Deleted member 67076
Jonathan, what of Television ITTL? Has it been invented? I know electronics are a thing at the very least.
Malê Rising
- Thread starter Jonathan Edelstein
- Start date
The space race is going to be very complicated ITTL. Hopefully, a lot more countries will be taking part in it than during the equivalent time IOTL.
Might we also be having BRIIIIITTTTSSS* IIIIIINNNN SPAAAAACCEEEEE?
And Germans, French, Russians, Americans, Brazilians, Ethiopians, Ottomans etc...
Speaking of the Ottomans - (1) damn, that system is complicated. Par of the course, ITTL, though, (2) Greater Bornu is HUGE! But will Bornu grow larger? , (3) we need a map of the world, and soon. This is getting to be very complicated. Perhaps one of 1960-abouts, once all of the craziness has settled down.
Damn, the "present day" world map is going to be really complicated.
You might have to do several maps showing each major bloc, or at least blocs that don't overlap with each other.
*Other Commonwealth nationalities are available.
Might we also be having BRIIIIITTTTSSS* IIIIIINNNN SPAAAAACCEEEEE?
And Germans, French, Russians, Americans, Brazilians, Ethiopians, Ottomans etc...
Speaking of the Ottomans - (1) damn, that system is complicated. Par of the course, ITTL, though
, (2) Greater Bornu is HUGE! But will Bornu grow larger? , (3) we need a map of the world, and soon. This is getting to be very complicated. Perhaps one of 1960-abouts, once all of the craziness has settled down.Damn, the "present day" world map is going to be really complicated.
You might have to do several maps showing each major bloc, or at least blocs that don't overlap with each other.
*Other Commonwealth nationalities are available.
Damn, the "present day" world map is going to be really complicated.
Do you remember those absurdly convoluted maps of the Early Modern Holy Roman Empire? I think that most parts of the world will look more like that than like any OTL present political map.
Yes, but at least they were only really defined by (a) the title of their ruler, (b) the imperial circle, and (c) the fact that they were a part of the HRE.
Whereas ITTL, you will have some places that may hold allegiance to several different bodies/rulers.
I think Jonathan Edelstein has stumbled across a system that's even more complicated than a map of the HRE!
Yes, but at least they were only really defined by (a) the title of their ruler, (b) the imperial circle, and (c) the fact that they were a part of the HRE.
Whereas ITTL, you will have some places that may hold allegiance to several different bodies/rulers.
I think Jonathan Edelstein has stumbled across a system that's even more complicated than a map of the HRE!
Politically, yes. Multiple allegiances however were not unheard of in the HRE.
Well, yes.
The main ones being "allied with France against the Emperor", or "allied with France, and one or more other powers, against the Emperor".
Or, alternatively, "supporting candidate X for Emperor, and fighting against candidate Y".
No wonder it took absolutely ages for Germany to unify.
Well, yes.
The main ones being "allied with France against the Emperor", or "allied with France, and one or more other powers, against the Emperor".
Or, alternatively, "supporting candidate X for Emperor, and fighting against candidate Y".
No wonder it took absolutely ages for Germany to unify.
Technically it is not "unified" to this day. What do you think Luxemburg, Austria and Liechtenstein are?
Technically it is not "unified" to this day. What do you think Luxemburg, Austria and Liechtenstein are?
I've often had a similar thought. If Bavaria had never been incorporated into Prussia we probably would still consider "Germany" as being unified, and simply think of Bavaria as its own thing. Greater Germany isn't unified yet at all, as Hitler so unkindly pointed out.
Cheers,
Ganesha
Technically, Bavaria was never incorporated into Prussia. It was strapped alongside it to form Voltr...um Germany.
Even in an ATL, the French collective national psyche remains the same on issues such as nationality, republican citizenship, etc. All joking aside, though, it makes perfect sense; people rarely realise how deeply ingrained the centralisation and concepts of citizenry in France is, dating back to before the Revolution, these trends and sociopolitical phenomenon would be hard to undo, and so it is good to see a wind of familiarity in a most confusing, alternate world. Cheers and vive l'Impératrice Napoléon (Marianne.)
All joking aside, though, it makes perfect sense; people rarely realise how deeply ingrained the centralisation and concepts of citizenry in France is, dating back to before the Revolution, these trends and sociopolitical phenomenon would be hard to undo, and so it is good to see a wind of familiarity in a most confusing, alternate world. Cheers and vive l'Impératrice Napoléon (Marianne.)
In case anyone missed it (the page filled up quickly), the update is on the previous page at post 5394.
I'm also grateful for all the discussion on naval and space-program matters, and have taken it on board.
Of the two, I'd go with Ummah. I've never seen Millet used to describe anything other than religious communities - the OTL Ottoman state didn't really think in terms of national, as opposed to religious, minorities. Of course, an Ottoman Empire/Union that did begin to think in terms of national minorities might adapt the term "millet" to describe them, but given the importance that religious authorities and communities still have, my guess is that they'd look for another word.
Al-Umam al-Utmaniyya al-Muttahida it is.
This is very possible, at least with the outer-tier ones, and maybe even some that are in the middle tier.
As Falecius said, this is what happened in OTL - Iran's first government after the revolution had many leftists in it and the influence of the left can be seen very plainly in the constitution, but they ended up being outmaneuvered and crushed. Whether the same thing will happen in TTL, or whether there will be a different outcome, remains to be seen.
The same. Funmi wouldn't sit in the French parliament for thirty years and handle part of France's under-the-table diplomacy with Britain and British Africa and not get to know her, and the two women have a good deal in common.
The remark about trousers was partly to tease Funmi - Marianne has a dry sense of humor - but she's also as conventional in some ways as she is unconventional in others.
That's it exactly. Despite all that has changed, this is Second Empire France, heir to both the 1789 revolution and the Napoleonic one(s) as well as the leveling ideals of the Red Twenty, and it has the cultural baggage that implies. France will be one of the more cautious nations when it comes to post-Westphalianism, and it will probably remain much more of a nation-state than many others. That doesn't mean, of course, that it won't be progressive, but it will have different ideas of what "progressive" means.
Everyone mentioned in this update was actually on the old tree - Tiberio is Paulo the Younger's son. I'll bring it to the present sometime fairly soon, though.
Well, some of them haven't happened yet - the outcome of the French Empire's internal debates, for instance, will be revealed in the next update. The conversation between Marianne and Funmilayo was stage-setting, as well as other things.
If matters develop the way Sangat Ram thinks they will. It's likely for this to be the case, though - India is the only potential space nation that isn't yet a great power, and with aggressive war neither desired nor an option, launching a man into space is one way to show it belongs with the big boys. India may be the nation in TTL which buys into the "space race" idea the most, and it might also be a pioneer in internationalizing the space program in order to assert leadership among developing nations.
It'll be a while before Ethiopia and Brazil are in a position to start space programs, unless they throw in with someone else - but the others, most certainly.
It has been. Broadcast TV began in the 1930s as in OTL, and without WW2 to interrupt its development, it's somewhat more advanced - roughly equivalent, as of 1955, to OTL in the early 60s. I mentioned it in the Salonika update, using the OTL name, which I think is plausible given the precedent of telephone and telegraph.
It isn't that huge - in OTL's terms, it's Niger minus Tillaberi and Dosso provinces, Chad, Darfur, and about three-quarters of Libya. It covers a lot of square miles, but most of them are desert and the population is relatively low. On the other hand, low population plus large oil reserves means that, after centuries of poverty, Bornu is now quite rich.
It has most likely reached its final size - there's nowhere obvious to expand - although it might become part of various West African or Saharan networks.
There actually won't be many more states in TTL's present than in OTL's. The complications will come from the entities above, below and alongside: overlapping multinational blocs, watershed authorities and university networks that exist apart from nations, and autonomous regions that cross borders or have ties to neighboring countries. Non-territorial collectives could make things even more complicated - how the hell do you map a global Roma governing board, for instance?
A map of all the sovereign members of the Consistory would look very much like the HRE, albeit with some clear spots in the less post-Westphalian nations such as the United States.
My first thought was "didn't dare or didn't bother?", but this does suggest that Hitler considered it impractical to annex Liechtenstein due to the possibility of trouble with Switzerland.
The Nazis did try, though. The next page (183) of the same book relates that "on March 28, 1939, about eighty Liechtenstein Nazis occupied the bridge over the Rhine at the town of Schaan, and were heading for Vaduz to take over government buildings there. But the plotters were routed by the tiny police force plus another group of Liechtensteiners, led by the Diet president, and armed with pitchforks, scythes, and fence slats."
Anyway, there are just two more updates in the 1940-55 cycle - West Africa and Latin America - and I'll also try to get a 1955 map of Africa in there somewhere. Then, the 1955-70 cycle: the post-independence shakeout, the evolution of post-Westphalianism and global pop culture, the space race, and more. I'm planning to start it off with a few narratives set in 1960-65 that take a closer look at parts of the world, beginning with a 1961 British royal visit to India.
I'm also grateful for all the discussion on naval and space-program matters, and have taken it on board.
Of the two, I'd go with Ummah. I've never seen Millet used to describe anything other than religious communities - the OTL Ottoman state didn't really think in terms of national, as opposed to religious, minorities. Of course, an Ottoman Empire/Union that did begin to think in terms of national minorities might adapt the term "millet" to describe them, but given the importance that religious authorities and communities still have, my guess is that they'd look for another word.
Al-Umam al-Utmaniyya al-Muttahida it is.
This is very possible, at least with the outer-tier ones, and maybe even some that are in the middle tier.
As Falecius said, this is what happened in OTL - Iran's first government after the revolution had many leftists in it and the influence of the left can be seen very plainly in the constitution, but they ended up being outmaneuvered and crushed. Whether the same thing will happen in TTL, or whether there will be a different outcome, remains to be seen.
Wait, Marianne? As in Empress Marianne?
...kinda amusing that she's a bit uncomfortable with trousers.
The same. Funmi wouldn't sit in the French parliament for thirty years and handle part of France's under-the-table diplomacy with Britain and British Africa and not get to know her, and the two women have a good deal in common.
The remark about trousers was partly to tease Funmi - Marianne has a dry sense of humor - but she's also as conventional in some ways as she is unconventional in others.
Even in an ATL, the French collective national psyche remains the same on issues such as nationality, republican citizenship, etc.
That's it exactly. Despite all that has changed, this is Second Empire France, heir to both the 1789 revolution and the Napoleonic one(s) as well as the leveling ideals of the Red Twenty, and it has the cultural baggage that implies. France will be one of the more cautious nations when it comes to post-Westphalianism, and it will probably remain much more of a nation-state than many others. That doesn't mean, of course, that it won't be progressive, but it will have different ideas of what "progressive" means.
Everyone mentioned in this update was actually on the old tree - Tiberio is Paulo the Younger's son. I'll bring it to the present sometime fairly soon, though.
Well, some of them haven't happened yet - the outcome of the French Empire's internal debates, for instance, will be revealed in the next update. The conversation between Marianne and Funmilayo was stage-setting, as well as other things.
If matters develop the way Sangat Ram thinks they will. It's likely for this to be the case, though - India is the only potential space nation that isn't yet a great power, and with aggressive war neither desired nor an option, launching a man into space is one way to show it belongs with the big boys. India may be the nation in TTL which buys into the "space race" idea the most, and it might also be a pioneer in internationalizing the space program in order to assert leadership among developing nations.
Might we also be having BRIIIIITTTTSSS* IIIIIINNNN SPAAAAACCEEEEE?
And Germans, French, Russians, Americans, Brazilians, Ethiopians, Ottomans etc...
It'll be a while before Ethiopia and Brazil are in a position to start space programs, unless they throw in with someone else - but the others, most certainly.
It has been. Broadcast TV began in the 1930s as in OTL, and without WW2 to interrupt its development, it's somewhat more advanced - roughly equivalent, as of 1955, to OTL in the early 60s. I mentioned it in the Salonika update, using the OTL name, which I think is plausible given the precedent of telephone and telegraph.
(2) Greater Bornu is HUGE!
It isn't that huge - in OTL's terms, it's Niger minus Tillaberi and Dosso provinces, Chad, Darfur, and about three-quarters of Libya. It covers a lot of square miles, but most of them are desert and the population is relatively low. On the other hand, low population plus large oil reserves means that, after centuries of poverty, Bornu is now quite rich.
It has most likely reached its final size - there's nowhere obvious to expand - although it might become part of various West African or Saharan networks.
Damn, the "present day" world map is going to be really complicated.
There actually won't be many more states in TTL's present than in OTL's. The complications will come from the entities above, below and alongside: overlapping multinational blocs, watershed authorities and university networks that exist apart from nations, and autonomous regions that cross borders or have ties to neighboring countries. Non-territorial collectives could make things even more complicated - how the hell do you map a global Roma governing board, for instance?
A map of all the sovereign members of the Consistory would look very much like the HRE, albeit with some clear spots in the less post-Westphalian nations such as the United States.
My first thought was "didn't dare or didn't bother?", but this does suggest that Hitler considered it impractical to annex Liechtenstein due to the possibility of trouble with Switzerland.
The Nazis did try, though. The next page (183) of the same book relates that "on March 28, 1939, about eighty Liechtenstein Nazis occupied the bridge over the Rhine at the town of Schaan, and were heading for Vaduz to take over government buildings there. But the plotters were routed by the tiny police force plus another group of Liechtensteiners, led by the Diet president, and armed with pitchforks, scythes, and fence slats."
Anyway, there are just two more updates in the 1940-55 cycle - West Africa and Latin America - and I'll also try to get a 1955 map of Africa in there somewhere. Then, the 1955-70 cycle: the post-independence shakeout, the evolution of post-Westphalianism and global pop culture, the space race, and more. I'm planning to start it off with a few narratives set in 1960-65 that take a closer look at parts of the world, beginning with a 1961 British royal visit to India.
Something like China (or, for that matter, the Soviet Union) OTL then? Showing that it has the technical chops of any of the great powers?
Even in an ATL, the French collective national psyche remains the same on issues such as nationality, republican citizenship, etc.
It is likely to be very different by TTL's present day, but I see your point (and I largely agree).
However, multiethnic empires are cool (and France now is one ITTL) and nationalism is fucking dangerous.
What you describe is actually what I understand to have been the course of semantic shift of "Millet" in Modern Turkish. "United Nations" is translated "Birleşmiş Milletler". However, this is post-POD and quite likely to be a semantic shift that occurred in a Kemalist frame of political language and liguistic policy. Nothing like that ever occurred ITTL, or could have realistically have occurred in a surviving Great Power Ottoman Empire, I think.
Of course, "Umma" ("Ümmet" in Modern Turkish) is likewise a religiously loaded term in Arabic, and even more so in Turkish where its modern usage appears to be entirely religious (and specifically Islamic; it is not really the case in pre-Modern Arabic). I'd still argue that it would be the most likely word in TTL's context, especially considering the identical word with a very close basic meaning in Hebrew (I think some scholars hold that the Arabic word is actually a Hebrew borrowing, for which there is not hard evidence but the reasoning is fairly sensible).
I had very little idea. My "didn't dare" was meant as ironic, but according to your books stands fairly close to reality. so Liechtenstein is actually the first country to have repelled a Nazi invasion by itself. Which in itself begs the AH question: what if the Nazis didn't back down there and entered a conflict with Switzerland in Spring 1939?
I don't see that as particularly likely of course, but it would make for an interesting and original "WWII" TL.
Though interestingly enough, the first incarnation of the Ummah actually included the Jews of Medina as well as the Muslims. It wasn't actually until later on in Muhammad's prophethood that the Ummah was seen as being a exclusively Muslim community.
True, true. And this is actually reflected in later usage.
But al-Umma (in th determined form) as "Islamic community" specifically is pretty widely attested, very possibly even in the Qur'an (though that is clearly open to interpretation). The word is loaded even if you are right that a more neutral meaning is historically consistent (and easily found in the Qur'an as well).
But we have Al-Umum al-Muttahida today: the UN. (Which is why I brought up millet after our earlier conversation, I casually wanted to see what it was called.) It is ironic that millet remains religiously charged in Arabic, while we've adopted (at one point at least, maybe less so today than in the mid-20th century Arab elite circles of Cairo and Damascus) Ummah for the UN; opposite, it seems from what you say, in Turkish