Malê Rising

I don't want to see any more of Wilson, thank you very much.

Yes, I have to agree, this one's just sad. And I can't pick out just how, in any way, he differs from the OTL one either.:eek: It's more a commentary on the faded nature of the OTL US republic than on our Wilson's superiority (which I can't discern, remember!) that in OTL 1912 I'd probably support him, unless I thought the Socialists could actually win.

I'd have thought ITTL Wilson might have had a political moment during the Mesoamerican war, but I guess it would have been too much of a gear shift for him to dislodge himself from his tenured academic position in time to get on the bandwagon as a politician. Rather I daresay he'd have been an academic cheerleader of the interventionists, and it is the failure of that intervention that motivates his cries for international Aryan solidarity now.

I'd say I expected Wilson to muster more powerful prose, but actually I'm pretty hard pressed to think of any ringing phrases he managed to produce OTL.

I forget in what James Branch Cabell book it was that a character--I think it was Jurgen in the book of that name, but it might have been Dom Manuel in Figures of Earth, encounters a bunch of birds saying phrases and among them is an Eagle, which another bird accuses of simply stealing their phrase only more pompously. When it becomes evident the bird's charge is justified, the Eagle goes off to the side and tries to come up with now phrases, but none of them work, as the Eagle realizes as it tries them out one by one. From the lame slogans it comes up the Eagle is evidently Wilson.:rolleyes:

If we want to or have to credit Wilson OTL with being above the average of the USA's more mediocre Presidents, it has to be for his willingness to push through elements of the Progressive agenda, and that was manifestly not his own handiwork, and the way I characterize OTL "Progressivism" as an elite prophylactic against real Populism that guarantees elite strings attached to measures that alleviate pain in the populace but leave the root causes of their grievances unconquered--checked to an extent but not ended is pretty much thought out with Wilson's brand of Progressivism in mind. A lot of what did pass in his administrations was so watered down in practice that it almost might not have been done at all--and the meaning of that became clear when, under FDR amidst the Great Depression the New Deal gave substance to the ghost.

By far the most sympathetic portrayal of Wilson I've ever seen is in novels by Gore Vidal, which attribute a sense of humor and fun he kept well hidden from the general public, if I am to believe Vidal.
 

Sulemain

Banned
Ahh, Teddy kicked arse and took names! Awesome!

And out of intellectual curiosity, what was the ethnic composition of that audience? All white, or did some some minorities get to hear Wilson insult them?
 
Hmm, I'm not sure a completely apolitical role like that of the Japanese empire (who has no involvement at all in governance) would be the mostly likely outcome - after the Imperials fall, the Tories will still exist, and might support a less political but still strong institutional role for the monarch, although maybe not King Albert himself. Maybe people would look at a strong executive as a defence against a future Rutherford - what is the heir to the throne like? Or one of Albert's siblings?

Maybe look to the example of the Spanish monarch's role after the Transition to Democracy in Spain - he is involved in politics but all laws he signs are also signed by the relative minister, and it is that minister who is responsible for the contents of that law.

If Albert can be persuaded (read that word as you like) to abdicate, there are certainly acceptable alternatives. The heir to the throne is a minor and still malleable, so a regency might be arranged, and if that's unfeasible for some reason, some of Albert's siblings disagree with him and not all of those are married to foreign monarchs.

There will certainly still be Tories, and even some who aren't Tories will have a sentimental attachment to the monarchy or will want to preserve it as a symbol of national unity. But there will also be those who want to get rid of the monarchy entirely due to Albert's support of the Imperials, and the anti-monarchist faction will probably be bigger than at any time in modern OTL history. The monarch's postwar role will have to be a compromise between the two - if not an apolitical monarchy, than certainly one with a reduced political role and carefully circumscribed emergency powers. We'll see how the debate plays out during the 1920s.

I'd expect the unwritten rules that keep the British monarch to be enforced more strongly - perhaps a written constitution for Britain and the Empire, a way to break with the Rutherford quasi-dictatorship?

I rather think that given the experience with Rutherford, who upended so much of the established order, there will be calls across the political spectrum to codify the "unwritten constitution" of Britain.

Normally I'd totally disagree, citing the idea that our unwritten constitution relies on the honour of those involved, and thus makes it harder to subvert then a written one. But recent events in OTL and TTL have made me reconsider.

Unfortunately, honour is a relative notion. And history is, to be honest, pretty unforgiving to polities that trusted the "honour" or their politicians. This, by the way, emphatically includes direct democracies.

A political system that depends on honor will eventually run into a dishonorable person who the collective can't or won't control - and even for the honorable, "there's no rule against it" can be a very seductive idea in a time of crisis. A written constitution at least ensures that everyone knows the boundaries and that they can be judicially enforced, although it too depends somewhat on the honor of those charged with enforcing it.

I do think an experience with near-dictatorship would make many people want to codify the constitution so that there is less abuse of the unwritten rules. Whether everyone can agree on how to do so is another story.

That was enjoyable. It's nice to see Roosevelt be actually not racist for once.

Is it too much too ask to see Wilson's reaction when the Indians finally win their Republic? :p

TTL's Roosevelt has had a different life from OTL, including earlier travel in Africa and a close wartime partnership with one Harriet Tubman.

And while Wilson will no doubt be displeased at India winning the war, he'll have seen it coming for some time, so I doubt there would be (in teg's words) a Sovereign-level villainous breakdown.

Yes, I have to agree, this one's just sad. And I can't pick out just how, in any way, he differs from the OTL one either.:eek:

His racial views are a bit more extreme than OTL (although his OTL views were racist even by the standards of the time). My working assumption is that the South Carolina gave added impetus to the "fecund dusky hordes" strain of racism, and that Wilson, whose family was either in or near South Carolina during the war, absorbed it during childhood. For him, the Indian revolution is South Carolina all over again, the natural subjects overwhelming their betters through sheer numbers.

I'd have thought ITTL Wilson might have had a political moment during the Mesoamerican war, but I guess it would have been too much of a gear shift for him to dislodge himself from his tenured academic position in time to get on the bandwagon as a politician.

He's a senator at the time of his debate with TR; he may have come to that position during the run-up to that war. He'd have been an interventionist, either from academia or from Congress.

I'd say I expected Wilson to muster more powerful prose, but actually I'm pretty hard pressed to think of any ringing phrases he managed to produce OTL.

Well, he's a long-time professor at what he thought would be an academic debate. TR ambushed him by treating it as a stump speech, but TTL's Roosevelt has even less regard for the rules than OTL's.

If we want to or have to credit Wilson OTL with being above the average of the USA's more mediocre Presidents, it has to be for his willingness to push through elements of the Progressive agenda [...] A lot of what did pass in his administrations was so watered down in practice that it almost might not have been done at all--and the meaning of that became clear when, under FDR amidst the Great Depression the New Deal gave substance to the ghost.

If I had to describe his politics in one word, it would be "messianic." He was a son and grandson of theologians, and he had a vision of peace at home and abroad: a league of nations, self-determination of peoples, the Fourteen Points. Like many messianists, his reach exceeded his grasp: what he gave us was a segregated Federal workforce, Over There, and one of the most severe periods of domestic repression the United States has ever seen. (And the Federal Reserve. I'll give him that.)

I consider him a tragic figure in some ways, and I feel a little guilty for making him TR's strawman - but he was strongly racist, and something like the Indian war would bring out the very worst in him.

And out of intellectual curiosity, what was the ethnic composition of that audience? All white, or did some some minorities get to hear Wilson insult them?

It was a Washington audience running heavily to members of the political class, so it was mostly white but had some minorities.

Anyway, thanks to everyone who appreciated the update. I'll fill in the Mughal blanks next, and after that it will be time to wrap up the Indian war and the Imperial Party with it.
 
TTL's Roosevelt has had a different life from OTL, including earlier travel in Africa and a close wartime partnership with one Harriet Tubman.
Oh, yes, it's very well-constructed. I didn't mean to lump you into those who pretend Roosevelt wasn't terribly racist IOTL, while condemning Wilson (who was still worse, but come on). I had been wondering how an economically great power but still isolationist USA would look at India since the Revolution :)D) broke out, so that debate between the two was a real treat. I picked a good time to catch up. Now, time for the Mughals!

As for King Albert, the monarchy best hope it goes the way of Japan, and not Italy. Because there's definitely room for both here.
 
As for King Albert, the monarchy best hope it goes the way of Japan, and not Italy. Because there's definitely room for both here.

Compared to the fate of the Russian Royal Family in OTL (massacred), or ITTL (perhaps the most humiliating exile in history) or the German Royal Family (forced to abdicate and then sent into humiliating exile) going the way of the Italian Royal Family would be a pretty nice for Britain ITTL. Although I would like to see the monarchy survive in some form, if only to spite the Imperials some more. I had a really good scene in my head for one timeline I wanted to do that would be very work ITTL, depending on the character of King Albert. It is the end of the Second World War and Italy is fighting against the combined might of the United States, France and the Commonwealth but Mussolini refuses to surrender. In an attempt to prevent Italy being crushed, King Victor Emmanuel draws a pistol and shoots Mussolini in the head. This done, he promptly declares "The King dies but Italy endures" and shoots himself.*

*My apologies if this seems a bit too similar to Franz Joseph's fate ITTL. :eek:

Great update BTW. :)

teg
 

Sulemain

Banned
Speaking of which, is there a Federal Reserve ITTL? If so, please call it the 3rd Bank of the United States. A central bank is a useful thing to have.
 
I'm actually curious as to see TTL's take on a Republican Britain... it would be interesting to see how the Dominions would deal with it.
 
And then we get the scene where Teddy dies of Congo Fever.

Too dark?

I don't think AIDS ITTL has really spread outside of Africa much and given everyone is aware of it and that it's transmitted sexually I think everyone is probably being more careful, plus I thought alt. TR was in a relationship, not just fucking every cute guy he can woo.
 
And then we get the scene where Teddy dies of Congo Fever.

Too dark?

Hell, he's already near the end of his life, if he dies comparably young like is ATL sibling. So even though 60 (even then) seemed a tragically young age for a wealthy man to die, compared to OTL it will seem a pretty even trade.
 
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I don't think AIDS ITTL has really spread outside of Africa much and given everyone is aware of it and that it's transmitted sexually I think everyone is probably being more careful, plus I thought alt. TR was in a relationship, not just fucking every cute guy he can woo.

Yeah. His appearances tend to make a point of his relationship.
 
Speaking of which, is there a Federal Reserve ITTL? If so, please call it the 3rd Bank of the United States. A central bank is a useful thing to have.

Central banking was an item on the progressive agenda, so I assume that one of the Progressive-Republican or Progressive-Populist coalitions would have instituted it. I'm not sure they would have called it the Third Bank of the United States given how short-lived the first two were, but maybe they'd think the third time was the charm.

And then we get the scene where Teddy dies of Congo Fever.

Or where his paramour does, or where he watches it happen to a close friend. If he caught the fever himself, he might be at the age where other things would kill him before it has a chance to do so.

I don't think AIDS ITTL has really spread outside of Africa much and given everyone is aware of it and that it's transmitted sexually I think everyone is probably being more careful

It has spread to Europe via the soldiers who were in the Congo during the Great War - it's actually more common in Europe than in West Africa where the soldiers stayed local rather than fighting in the Congo theater. And there was a window of time between the outbreak and the late 1900s when it wasn't yet known - I believe I mentioned that it was identified as a distinct syndrome in 1908.

Given that the United States stayed out of the war, there are very few cases there, but that also means less awareness. TR or his partner could potentially have caught it during the 1900s if either of them cheated during a trip abroad, although the odds are against it.

Update possibly this evening, more likely tomorrow - I'm a bit backed up today dealing with my 15 minutes of fame after an actual innocence case got decided on appeal.
 
Speaking of which, is there a Federal Reserve ITTL? If so, please call it the 3rd Bank of the United States. A central bank is a useful thing to have.
The Federal Reserve isn't a public bank of the United States, so why would it be called the Third Bank?
 
Central banking was an item on the progressive agenda, so I assume that one of the Progressive-Republican or Progressive-Populist coalitions would have instituted it. I'm not sure they would have called it the Third Bank of the United States given how short-lived the first two were, but maybe they'd think the third time was the charm.



Or where his paramour does, or where he watches it happen to a close friend. If he caught the fever himself, he might be at the age where other things would kill him before it has a chance to do so.



It has spread to Europe via the soldiers who were in the Congo during the Great War - it's actually more common in Europe than in West Africa where the soldiers stayed local rather than fighting in the Congo theater. And there was a window of time between the outbreak and the late 1900s when it wasn't yet known - I believe I mentioned that it was identified as a distinct syndrome in 1908.

Given that the United States stayed out of the war, there are very few cases there, but that also means less awareness. TR or his partner could potentially have caught it during the 1900s if either of them cheated during a trip abroad, although the odds are against it.

Update possibly this evening, more likely tomorrow - I'm a bit backed up today dealing with my 15 minutes of fame after an actual innocence case got decided on appeal.

That's awesome! Congratulations and good luck!!
 
....I'm a bit backed up today dealing with my 15 minutes of fame after an actual innocence case got decided on appeal.

Take your time--as much as I enjoy this timeline, this seems a bit more important. :D

Indeed! Jonathan, you are a man of talent, wit--and I can see by your choices of what sort of law to practice, integrity and honor as well. Your persona as author has always awed me and now I see it merely reflects real-world work quite worthy of the positive spirit of your timelines. Quite obviously stuff of this sort of vital importance to the real world must take top priority; it is the wellspring of the fine fiction after all!

We've been quite spoiled here; not only do you write well and intelligently but you keep up a sustained pace that puts many of my other favorite talents here deep in the shade. I'd hate to see this go on a long hiatus but still more would I hate, like your client, to serve an undeserved prison sentence for huge part of my life.

One of the keystones of the conservative judicial "reform" movement of my lifetime has been to "streamline" the process by restricting appeals and clinging like barnacles to merely procedural grounds to deny inquiries into glaring errors of fact. I appreciate that these are deep waters, and that procedure must be adhered to or the law falls apart into a mess of cronyism. But it always seemed to me plain that the idea that the justice process should be viewed in the end, not as a mere procedural automaton but a method of arriving at truth and balancing rights and interests in the light of facts.

The news article says that this is the first time ever in its history that the State of New York has allowed the question of actual guilt or innocence alone to require a second look at a case; I presume all previous appeals had to rest on proving some technical flaw in the original trial process. That just stuns me (and means I am wrong to snark just at the right-wing "reform" movement that has dominated jurisprudence in my lifetime--but the Federalist Club type jurists want to expand on the wrongheadedness this recent ruling you fought for has at last dissented from, so I don't think I was out of line there, exactly--merely understating the problem!)

Well, so speaks the legal ignoramus.:eek: I hope I'm making some sense.

Fight this good fight, Jonathan! I like to think your work here is a help, but don't hesitate to put it on the back shelf for a while if it makes a difference--thank God someone in this world is working competently for a rational legal system!

Bless you.
 
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