the Indian war of independence, which took place from 1916 to 1921: it's far in the past at the time of the update, but still casts a shadow on British-Indian relations. The first update involving the war is at 187 on this list, with some background at 186; the end of the war is at 205 with an epilogue of sorts at 206.


Many thanks.

Best,
 
Ah, and I'm finally caught up again. Great show, Jonathan. Is it just me, or has it been a while since we saw what was going on in the US of A? Will be interesting to see how the remainder of the 20th Century goes there.
 
Italy, like France, uses "commune" for municipalities, doesn't it? At least one Spanish-speaking country (Chile) also does. An autonomous city in a Romance-speaking country might use the name in TTL without any ideological connotations.
Sweden also does (Kommun in Swedish), so it needn't be restricted to Romance-speaking countries.
 
Italy, like France, uses "commune" for municipalities, doesn't it? At least one Spanish-speaking country (Chile) also does. An autonomous city in a Romance-speaking country might use the name in TTL without any ideological connotations. There wasn't any Paris Commune uprising ITTL, so the term's association with the left isn't as overwhelming, although anarchist or communist entities would still use it as an ideological marker.

In Italian (but not in French) there are two words: "il Comune" is a municipality (or a Medieval self-governing community), "la Comune" (sometimes "la Comuna" in older texts, not used anymore in modern Italian) is either said Medieval city, the Parisian Commune, or an intentional community. I understand that a similar distinction exists in Spanish. However, the difference (and the association with the left) refers already to the First Parisian Commune in 1792, so it would be there ITTL. Originally both forms referred to self-governing communities, but "la Comune" acquired a specialized meaning under French influence I suppose.
 
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