Malê Rising

Another excellent update! So, roughly, what parts of the Ottoman Union form the "innermost" tier?

I would assume Southestern Balkans, most of Anatolia and very likely the Levant (except probably Mount Lebanon, the Druze Jabal and Jerusalem).
I lost track of what happened to Cyprus ITTL, but I assume it enjoys some autonomy.
Eastern Anatolia might go a lot of ways, but I would suppose that Kurdish, Armenian and maybe Assyrian autonomous entities are around there. Perhaps a Pontic Greek one too.
 
The Ethiopia update was just incredible, it would be amazing if we could see a greater picture of what those tied kingdoms look like as a nation. Admittedly, I haven't read the whole series but I am looking forward to seeing it together in the Completed Timelines forum someday and spending weeks and months delving into it. A Russian Ethiopia is one thing, a Romanov is another, but a Romanov-Solomonid dynasty is just indescribable. Pure genius, and there are few timelines that are as much a joy to read as this one. :eek: Looking forward to the Ottoman Union's latter 20th century as well as other nations.

Also, naturally, looking forward to learning any bit more one can on these Pan-Maghrebi movements. How do North African identities evolve? Are the languages considered to be Arabic in Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia...and we read about Libya. A longer Ottoman experience, a much weaker Berber presence before the PoD, and a dialect similar to those of the tribes of Upper Egypt, Sudan and the Arabian Peninsula...yet the Pan-Maghrebi movements have found a population willing to listen
 
If there is less Cuban immigration to Florida, will we see any other Caribbeans moving to Florida? Maybe refugees from all the conflict and oligarchy in the British West Indies?

The original Jamaican and Haitian communities in TTL's United States were in Charleston, so much of that immigration stream would go to SC. In time, though, they'd spread through much of the United States, and Florida is a conveniently close destination; some would find their way there as seasonal laborers, others as small businessmen. The West Indians are very active in the Floridian civil rights movement (as they were in OTL New York).

There will be some immigration from the Spanish Caribbean as well - just nowhere near as much as OTL, so *Tampa or *Miami might have a small ethnic neighborhood or two rather than an Ybor City or Little Havana. There might be enough Cubans in Miami to have a landmark like Calle Ocho, but there also might not, and as I said above, the city as a whole will have a more classically Southern feel.

(It's kind of a shame, BTW - Miami is one of my favorite cities in OTL - but there's more than one path to greatness. Maybe *Tampa or *Miami will become a great Southern city like Atlanta, with just a touch of Cuban and Dominican flavor.)

Another excellent update! So, roughly, what parts of the Ottoman Union form the "innermost" tier?

I would assume Southestern Balkans, most of Anatolia and very likely the Levant (except probably Mount Lebanon, the Druze Jabal and Jerusalem).

I lost track of what happened to Cyprus ITTL, but I assume it enjoys some autonomy.

Eastern Anatolia might go a lot of ways, but I would suppose that Kurdish, Armenian and maybe Assyrian autonomous entities are around there. Perhaps a Pontic Greek one too.

Hejaz is also part of the innermost tier, and Albania thus far hasn't formed an autonomous vilayet because nobody can agree on who'll rule it, but other than that, Falecius is correct. Bosnia, Mesopotamia, the industrial cities of western Anatolia, Lebanon and the Jebel Druze are all autonomous states, and Cyprus and the Principality of the Aegean (expanded from the Principality of Samos) have special status.

There probably is a Kurdish state in some of the sanjaks where they form a majority - the Kurds aren't a comfortable fit with the APP-M's secular Arabism, so they'd want their own autonomous region rather than joining the Mesopotamia vilayet. The Circassians might come along for the ride.

Assyrians - are they a majority in more than one sanjak? If not, they'll probably be part of the inner tier, albeit with more self-government than most (asymmetric federalism can be good that way). The Armenians and Greeks are more likely to want non-territorial collectives, scattered as they are throughout the union - they might try to form a vilayet in Erzerum or Van, but from what I understand, they weren't actually a majority there. I suspect their status is one of the issues that will come up frequently in the 1960s and 70s, as the Union's structure shakes out.

The Ethiopia update was just incredible, it would be amazing if we could see a greater picture of what those tied kingdoms look like as a nation.

We will. I'm planning a narrative there during the 1960s.

Also, naturally, looking forward to learning any bit more one can on these Pan-Maghrebi movements. How do North African identities evolve? Are the languages considered to be Arabic in Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia...and we read about Libya. A longer Ottoman experience, a much weaker Berber presence before the PoD, and a dialect similar to those of the tribes of Upper Egypt, Sudan and the Arabian Peninsula...yet the Pan-Maghrebi movements have found a population willing to listen

We'll hear a lot more about pan-Maghrebi nationalism in the next substantive update, because this movement will play a significant part in Algerian events. Essentially, it's a combination of cultural Berberism and shared opposition to colonialism (or, in Libya's case, neglected-non-contiguous-province-ism). The regional variations, especially in Morocco which was never colonized, likely outweigh the common threads, which is why (like the Ba'ath in OTL) their efforts to unite the Maghreb won't be very successful, but their ideas will influence the more mainstream political parties.

Libya, as you say, isn't very Berber in TTL, but there's a lot of romanticism that focuses on the desert tribes, and there's been a good deal of cultural exchange with the Kingdom of the Arabs and with the desert peoples who owe allegiance to Bornu. Pan-Maghrebism certainly isn't a majority position there, or anything close to it, but given that so much of the revolutionary struggle took place in the desert, it has some cachet.
 
If I may ask, what advantages does Canaveral have over a location in southern Florida or even the Bahamas? Why Canaveral and not, say, somewhere near *Miami?

Well, it's a bit of a long and complicated story, as most things are. I know that even in the 19th century Canaveral was identified as being pretty good for this, given its famous use by Verne, but on the other hand that was partially because there was an organization similar to the one in that novel operating in the area at the time (probably because it was in the middle of nowhere).

Later on, when Canaveral was created around '48 or '49 for rocket testing, Miami already existed, and had for around fifty years. Given the realities of rocket launches, especially in the 1940s and 1950s, locating a testing ground close to what was already a relatively important population center was obviously a non-starter. At that point, no one was considering space launch (well, obviously some people were, but it wasn't the main consideration in siting the Cape), so they put the facilities where it would be convenient for the immediate goal; then, when they started doing space launch, they tended to build facilities where there were already facilities.

Still, if you look at a map of Florida like this one, you can see that the Cape sticks way out from the coast. Not a big deal with things like the Space Shuttle or Saturn V, or even the Atlas, but early on, when they were just launching relatively small rockets, that gave them a pretty decent-size clear area for launches that had no chance of becoming unsuitable. The next farthest-south area with anything close to the same launch azimuths available looks to me like West Palm Beach, which was, like Miami, already a fairly important city by the time the Cape was created.

Additionally, according to the 45th Space Wing's official history (they're the people who run the Air Force operations at the Cape), it was logistically convenient. Obviously it's directly on the coast and the Intracoastal Waterway, allowing for direct water access (which has proved to be important: the Saturn V first stage, Space Shuttle External Tank, and Delta IV and Atlas V core stages are all barged to Canaveral); it's also convenient to the Florida East Coast Railway, allowing rail transport (for solid rocket motors or other core stages, for example), and is proximate to I-95 (well, okay, that didn't exist then, but I bet there was another highway running along approximately the same route), allowing road transport. Interestingly, according to the Air Force, the first choice was El Centro, California, but that had to be scrapped due to Mexican unwillingness to allow missile overflights of the Baja Peninsula. Of course they eventually ended up putting launches in California anyways through Vandenberg/Point Arguello, launching over the Pacific instead of Baja.

The Bahamas, of course, were British and hence were not considered as launch bases. Establishment of range stations there was, however, important for going ahead with the Cape. ITTL, I suspect a site in the Bahamas would be considered but rejected due to the (admittedly small) logistical burden created by having to ship in every test vehicle, instead of being able to transport some supplies by road or rail.

One interesting alternative possibility I just thought of might be Wallops in Virginia. That was created by NACA in 1945 for high-altitude sounding rocket and balloon launches, and has since been adapted into a space launch facility (albeit a relatively minor one). Virginia of course is quite convenient to NACA's pre-NASA center in Virginia (Langley), so it's plausible that if some similar organization is created here that it would also have a test center in that location. If it were tapped to lead a civilian space program, like NASA, or more pertinently the Naval Research Laboratory (which ran Project Vanguard), then it might choose to use the existing facilities at Wallops rather than develop new ones at the Cape (assuming that a test ground wasn't established at the Cape, or that there was some reason like the eternal Air Force unwillingness to work closely with NASA for using those). Wallops has a latitude similar to many other launch centers, such as Baikonur, Jiuquan, or Tanegashima, so it's not impractically high up, either, if not as optimally located at the Cape or Kourou.
 
I'm pretty sure I mentioned it before, but I'm also sure it was someplace obscure. Chayat Haaretz - life of the land - is TTL's quasi-Zionist movement, but its goal is cultural autonomy and management of Jewish heritage sites rather than statehood.
Ah. So "L'Chayim" is technically 'to lives' rather than 'to life' as it's usually translated?

I'm sure you did mention it before, but I couldn't be bothered to search the thread... I think I was on my tablet, which makes searching even harder... Besides, I can't be the ONLY goy who forgot that detail:p
 
Still, if you look at a map of Florida like this one, you can see that the Cape sticks way out from the coast. Not a big deal with things like the Space Shuttle or Saturn V, or even the Atlas, but early on, when they were just launching relatively small rockets, that gave them a pretty decent-size clear area for launches that had no chance of becoming unsuitable. The next farthest-south area with anything close to the same launch azimuths available looks to me like West Palm Beach, which was, like Miami, already a fairly important city by the time the Cape was created.

Hmmm. Then if the resort infrastructure develops on the Gulf coast first, and if the West Palm area isn't heavily settled when the space industry gets going, would NASA (or whatever TTL's space agency is called) set up shop there instead? West Palm as an industry town, possibly surrounded by resorts and railroad/port hubs that grew up later, could be interesting. On the other hand, Canaveral seems more likely to stay undisturbed - subsequent development around West Palm might make *NASA's logistics awkward and prevent the launch site from expanding to meet needs, and that kind of adjacent development is a lot less likely to happen near Canaveral.

Ah. So "L'Chayim" is technically 'to lives' rather than 'to life' as it's usually translated?

No, "to life" is correct. "Chai" is the word for life; both L'Chayim and Chayat are grammatical constructs. Don't ask me to describe what they are; my Hebrew at its best (which was many years ago) was barely conversational, and rules of grammar are beyond me.
 
Oh, I was so hoping you or e of pi would answer this question!:)

Well, it's a bit of a long and complicated story, as most things are. I know that even in the 19th century Canaveral was identified as being pretty good for this, given its famous use by Verne, but on the other hand that was partially because there was an organization similar to the one in that novel operating in the area at the time (probably because it was in the middle of nowhere).
Middle of nowhere, one key criterion.
... you can see that the Cape sticks way out from the coast. Not a big deal with things like the Space Shuttle or Saturn V, or even the Atlas, but early on, when they were just launching relatively small rockets, that gave them a pretty decent-size clear area for launches that had no chance of becoming unsuitable. The next farthest-south area with anything close to the same launch azimuths available looks to me like West Palm Beach, which was, like Miami, already a fairly important city by the time the Cape was created.
It's an open question whether it would be ITTL, but going farther south than Canaveral in Florida means that now the Bahamas are due east; it is a good idea to avoid the launch tracks going directly over them--near them is OK, great in fact for downrange tracking and basing boats and planes to scramble out to investigate wreckage from an aborted launch. But not so good to go right over them; Canaveral is about 2 degrees or 120 nautical miles north. The launch track of a "due east" launch would start to veer south of course so I'm not so sure it avoids going over the Bahamas OTL, but anyway the more northerly site of Canaveral reduces the problem.
Additionally, according to the 45th Space Wing's official history (they're the people who run the Air Force operations at the Cape), it was logistically convenient....
A good trick when one has tried to meet the "middle of nowhere" criterion.
...ITTL, I suspect a site in the Bahamas would be considered but rejected due to the (admittedly small) logistical burden created by having to ship in every test vehicle, instead of being able to transport some supplies by road or rail.
I've been fooling around with Google Maps and I identify two possible candidate islands:

Great Abaco Island--specifically the middle part of it, centered on a large bay on the east which oddly enough Google Maps does not name, between Lynyard Cay and Winding Bay--the capes defining it seem about the right size for launch complexes. To match the Kennedy/Cape Canaveral Air Force Station complex pretty much the whole central part of the island would have to be annexed to the station. Then of course OTL I'm sure quite a lot of the support that these complexes rely on comes from corporate facilities off the site but in the neighborhood, so the whole island and parts of neighboring ones might wind up being essentially part of the launch complex.

Mayaguana Island is the easternmost island of the chain/legal entity of Bahamas; it is near Grand Turks and Caicos but they are well to the south. I'd think this would give the clearest range of launch azimuths out of any US possession ITTL. However the island is small, less than half the area of OTL Kennedy Center itself (without adding in CCAFS) and quite isolated. The OTL population is under 300 so getting eminent domain would probably not be a big problem, but it is 450 miles east of Palm Beach. Definitely the middle of nowhere, but the logistics would suck, and the limited space would impose some limits on what could be launched there.

One does not yet know what sort of space program TTL USA would go in for though. OTL, in the 1960s designers were looking ahead, in the 70s and beyond, to making launchers capable of putting a million pounds of payload into orbit!:eek: It sounds a bit less Cecil De Mille when you convert to metric and use tons; that's "only" 450 metric tons, "only" 4 and a half times the capability of the Saturn V.:D Is that too much to ask?:rolleyes: Picture a rocket with 22 of the Saturn V's 5 F-1 engines--or a mere 20 or perhaps 18 of the upgraded F-1A. Or something like six space shuttles launching simultaneously....:p I don't know if Kennedy Space Center was meant to be able to handle those monsters (which were also supposed to be reusable by the way) or whether it was assumed some new complex would be set up somewhere.

So, if ITTL the American space program is more modest, they might still plan for a margin of optimism that would demand rather more elbow room than they need immediately. Being based on an itty bitty island puts some definite limits on those ambitions.
One interesting alternative possibility I just thought of might be Wallops in Virginia. That was created by NACA in 1945 for high-altitude sounding rocket and balloon launches, and has since been adapted into a space launch facility (albeit a relatively minor one). Virginia of course is quite convenient to NACA's pre-NASA center in Virginia (Langley), so it's plausible that if some similar organization is created here that it would also have a test center in that location. If it were tapped to lead a civilian space program, like NASA, or more pertinently the Naval Research Laboratory (which ran Project Vanguard), then it might choose to use the existing facilities at Wallops rather than develop new ones at the Cape (assuming that a test ground wasn't established at the Cape, or that there was some reason like the eternal Air Force unwillingness to work closely with NASA for using those). Wallops has a latitude similar to many other launch centers, such as Baikonur, Jiuquan, or Tanegashima, so it's not impractically high up, either, if not as optimally located at the Cape or Kourou.

Again it depends on ambitions. A high latitude site does not impede missile development in the least; no one cares how high the inclination of a missile's orbit is; it just has to complete a suborbital path and reach its target and you can launch from anywhere to achieve that. So the "elbow room" criterion applies most strongly, not only for public safety but also for military security and secrecy.

I can go you one better, off the top of my head--the Jersey Pine Barrens. That's where Fort Dix and Lakehurst Naval Air Station are OTL, on the northern fringes of it anyway. For whatever reason there's this desolate stretch of coastline way up between Philadelphia and New York City, quite accessible to some of the biggest industrial concentrations in the nation yet with big stretches of land easily cleared of all innocent bystanders.

OTOH if reaching useful orbits is the criterion, I'm a fanatic for low latitudes. Mayaguana seems the limit there; it's six degrees south of Canaveral.

But Canaveral of course has proven it is good enough. As to be sure so have the higher latitude sites you've mentioned.

I wanted there to be a NACA equivalent ITTL--in fact, what I wanted was a NACA on steroids, at least partially under Peace Department supervision. This would give the PD something real to do. My notion was that a political deadlock between people who wanted to build up the US military along OTL lines (for reasons both of imperial ambition and corporate pork) and the stronger pacifists of the timeline--make developing new airplane models adequate to defend the USA in case of need the responsibility of an agency under the Peace department, so there are checks and balances between prudent defense preparedness and "merchant of death" boosterism, and also charge it with assisting American aeronautics firms competitive through aggressive development of advanced technology; this in lieu of these firms expecting a chance to bid on juicy Army and Navy orders--the services get a very thin gruel of token numbers of fairly modern planes, and funds to keep a flying circus of obsolete models going, so their aviators have some flight experience and have to share brief tours with the latest stuff--in case of serious war threats the services would of course be expanded with orders of the latest stuff. This way the US has some preparedness for serious war should matters come to that, but avoids the high costs of maintaining a strong force and the implicit threat that conveys.

Such was my suggestion, but it didn't spark any interest. The Department of Peace, we are told, remained a moribund and irrelevant political sinecure after Jane Addams left it; it did not acquire an air R&D arm, whereas I can't imagine the US Army Air Corps could have ever amounted to much, while even the Navy is probably consistently smaller than it was in any given year of OTL (before the WWII buildup I mean--after 1937 or so the USN of TTL would be increasingly dwarfed by the one of OTL).

All of this means--very few tax dollars supporting the various aeronautical firms; they all have to make it or break on private, commercial business (or war materiel sales to overseas customers--but the Great Powers will have their own and their client's markets sewn up, so that leaves slim pickings).

Therefore the infrastructure that is close enough to the needs of a rocketry program would be mighty scarce in the USA.

This is my hidden agenda for the Peace Dept super-NACA; I wanted a more robust, cutting-edge US aero industry without the OTL war-mongering, and I wanted a government agency besides the Navy capable of taking up the mission of space exploration.

I suppose there is probably a NACA of some kind ITTL--maybe. OTL it was a Wilson Administration thing, tied to the scare and eventual involvement in the Great War. God knows it operated on a shoestring budget OTL, so it won't take much tax dollars to have something like it by the way here, but again the government's involvement and concerns with aeronautics are less here; if the alt-NACA is defunded in proportion to the military, it will probably drop dead of anemia. With the OTL one a war-boom sort of thing I'd expect its ATL cousin to have been something cooked up by the Lodge administration--and axed when he finally left office by the anti-war coalition that took over. (This was the juncture where I hoped the Rube Goldberg Peace Department NACA would come into being). So there might well be nothing of the sort.

If there is, I guess it would have an HQ somewhere in range of Washington, but not necessarily in DC. I've personally resided at Langley AFB and I know that it is a good half-day's drive from DC, not exactly next door--but it is possible to get from one to the other within the same business day. (In the early 20th century I don't know that one could shuttle back to one's starting point again also in that same day, and still have time to get any business done).

So I don't see the hand of inexorable fate at work in locating the main offices of NACA in southern Virginia rather than say in northern Virginia or in Maryland or even in say the Pine Barrens!:rolleyes:
 
Out of curiosity, is there a development of Igbo 'nationalism' or imagined community similar to the slowly growing consciousness of Yoruba people ITL
 
I am thinking that the change from "Ottoman Empire" to "Ottoman Union" poses a problem. In Ottoman Turkish, the expression "Ottoman Empire" did not exist to begin with (although the Ottoman Emperor had Qaysar, "Emperor" among his titles IIRC) as "Empire" in general is actually quite an unfamiliar concept in traditional Islamic political language (Modern Turkish has "Imparatorlogu" for "Empire" but I think it wasn't in use before WWI).
The expression used IOTL (and which would likely stick ITTL) is "Devlet-i Osmaniye", which means both "Ottoman state" and "Ottoman dynasty". "Ottoman Union" would probably sound "Ittihad-i Osmani" which to me sounds very awkward considering that "Osmani" is a dynastic name (I am not sure about Turkish, but in Arabic I think that "Ittihad" used in a political sense is a back-translation from Western languages).
Now, the new Union is not exactly a state in the Modern Western sense, but could still count as a traditional dawla/devlet especially since its common ground is actually allegiance to the Ottoman dynasty (it would be like saying "Windsor Commonwealth" or more precisely "Saxe-Coburg-Gotha-Commonwealth" in place of "British Commonwealth". Maybe it's just me, but it sounds awakward).

I am struggling to find a word that describes the new reality in the political traditions of the area better. Maybe something like "jama' " ("grouping, gathering, union") or a formation on that root might work for Arabic. It would likely have to be a neologism.
Otherwise, there's a traditional way around that would be even simpler: just "the (Ottoman) Caliphate". ;)
 
I am thinking that the change from "Ottoman Empire" to "Ottoman Union" poses a problem. In Ottoman Turkish, the expression "Ottoman Empire" did not exist to begin with (although the Ottoman Emperor had Qaysar, "Emperor" among his titles IIRC) as "Empire" in general is actually quite an unfamiliar concept in traditional Islamic political language (Modern Turkish has "Imparatorlogu" for "Empire" but I think it wasn't in use before WWI).
The expression used IOTL (and which would likely stick ITTL) is "Devlet-i Osmaniye", which means both "Ottoman state" and "Ottoman dynasty". "Ottoman Union" would probably sound "Ittihad-i Osmani" which to me sounds very awkward considering that "Osmani" is a dynastic name (I am not sure about Turkish, but in Arabic I think that "Ittihad" used in a political sense is a back-translation from Western languages).
Now, the new Union is not exactly a state in the Modern Western sense, but could still count as a traditional dawla/devlet especially since its common ground is actually allegiance to the Ottoman dynasty (it would be like saying "Windsor Commonwealth" or more precisely "Saxe-Coburg-Gotha-Commonwealth" in place of "British Commonwealth". Maybe it's just me, but it sounds awakward).

I am struggling to find a word that describes the new reality in the political traditions of the area better. Maybe something like "jama' " ("grouping, gathering, union") or a formation on that root might work for Arabic. It would likely have to be a neologism.
Otherwise, there's a traditional way around that would be even simpler: just "the (Ottoman) Caliphate". ;)

The concept of adopting the Arabic (and Ottoman Turkish) Dawlah/Devlet (meaning dynasty) as the translation of Western concepts of State/Nation occurs around the time of the Napoleonic invasion of Egypt and the subsequent Egyptian scholarly missions to Europe, which is, I believe, before the PoD. So the name of the Empire (which always used on its documents and passports IOTL "Empire ottomane" in French, and in Ottoman Turkish: Dawlat al-aaliya al-othmaniya "Sublime/Supreme/Most High Ottoman State[Dynasty].

Unfortunately, I'm not sure of the history of the word ettihad, which does mean today labour union, political union (USA, UK, UAE, etc.) but before this is the Quranic Arabic word "ahzab," meaning the coalition, confederacy, etc. This could be a logical answer. Today it's used to mean political party, or bipartisan, multipartisan, etc. but this is a much more recent development in the Arabic language, well after Malê's PoD.

So I'm going off on a creative license limb here. Al - Ahzab is a plural word, which I said means today partisans, but in the past meant clans, members, partisans, confederates, coalition, etc.

Make it in adjective form, Al Ahzabiya, is a word we use in Arabic today to vaguely mean multipartisan, and even not officially. But Ottoman Turkish has no issue adopting Arabic words as concepts in its own language. The use of the word will gain traction anyhow amongst the Arabophones, and it makes perfect sense.

In my opinion, what made the name of the Ottoman Empire in Turkish and Arabic seem imperial/tyrannical/etc. was the use of " al-'aaliya," describing the dynasty/state as Supreme, Most High, Sublime, etc. What if we change the Ottoman Turkish/Arabic name to remove this, and include the concept of ahzabiya mentioned above.

Al Dawlah Al Ahzabiya Al Osmaniya: The Confederated/United/Multipartisan/etc. Ottoman Dynasty/State

Given the precedence of using the French "Empire ottomane" on all its latter official documents, I see no reason why this could not become "Union ottomane." Until its dissolution, it was not a nation-state in the WWI-era conception, and other states knew this as well. Union is, I think, a decent enough translation and shows a giant semantic difference, which is what JE is going for. The same significant semantic difference replacing the Ottoman Turkish/Arabic official name adjective of "Sublime" to "Confederated."

This way, as you mentioned, the Ottoman Dynasty/State is still referenced as it is the adhesiveness...But we clearly see there is no political supremacy, and the members/tiers/provinces see their mention (as partisans, confederates) included equally describing the Dynasty/State

Alternatively, you have "Al Dawlah Al 3osmaniya wa ahzabha," meaning, the "Ottoman State/Dynasty and Partisans/Confederates/Members/Associates/etc." (This national naming formula has precedence in the Arabo-Islamic world, see: Sultante of Najd and Hejaz and Its Dependancies.") But I feel the prior form is simple but significant.
 
Last edited:
The concept of adopting the Arabic (and Ottoman Turkish) Dawlah/Devlet (meaning dynasty) as the translation of Western concepts of State/Nation occurs around the time of the Napoleonic invasion of Egypt and the subsequent Egyptian scholarly missions to Europe, which is, I believe, before the PoD. So the name of the Empire (which always used on its documents and passports IOTL "Empire ottomane" in French, and in Ottoman Turkish: Dawlat al-aaliya al-othmaniya "Sublime/Supreme/Most High Ottoman State[Dynasty].

Unfortunately, I'm not sure of the history of the word ettihad, which does mean today labour union, political union (USA, UK, UAE, etc.) but before this is the Quranic Arabic word "ahzab," meaning the coalition, confederacy, etc. This could be a logical answer. Today it's used to mean political party, or bipartisan, multipartisan, etc. but this is a much more recent development in the Arabic language, well after Malê's PoD.

So I'm going off on a creative license limb here. Al - Ahzab is a plural word, which I said means today partisans, but in the past meant clans, members, partisans, confederates, coalition, etc.

Make it in adjective form, Al Ahzabiya, is a word we use in Arabic today to vaguely mean multipartisan, and even not officially. But Ottoman Turkish has no issue adopting Arabic words as concepts in its own language. The use of the word will gain traction anyhow amongst the Arabophones, and it makes perfect sense.

In my opinion, what made the name of the Ottoman Empire in Turkish and Arabic seem imperial/tyrannical/etc. was the use of " al-'aaliya," describing the dynasty/state as Supreme, Most High, Sublime, etc. What if we change the Ottoman Turkish/Arabic name to remove this, and include the concept of ahzabiya mentioned above.

Al Dawlah Al Ahzabiya Al Osmaniya: The Confederated/United/Multipartisan/etc. Ottoman Dynasty/State

Given the precedence of using the French "Empire ottomane" on all its latter official documents, I see no reason why this could not become "Union ottomane." Until its dissolution, it was not a nation-state in the WWI-era conception, and other states knew this as well. Union is, I think, a decent enough translation and shows a giant semantic difference, which is what JE is going for. The same significant semantic difference replacing the Ottoman Turkish/Arabic official name adjective of "Sublime" to "Confederated."

This way, as you mentioned, the Ottoman Dynasty/State is still referenced as it is the adhesiveness...But we clearly see there is no political supremacy, and the members/tiers/provinces see their mention (as partisans, confederates) included equally describing the Dynasty/State

Alternatively, you have "Al Dawlah Al 3osmaniya wa ahzabha," meaning, the "Ottoman State/Dynasty and Partisans/Confederates/Members/Associates/etc." (This national naming formula has precedence in the Arabo-Islamic world, see: Sultante of Najd and Hejaz and Its Dependancies.") But I feel the prior form is simple but significant.

Very well spoken.
You are right about the "'Aaliye" bit, which I skipped for the sake of brevity (and because I saw that as a determiner of "devlet" which was the main point for me). Dawla/devlet is a word with a very long and interesting story. I won't bother the TL's readers with the details, but I would argue that in post-Napoleonic times, it meant "Dynasty" and "State" at once, especially in the Ottoman Empire's case (well, in the Ottoman case, the dynasty was indeed the State, in a sense). Note that this may parallel the earlier evolution of the Western word "state" itself, which according to Quentin Skinner, until the Renaissance mainly referred to the "status" of the ruler.
"Union" works very well for rendering the authorial intent in the Western languages and I can actually see it used in official translation. What troubles me are the Ottoman Turkish/Arabic forms.
Ahzab and derivates don't ring very well to me unfortunately. The singular form "Hizb" is very markedly connotated with the sense of "one party" in the Qur'an, and the form you propose actually evokes to me the notion of division and fractiousness. Which I guess would be accurate, but hardly something you want to stress in the official names.
However, since I guess that you are a native speaker of Arabic, what rings to you is to be preferred to what rings to me.
A check on my dictionary confirms my impression, but also gives me verb "hazzaba" which means both "to gather, to group" and "to form a party" (i.e. a division). So maybe it verbal noun "tahzib" would work? Would be something like "Al-dawla al-tahzibiyya al-uthmaniyya". Hmmm. Dunno.
 
Very well spoken.
You are right about the "'Aaliye" bit, which I skipped for the sake of brevity (and because I saw that as a determiner of "devlet" which was the main point for me). Dawla/devlet is a word with a very long and interesting story. I won't bother the TL's readers with the details, but I would argue that in post-Napoleonic times, it meant "Dynasty" and "State" at once, especially in the Ottoman Empire's case (well, in the Ottoman case, the dynasty was indeed the State, in a sense). Note that this may parallel the earlier evolution of the Western word "state" itself, which according to Quentin Skinner, until the Renaissance mainly referred to the "status" of the ruler.
"Union" works very well for rendering the authorial intent in the Western languages and I can actually see it used in official translation. What troubles me are the Ottoman Turkish/Arabic forms.
Ahzab and derivates don't ring very well to me unfortunately. The singular form "Hizb" is very markedly connotated with the sense of "one party" in the Qur'an, and the form you propose actually evokes to me the notion of division and fractiousness. Which I guess would be accurate, but hardly something you want to stress in the official names.
However, since I guess that you are a native speaker of Arabic, what rings to you is to be preferred to what rings to me.
A check on my dictionary confirms my impression, but also gives me verb "hazzaba" which means both "to gather, to group" and "to form a party" (i.e. a division). So maybe it verbal noun "tahzib" would work? Would be something like "Al-dawla al-tahzibiyya al-uthmaniyya". Hmmm. Dunno.

To be honest, I had the same quagmire when I initially proposed it. But we are understanding the linguistic psychology of Muslim Arabic-speakers today, complete with the socio-political history of OTL's Islam and Arabo-Muslim world. The lack of the colonial experience I think will massively influence Ottoman citizens' relation to the religion, which I think will be much less monolithically viewed by non-Muslims (contrary to OTL) as well as by Muslims (contrary to the sorts of auto-orientalisation one could observe in the way OTL Muslims relate to Islam after the colonial experience and after the dissolution of the Caliphate.) I.E. We rarely see condemnation of the madhahab system in OTL pre-WWI.

What I think we could conclude, although not forcibly so, is that the concept of multipartisanship/confederates, i.e. ahzabiya, could indeed be viewed neutrally or politically without monolithic Islamic views on the word that, you correctly stated, one could expect to find in OTL.

ALternatively, IOTL, the Committee of Union and Progress founded in 1889 calls "union" "itihat" and committee a word deriving from the arabic root ja-ma-'aa. It could be called, as you first suggested, by itthad/ittihat: al itihad al osmani, literally the Ottoman Union (making this whole discussion irrelevant, haha.) Or, al ittihad al-dowlah al-osmaniya, "Union of the Ottoman Dynasty/State." Not sure how I feel about that one though.

Fascinating conversation, I hate to derail the thread, but fascinating nonetheless.
 
Last edited:
To be honest, I had the same quagmire when I initially proposed it. But we are understanding the linguistic psychology of Muslim Arabic-speakers today, complete with the socio-political history of OTL's Islam and Arabo-Muslim world. The lack of the colonial experience I think will massively influence Ottoman citizens' relation to the religion, which I think will be much less monolithically viewed by non-Muslims (contrary to OTL) as well as by Muslims (contrary to the sorts of auto-orientalisation one could observe in the way OTL Muslims relate to Islam after the colonial experience and after the dissolution of the Caliphate.) I.E. We rarely see condemnation of the madhahab system in OTL pre-WWI.

What I think we could conclude, although not forcibly so, is that the concept of multipartisanship/confederates, i.e. ahzabiya, could indeed be viewed neutrally or politically without monolithic Islamic views on the word that, you correctly stated, one could expect to find in OTL.

ALternatively, IOTL, the Committee of Union and Progress founded in 1889 calls "union" "itihat" and committee a word deriving from the arabic root ja-ma-'aa. It could be called, as you first suggested, by itthad/ittihat: al itihad al osmani, literally the Ottoman Union (making this whole discussion irrelevant, haha.) Or, al ittihad al-dowlah al-osmaniya, "Union of the Ottoman Dynasty/State." Not sure how I feel about that one though.

Fascinating conversation, I hate to derail the thread, but fascinating nonetheless.

Or "al-dawla al-uthmaniyya al-muttahida" (United Ottoman State)? However, while "dawla" as "state" may be "united", in the sense of "dynasty" it would be meaningless...
Another possibility is "Dawla al-Umamiyya" (from "umam" the plural of "umma", "community"/"nation"*.

* "Nation" in the sense of the people, without strong association with a given territory, which is expressed by "watan".
 
Or "al-dawla al-uthmaniyya al-muttahida" (United Ottoman State)? However, while "dawla" as "state" may be "united", in the sense of "dynasty" it would be meaningless...
Another possibility is "Dawla al-Umamiyya" (from "umam" the plural of "umma", "community"/"nation"*.

* "Nation" in the sense of the people, without strong association with a given territory, which is expressed by "watan".

Exactly, a united dynasty is bizarre...But al umum alosmaniya, the Ottoman Communities/Union/Nations? Includes the caliphal dynasty for the appeasement and continued Islamic identity, but pluralisation of ummah expands to include millets, "peoples," however the reader chooses to understand?
 
Exactly, a united dynasty is bizarre...But al umum alosmaniya, the Ottoman Communities/Union/Nations? Includes the caliphal dynasty for the appeasement and continued Islamic identity, but pluralisation of ummah expands to include millets, "peoples," however the reader chooses to understand?

That was my idea (after looking at the lexical choices in al-Farabi's Madina and al-Mawardi's Ahkam). Maybe "al-umum al-osmaniyya al-muttahida"?
 
That was my idea (after looking at the lexical choices in al-Farabi's Madina and al-Mawardi's Ahkam). Maybe "al-umum al-osmaniyya al-muttahida"?

I really like this one, and it includes union, making Ottoman Union a very true translation. Bravo :)
 
Digression:
Modern airlines Etihad and Emirates both fly out of the UAE. I gather from the above discussion that Etihad takes its name from the U and Emirates from the E of UAE?

Always wondered what Etihad meant.
 
Digression:
Modern airlines Etihad and Emirates both fly out of the UAE. I gather from the above discussion that Etihad takes its name from the U and Emirates from the E of UAE?

Always wondered what Etihad meant.

Etihad means "Union" (I guess this transcription reflects the local pronounciation of the standard form "Ittihad") so yeah, I think you are right.
 
I really like this one, and it includes union, making Ottoman Union a very true translation. Bravo :)

Thanks. It is sometimes comforting to see all those hours spent trying to make sense of obscure bits of Arabic lexicography were not entirely wasted. ;)
 
This is why I love TTL - not only do readers point out lexical problems I never considered, but they solve them in a way that improves on the original. Al-Umum al-Osmaniyya al-Muttahida it is - a union, and also a community of nations.

Out of curiosity, is there a development of Igbo 'nationalism' or imagined community similar to the slowly growing consciousness of Yoruba people ITL

Absolutely. Igboland has been politically united as the Lower Niger Colony since the 1880s, and gained dominion status as a unit; also, the shared struggle of the Imperial-era Women's War and the postwar independence movements have spread a sense of nationhood from the elite to the rank and file. Igbo nationalism is actually tied up with Christianity, and with Christian liberation theology, in much the same way as Malê identity is tied up with Islam, and during the Imperial period, there was some crossover between the two.

Some of the drama in the post-independence era will hinge on how the national identities that developed during colonialism interact with each other as sovereign states. The Igbo, the Yoruba and the Malê will all be part of that.

I've been fooling around with Google Maps and I identify two possible candidate islands:

Great Abaco Island--specifically the middle part of it, centered on a large bay on the east which oddly enough Google Maps does not name, between Lynyard Cay and Winding Bay--the capes defining it seem about the right size for launch complexes. To match the Kennedy/Cape Canaveral Air Force Station complex pretty much the whole central part of the island would have to be annexed to the station. Then of course OTL I'm sure quite a lot of the support that these complexes rely on comes from corporate facilities off the site but in the neighborhood, so the whole island and parts of neighboring ones might wind up being essentially part of the launch complex.

I wonder if the Bahamas would lobby for this. They'll probably have statehood by the 1950s and will still be a relatively underdeveloped region; maybe their senators would push for the space center to be built there in order to boost the economy. On the other hand, the population of Great Abaco might be very much opposed, whereas a Canaveral launch site would involve less displacement.

I wanted there to be a NACA equivalent ITTL--in fact, what I wanted was a NACA on steroids, at least partially under Peace Department supervision. This would give the PD something real to do. [...] Such was my suggestion, but it didn't spark any interest. The Department of Peace, we are told, remained a moribund and irrelevant political sinecure after Jane Addams left it; it did not acquire an air R&D arm

Well, history isn't over yet, and the history of the space industry has hardly begun. It's been mentioned that the Second Washington Conference was partly the result of a more activist PD, and one that has gained experience in coordinating the efforts of diverse actors. If TTL's space program is a product of cooperative effort by several governmental and private players, and especially if there are some international aspects to it, who knows what could happen?
 
Top