Malê Rising

Sulemain

Banned
The Ottomans might be unhappy about it though.

It's a mere continuation of an age old thing. Anyway, Oman is a sovereign state, it associates with whom it wills. Of course, the UK probably won't have a "withdrawal from East of Suez moment" ITTL, or, if it does, it will probably be a lot more deliberate and well thought out.
 
It's a mere continuation of an age old thing. Anyway, Oman is a sovereign state, it associates with whom it wills. Of course, the UK probably won't have a "withdrawal from East of Suez moment" ITTL, or, if it does, it will probably be a lot more deliberate and well thought out.

As long as Madras remains a Dominion, and a presence is mantained in Malaya, Britain's eastward projection is likely to remain much more significant than IOTL, but also less overtly imperialistic.

Of course Oman will naturally have strong ties with India as it almost always has done. I can see the Ottomans trying to project influence over the entire Arabian Peninsula and associate other local states there to them, but of course Oman isn't necessarily going to adhere tu such a scheme, and association with India makes sense to them.
By the way, these aren't necessarily mutually exclusive options, especially in a post-Westphalian context.
Another place where I can see a lot of Indian soft power exerted is the Geledi Sultanate.
 
Part of the problem with the UN is that it tried to freeze in place the great-power hierarchy as it existed after WW2, with the result that the Security Council became more an impediment than anything else. TTL's international bodies will also have their problems, but that, at least, won't be one of them.

The Court of Arbitration has structure similar to the UNSC, although without veto power, the position of post-war Great Powers is considerably lessened. So, there has been a "freeze" ITTL, but much more symbolic.
Also, that Great Power hierarchy was largely wishful thinking even during the Cold War, as shown by the KMT keeping the Chinese seat for a generation without possibly being considered a Great Power by any standard.
By the way, what are the changes in the Great Power hierarchy ITTL so far? Clearly British position ha worsened a lot since ca. 1900, courtesy of the Imperials, but is there any country that has risen to Great Power status since? China I suppose (you already stated India hasn't gone that far... yet)? And how much power differential is there among the Big Six (or Seven)? Germany must still be primus inter pares I suppose, but how much does it outweigh, say, France in terms of GDP? Is it in the process of being surpassed by the US?
 

Sulemain

Banned
I think power, ITTL, will be a lot less focused on military strength. Even today in OTL some countries seem to think military power is the only kind of power, ITTL, that's not the case and has become so alot earlier. Germany might be economically dominant, but the German people watch American cinema for instance.

BTW, I suspect thinkers like Erasmus (a man I admire greatly) will be more widely known ITTL.
 
I think power, ITTL, will be a lot less focused on military strength. Even today in OTL some countries seem to think military power is the only kind of power, ITTL, that's not the case and has become so alot earlier. Germany might be economically dominant, but the German people watch American cinema for instance.

BTW, I suspect thinkers like Erasmus (a man I admire greatly) will be more widely known ITTL.

I agree. However, "soft power" is quite a thing IOTL too.
 
Good points. The multipolar nature of the world and the much more familiar nature of making regulations truly international, which is a process we're still trying to figure out in the post-Cold War blocs era, will have a similarly accelerated development here given the way the timeline has developed.

On the other hand, just like the breakdown of Westphalian Sovereignty was the result of some very bad shocks, I think there will be growing pains associated with those changes as we near the end of the TL's timeframe.

Regarding the US and immigration, I too think there will be less ugliness, as I believe you and I discussed before many pages back, although I don't think it's because there's less of them. Remember, ITTL, there were no exclusionary laws towards immigration, which means that unlike IOTL where the Chinese Exclusionary Act and other immigration acts caused a break that allowed mainstream WASP culture to "digest" the groups that were already there, there was never a chance here. JE has said before that one of the things that will distinguish the US is a continuation of the 1800's era conflict between ties to the old country (with heritage languages doing much better in certain regions) and standardization that comes from a mass media age. Honestly, I think the US will be far more accepting of the ideas of foreigners because, well, so long as they're willing to do their fair share they're not too different from the Schmidts and Brauns down the street that speak German at home, read German newspapers, and go to Catholic mass but work with English speaking Protestants like good citizens. Having people in your local community that hold to different cultures does wonders for removing the narrow-minded America Only mentality.

Although, now that I think of it, one area that will likely have less immigration to the United States is the Latin American states. As you said, Brazil is significantly more developed ITTL and will be a major attraction for labor immigration, but Mexico is also doing much better under its Catholic-Socialist coalition government. Without the kind of economic and social conditions that the Great Recession and the drug trade are forcing on the region now, I think a lot more will choose to stay in their home countries rather than immigrate for "good work" :)rolleyes:) in the US.

Can I just say that, if for nothing else, I'd really love living in this world because as a foreign language and ESL teacher my job security would be amazing here?:p

I'm afraid I don't know what an "inversion" is in this context.:eek: Can you or someone point me to definitions and examples?
To put it simply, it's when a company from one country buys a subsidiary company originating from another company, then exploits a loophole in restructuring the parent company so that it is "officially owned" by the new foreign subsidiary. The result is a change of corporate nationality and the ability to avoid a very large part of the company's tax bill, even as they enjoy the benefits of the profitable market and infrastructure of the original company location. The current estimate by the US Gov't is that these kind of re-organizations will cost the United States 20 billion dollars in tax revenue over the next decade with the current set up allowing these moves.

The example that had this in my mind was the issue with Walgreens recently, where the company was buying a chain in the UK and had proposed a plan to investors that would allow them to take a lower corporate tax rate and keep more of their profits for the company and shareholders, but that fell through due to details in the negotiation of the acquisition of the UK chain.
 
Barring a nuclear exchange (which probably isn't on the cards) or something like OTL's Congo war (which is less likely than OTL, given the relatively stronger states in Africa), yes, this was the last big one.

That sounds like a good time for a new (world) map.

Right now, they're hedging their bets. China hasn't declared itself a republic as it was before Ma Qi, but neither has it put another emperor on the throne, largely for the reasons Jord839 stated. A Hungarian-style regency without a monarch is a strong possibility for the near term - this will upset the fewest people, and it will enable the hard decisions to be kicked down the road - but beyond that, nearly anything could happen depending on political developments.

Is there a good chance that the Chinese Empire becomes an elective monarchy?
IMO that would be the best option for China.
 
Say, would there be an international move for a halal brand association that would police food and drink in the Islamic world?

Then again, with this TL's more diverse Islam I can only see such a thing only existing for a few years before collapsing in on itself.
 
Say, would there be an international move for a halal brand association that would police food and drink in the Islamic world?

Then again, with this TL's more diverse Islam I can only see such a thing only existing for a few years before collapsing in on itself.

I doubt it.
It would be likely to be seen as a "Capitalist" scheme (as such things mostly are IOTL) are rejected by a large enough fraction of TTL's Muslims accordingly.
I don't think that branding will be so prominent ITTL, especially not branding based out of religious identity.
 
India ITTL certainly isn't shy. Could it assume the role of 'protector' of the OTL UAE ITTL?

I suspect ITTL India to have a lot of involvement in Oman and the rest of the ME when/if the UK settles on more European matters.

The Ottomans might be unhappy about it though.

It's a mere continuation of an age old thing. Anyway, Oman is a sovereign state, it associates with whom it wills. Of course, the UK probably won't have a "withdrawal from East of Suez moment" ITTL, or, if it does, it will probably be a lot more deliberate and well thought out.

As long as Madras remains a Dominion, and a presence is mantained in Malaya, Britain's eastward projection is likely to remain much more significant than IOTL, but also less overtly imperialistic.

Of course Oman will naturally have strong ties with India as it almost always has done. I can see the Ottomans trying to project influence over the entire Arabian Peninsula and associate other local states there to them, but of course Oman isn't necessarily going to adhere tu such a scheme, and association with India makes sense to them.
By the way, these aren't necessarily mutually exclusive options, especially in a post-Westphalian context.

Britain won't be retreating from the Indian Ocean anytime soon, if ever. By this time, the British Empire is no longer really an empire, but the commonwealth that eventually forms will be somewhat stronger than OTL, and the Malays, Sinhalese and Tamils will still look to London as a protector and key trading partner. Oman and the Trucial States may well decide to stay part of that network as a counterweight to the Ottoman Empire. On the other hand, as Falecius points out, that won't prevent India, or for that matter the Ottomans, from developing close relationships and having influence of their own. For that matter, Persia will probably want to cozy up to Bahrain. I expect that there will be several overlapping spheres in this region.

Another place where I can see a lot of Indian soft power exerted is the Geledi Sultanate.

Almost certainly. Kismayo under Indian sponsorship will be an economic magnet for the region, and Geledi will see a close relationship with India as a counterbalance to the power of Ethiopia and Zanzibar. I expect there will be a fair amount of two-way migration, and that Indian film and music will have considerable influence (as they did even in OTL in parts of East Africa).

Say, what are the Finns up to right now? Anything been done with the Aland Islands?

The Finns are doing fine - Finland is friendly with both Russia and Germany, it has prospered with light industry, agriculture and forestry, and it's a contented social democracy.

As mentioned in post 3545, Åland is an autonomous county within the Finnish kingdom, with its own parliament and the king of Sweden as its count.

The Court of Arbitration has structure similar to the UNSC, although without veto power, the position of post-war Great Powers is considerably lessened. So, there has been a "freeze" ITTL, but much more symbolic.

True - the turn-of-the-20th-century Great Powers do have permanent seats, but without a veto, their advantage is limited to their voice always being heard. Also, it's always possible to expand the court's membership or create new permanent seats - this hasn't yet been done, but it's been discussed.

By the way, what are the changes in the Great Power hierarchy ITTL so far? Clearly British position ha worsened a lot since ca. 1900, courtesy of the Imperials, but is there any country that has risen to Great Power status since? China I suppose (you already stated India hasn't gone that far... yet)? And how much power differential is there among the Big Six (or Seven)? Germany must still be primus inter pares I suppose, but how much does it outweigh, say, France in terms of GDP? Is it in the process of being surpassed by the US?

At this point, China and Japan are generally acknowledged to have joined the great power club, and everyone agrees that it's only a matter of time for India. Brazil, Ethiopia and South Africa are still regional powers, and the latter two are probably too small for great-power status, but they have aspirations.

Germany's GDP has probably been surpassed by the United States already, due to the latter's greater population if nothing else. France is fairly close to the top two if its integral African provinces and the Kingdom of the Arabs are considered, but substantially less so with only the metropole, which could make the final stages of decolonization politically tricky. The Ottomans have also risen into the front rank due to all that oil, and the others are second-tier but recovering (Britain and China) or improving (Russia and Japan).

I think power, ITTL, will be a lot less focused on military strength. Even today in OTL some countries seem to think military power is the only kind of power, ITTL, that's not the case and has become so alot earlier. Germany might be economically dominant, but the German people watch American cinema for instance.

I agree. However, "soft power" is quite a thing IOTL too.

With the world a more interconnected place, it's almost inevitable that soft power, especially in the cultural and economic spheres, will be a bigger deal. Of course, it goes multiple ways - Americans will watch German movies too.

That sounds like a good time for a new (world) map.

I'm planning to do a map of Africa in 1955 at the end of this cycle. I've asked someone if he'd be interested in doing a world map; if he isn't, I'll see if there are other volunteers.

Keep in mind, though, that wars aren't the only things that change borders, and the world of 1970 won't be the same as 1955.

Is there a good chance that the Chinese Empire becomes an elective monarchy? IMO that would be the best option for China.

China has no tradition of elective monarchy, but then again, it didn't have any tradition of republican government before it became a republic. It's fair to say that the postwar government will probably consider nearly everything.

Say, would there be an international move for a halal brand association that would police food and drink in the Islamic world?

Then again, with this TL's more diverse Islam I can only see such a thing only existing for a few years before collapsing in on itself.

Yeah, it's the same problem as trying to create a universal kashruth authority - there's no single authority who everyone trusts, and there's disagreement at the margins about what's kosher and what's not.

The most that's likely to happen is a regulation against fraudulent marketing: i.e., any food sold internationally as halal must (a) be certified by at least one religious authority, and (b) disclose which authority certified it. Something like that exists in a few American states today and would probably be acceptable to a majority of Muslims.

I don't think that branding will be so prominent ITTL, especially not branding based out of religious identity.

That's probably true, but people will still want to know that the halal food they're buying is really halal, and as the world becomes more integrated and more food is sold that isn't produced locally, there might at least be a call for protection from fraud.
 
That's probably true, but people will still want to know that the halal food they're buying is really halal, and as the world becomes more integrated and more food is sold that isn't produced locally, there might at least be a call for protection from fraud.

True. With a sort of legitimate Caliphate still existing IOTL, I can see the Ottoman and Persian governments trying to tackle the matter. I am not sure that it will be universally accepted, but it would likely be more unified than IOTL.
Kasherut is also an area where TTL's Ottoman Empire, or possibly the Salonikan authorities, might want to have a guaranteeing role.
 
Last edited:
For the issue of ruler of China, why not a symbolic one issued from the family of the Holy Duke of Yen, i.e. a descendant of Master Kung?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_Yansheng

And the real authority in the hands of the Prime Minister

You know, that would almost qualify as a caliphate - or, looked at from another angle, a shogunate. Granted, you'd have to look at it just the right way.

China may or may not do this, but I bet someone will at least propose it, and that it would get a serious hearing - maybe after a few years of failing to agree on an emperor but lacking consensus for a republic.
 
It seems like so much has happened...!! I don't know where to start, except to say that every time the focus shifts from one region to another, that region becomes my favorite ITTL - jet fighters with the chakra of Ashoka, I love South Africa - but Melisande and Islamic anarchism and Kenia/Tanganyika, I love East Africa - but but Transbaikal Orthodox partisans along the Amur, I love East Asia - but the Consistory, I love TTL! :eek:

For the issue of ruler of China, why not a symbolic one issued from the family of the Holy Duke of Yen, i.e. a descendant of Master Kung?

China may or may not do this, but I bet someone will at least propose it, and that it would get a serious hearing - maybe after a few years of failing to agree on an emperor but lacking consensus for a republic.

For what it's worth, I think this tickles my sensawunda in the same way as having the HoS in India be its High Judge, or the Ooni of Ife being the HoS of Oyo, or even the International Congo's status under the Court of Arbitration.

It would certainly be one way to portray a successful strategy to deal with the tension between Han and non-Han in Qing and post-Qing China - that Qing efforts at defusing, wikipedia says, lead to the earliest incarnations of the concept of a Zhonghua minzu. You could present it as a package deal, too - reach out to ethnic Chinese abroad, while creating an acceptable framework for closer integration between Han and non-Han at home. Although it might also encourage fears of Chinese irredentism abroad, at exactly the time China would be trying to show the world that it's moving on from that sort of thing...

And my goodness, proto-Republican China was full of fascinating people... and the Ma clique seems to have had more than its fair share! (A brief wiki trek for this post found me Ma Fuxiang, for example)
 
True - the turn-of-the-20th-century Great Powers do have permanent seats, but without a veto, their advantage is limited to their voice always being heard. Also, it's always possible to expand the court's membership or create new permanent seats - this hasn't yet been done, but it's been discussed.



At this point, China and Japan are generally acknowledged to have joined the great power club, and everyone agrees that it's only a matter of time for India. Brazil, Ethiopia and South Africa are still regional powers, and the latter two are probably too small for great-power status, but they have aspirations.

Germany's GDP has probably been surpassed by the United States already, due to the latter's greater population if nothing else. France is fairly close to the top two if its integral African provinces and the Kingdom of the Arabs are considered, but substantially less so with only the metropole, which could make the final stages of decolonization politically tricky. The Ottomans have also risen into the front rank due to all that oil, and the others are second-tier but recovering (Britain and China) or improving (Russia and Japan).

Oil can be a curse, or at least a mixed blessing. You have actually addressed that point already, but it is interesting to see an important Great Power controlling a large part of the world's oil supplies, something that only marginally happened IOTL (with the US). TTL is also better equipped to deal with the cursing aspects of oil extraction in order to minimize them, although I don't think they'd disappear. For instance, Japan is going to be VERY interested in the security of Nusantara.
The Ottoman-Indian relationships will also be very interesting ITTL in the next decades. India is re-industrializing at a rapid pace, and this means she will need a LOT of Ottoman or Persian oil.
I am not sure that Ethiopia and South Africa are too small to aspire to Great Power status. They are both pretty large, and they have both populations in the same order of magintude as Brazil or Metropolitan Britain at this point. (I would guess 25-30 million for Ethiopia, which is actually a little low for a real Power, and possibly a little more for South Africa, which has however, an incredible amount of resoures to compensate; the Ottoman Empire, for comparison, is probably in the 50-60 million range now, and likely to be increasing quickly- Metrpolitan France and Britain are probably about there too).
 
I've had a thought as I was rereading othyrsyde's guest post a ways back and considering the future Consistory's frankly amazing number of constituent entities.

It occurs to me that the idea of cultural minorities within a nation, such as the Roma or the Jewish diaspora as mentioned earlier, may be a definition applied much more broadly throughout the world as time goes on. In particular, in past discussions we've mentioned that America will have a sense of continuity with the 1800's in the sense that minority groups will have greater integrity of old country linguistic and cultural heritage even within the US framework. With 11,000 members, I'm wondering if it's not inconceivable that the diaspora of various nations ends up sending one or more representatives to the Consistory as cultural interest representatives. These representatives might defer to the State's representatives for most times, or they may be in a more terse relationship, but it would certainly put a very different spin on how cultural matters, domestic and international, are handled. For some odd reason, I'm imagining a "German diaspora" representative from the US alongside representatives of African American, Native American, and so on.

It seems pretty out there, but, again, 11 freaking thousand.
 
I doubt it.
It would be likely to be seen as a "Capitalist" scheme (as such things mostly are IOTL) are rejected by a large enough fraction of TTL's Muslims accordingly.
I don't think that branding will be so prominent ITTL, especially not branding based out of religious identity.

That seems doubtful to me; branding is an effective way to convince people to use you and not your competitor. Unless having multiple entities to choose from isn't a thing here (it is), branding is pretty much inevitably going to show up. Most of the "anti-capitalist" things people have discussed here seem to me to be more "anti-internationalization" things, a subtle but important difference; I would expect the result to be more national and regional brands, not fewer brands (indeed, more brands overall, since there would probably be fewer mega-brands like Coca-Cola and McDonalds). Indeed, the principle difference between the real world and the Male Rising world, so far as economics goes, seems to me to be the much higher development level of most of the world compared to OTL. With brands, that means those regions will be able to develop their own strong brands before international brands like the ones I mentioned above can coalesce and form. With environmental and labor regulations, that means that people in those countries will be better informed and have more leisure and ability to protest and demand better working conditions (an example being the fact that the Sokoto area has been industrialized almost as long as the United States or Germany, and hence has similar notions of labor protections). It doesn't really have anything to do with international institutions or some notional tendency towards collectivism.

In any case, I doubt having some type of anti-fraud measures against fake halal foods being sold (ie., some type of halal certification scheme) is going to be particularly controversial, except perhaps among some really hardline "withdraw from the state" types. But they're probably not going to have a lot of traction, especially if there are any incidents of that sort of fraud being perpetrated (whether on purpose or through mere negligence).
 
I've had a thought as I was rereading othyrsyde's guest post a ways back and considering the future Consistory's frankly amazing number of constituent entities.

It occurs to me that the idea of cultural minorities within a nation, such as the Roma or the Jewish diaspora as mentioned earlier, may be a definition applied much more broadly throughout the world as time goes on. In particular, in past discussions we've mentioned that America will have a sense of continuity with the 1800's in the sense that minority groups will have greater integrity of old country linguistic and cultural heritage even within the US framework. With 11,000 members, I'm wondering if it's not inconceivable that the diaspora of various nations ends up sending one or more representatives to the Consistory as cultural interest representatives. These representatives might defer to the State's representatives for most times, or they may be in a more terse relationship, but it would certainly put a very different spin on how cultural matters, domestic and international, are handled. For some odd reason, I'm imagining a "German diaspora" representative from the US alongside representatives of African American, Native American, and so on.

It seems pretty out there, but, again, 11 freaking thousand.

I can easily see Native Nations having representation (more probably as separate entities, not a single Native representative). For diaspora communities, it is more complicated; regionally strong communities may get representation, but institutionalizing the "American Germans" as an internationally recognized entity as such would be such a gigantic headache that nobody would probably want it if politically possible.
I think that any such entity should probably have a fairly marked territiorial connotation to be viable in most cases. However, I agree that 11 thousand is a lot. To be fair, some my guesses on the future of Italy ITTL might lead that peninsula alone to yield some about 200, if not more, members, but this is extremely tentative and Jonathan's plans may be very different.
 
Top