Malê Rising

Well, I can't say that I didn't expect this, but I do hope that the postwar empire shall be another break for the Westphalia system, as already seen by Russia and Alsace-Lorraine.

On another note, when will the Ottoman cinema start making big budget historical dramas? I could see a lot of people clamoring for top-Lira tickets for 'Sultan Suleiman's conquest of Europe', as well as a lot of controversy for it. :rolleyes:
 
Well, I can't say that I didn't expect this, but I do hope that the postwar empire shall be another break for the Westphalia system, as already seen by Russia and Alsace-Lorraine.

On another note, when will the Ottoman cinema start making big budget historical dramas? I could see a lot of people clamoring for top-Lira tickets for 'Sultan Suleiman's conquest of Europe', as well as a lot of controversy for it. :rolleyes:

Ooh! Actually, yeah! Is the 'great Ottoman epic' a real thing? I feel as if Ottoman cinema might just get under the idea of a real epic on screen.
 
I don't think it's particularly likely to have Vietnamese emigration to the Antilles but the reunion seems much more plausible

It's not that unlikely, IOTL Martinique and Guadeloupe saw immigration of Asians, and even with the larger growth of the African and Mulatto majority Indians make-up 4% of Martiniques population today while Guadeloupe is about 5% Indian and Chinese, and that's with migration from those areas not being official or helped and with no strong desire to move.

Additionally, while different, near-by French Guiana IOTL is 13% Asian (11.5% if we discount the Hmong who moved their in recent times because of OTL events that won't happen ITTL).
 
Defne Bereket, The Ottoman Cinema (Stamboul: Tulip Press, 1993)

… The Ottoman Empire’s first experimental movies were shot as early as the war, but the true beginning of Ottoman film was the opening of the Davetoglu studio in 1901. Davetoglu was a visionary director with a ruthless marketing genius and a flair for assembling talent, and his movies, titled in Turkish and Arabic, transformed cinema from an elite curiosity to mass entertainment. By 1910, there were eleven studios in Stamboul and more than a hundred theaters, and the Ottoman capital was counted among the world’s dozen cinema hubs. [1]

OTL, the two world wars were devastating to the film industries of Europe and east Asia, and a hell of a lot of talent fled to the USA, cementing Hollywood's global dominance. One wonders, since cinema is largely a post-war thing and we will avoid any new major wars for quite some time, whether this world's cinema industry will remain more multipolar.



Few made the point as succinctly as London, but it was one that visitors picked up on within hours of arrival: that in the Free City of Salonika, “the Jewish people” was at best a term of art. There were Jews and Jews, and most considered their neighbors to be part of the second group.


Salonika in 1900, counting the suburbs and rural areas that were part of the international zone, had more than half a million people, ten times as many as had lived there before the War of the Balkan Alliance. The prewar Sephardic and Romaniote communities still made up most of the elite, but they had become a demographic minority. Now they shared their space with refugees from the Pale of Settlement, the Caucasus and Central Asia, with growing communities of Persian and Yemeni immigrants, with businessmen from western Europe and the Americas, and even with a few Ethiopian Jews who had set up shop in the wake of the war.

Hmm - Salonika as an independent or semi-independent city-state? A post-Westphalian world needs more city states...:)

The Sultan ordered the loyal army units to move on Haifa, hoping to decapitate the opposition with one stroke. The provisional parliament fortified the city and prepared to resist. But the conflict would end, not with a climactic battle, but with the Ottoman Revolution…
______

Oh, this will be interesting.
 
I’ll take things in the following order: Church matters, then the Ottoman Empire, then Salonika.

So where is the new Pope going to live? It seems clear he can't go back to Rome, is the Curia going to be setting up shop more or less permanently in Rio after the Conclave?

As Jord839 said, it will be Rio for the time being, not out of any commitment to the New World but because (a) that’s where the successful Conclave happened; and (b) Rio is one place where the Curia can be fairly sure it won’t be forced to leave. The long-term goal is a return to Rome, but that will have to await political developments in the twentieth century.

That's certainly surprising, and he'll definitely fit the mold for a pastoral Pope that will nonetheless rock the boat. I like this direction. I'm assuming his conservative dogma makes him unsympathetic to Muslims in the colonies though?

He won’t be very sympathetic to them, but as we’ve seen, they’re quite capable of speaking for themselves.

Between him, typical colonial interests, native unrest, and a larger Portuguese migration to those areas, things will be rife for conflict in Portuguese Africa. Whether it'll be sad and horrible or a great step towards a equal society still remains to be seen.

It could, of course, be both.

And now we have an Ottoman Revolution led by Trotsky. Didn't see that coming.

It won’t be all Trotsky’s show by any means. You may have heard the saying about a revolution being what happens when the army switches sides – in this case, the army will do what it feels it has to do to prevent the country from breaking up.

Damn I hope the empire doesn't balkanize...

Hmm… the fact that it's referred to as an Ottoman revolution suggests some sort of continuity with the old state

The term "Ottoman Revolution" implies that Anatolia and Arabia will still be ruled by a Sultan after the civil war, but in order to maintain his power, the Sultan will have to bend to the will of the rebels: real democracy, and a dual Arab-Turkish monarchy. I'm not sure if the Balkans will remain Ottoman after the Revolution, though

The state that exists after the revolution will still be the Ottoman Empire – it may have to shed a few loosely-held territories and give the frontier provinces more autonomy, but it isn’t going to break apart like Austria-Hungary did. The Balkans and especially Bulgaria will be tricky, because they have a strong desire to leave while the Ottomans can’t afford to let them go, but since they’ve lost the last two wars and have no effective outside patron, they’ll probably settle for some kind of enhanced autonomy. We’ll see how things develop in the 1910s, though.

I really do wonder what the Ottoman revolution is actually going to change in the Empire. Indeed, I wonder how much of the Ottoman army has actually stayed loyal to the Sultan as well. Still, it sounds as if he'll eventually be overthrown by those once loyal to him, so maybe the numbers don't matter.

Most of the opposition remains loyal to the idea of a Sultan – the empire would have no raison d’etre without the Sultan as religious overlord – but not necessarily to this Sultan. And while there’s still some residual loyalty for Abdul Hamid among the Anatolian peasantry, the bad economy and political dysfunction means that most of them won’t shed many tears to see him go. Abdul Hamid was deposed by a revolution in OTL, and the same thing will happen in TTL – as Senator Chickpea says, there will be a more pliable Sultan installed in his place, while the actual government (for the time being) will be a coalition of the army, the opposition parties and provincial notables.

I assume the Ottoman Empire is going to end up as another post-Westphalian conglomeration after this revolution.

Hmm... United Sultanate of Sanjak-Republics?

I know you said that in jest, but it’s actually not a bad description of how some of the empire will work after the revolution (the administrative subdivisions will have several different forms of government). Parts of the empire will be post-Westphalian eventually, but not all of it and not immediately.

Now an Ottoman revolution… could really go both ways : a relatively quick and clean coup or a much messier civil war with ethnic tensions in the Balkans, socialist workers trying to instore a revolutionary regime and maybe the odd Arabic prince (Rachidi, Saudi, ect) establishing an independent Arabia and Hejaz.

It will be somewhere in between. On the one hand, the revolutionaries aren’t just a random group of people taking over – they actually held an election, which counts for something in terms of legitimacy. They’ll be accepted as the legal government by most of the population very quickly, and people will be willing to give their reforms a chance to work. On the other hand, there will be centrifugal pressures on the fringes of the state, especially in Arabia and Yemen, and with so many diverse factions making up the new government, there might be trouble from the dissenters. The shakeout will take a while and will have complications.

On another note, when will the Ottoman cinema start making big budget historical dramas? I could see a lot of people clamoring for top-Lira tickets for 'Sultan Suleiman's conquest of Europe', as well as a lot of controversy for it.

Ooh! Actually, yeah! Is the 'great Ottoman epic' a real thing? I feel as if Ottoman cinema might just get under the idea of a real epic on screen.

They’ll probably reach the point of big-budget feature films in the late 1910s or early 20s, and that kind of epic would definitely be up their alley. Someone’s bound to do a Suleiman movie sooner or later.

OTL, the two world wars were devastating to the film industries of Europe and east Asia, and a hell of a lot of talent fled to the USA, cementing Hollywood's global dominance. One wonders, since cinema is largely a post-war thing and we will avoid any new major wars for quite some time, whether this world's cinema industry will remain more multipolar.

The list of cities in the footnote might answer that question. TTL's film industry won't be nearly as American-dominated; instead, there will be a variety of regional hubs.

Also, how much of the surrounding hinterland of Salonika is Jewish? Is it still mostly Greek/Turkish or have Jews moved into rural areas too?

The city itself has been built outward somewhat to house the new arrivals. Some Jews also live in the countryside, but non-Jews are still the majority outside the city. They have their own village and district councils, so they don’t have to get involved in the Jews’ squabbles unless they want to (which they sometimes do, for political or commercial advantage).

Salonika itself... it seems like a really interesting (if probably a bit overcrowded) city. The cultural, Bahà'ì-influenced Jewish nationalism of this timeline will surely help solve some of the ethnic and religious conflicts that are plaguing the city.

If you don’t mind apartment living, it can be an exciting place – it’s a cosmopolitan city, a center of business and the scene of a good deal of intrigue, in addition to being a cultural blender. The Baha’i/Reconstructionist-influenced nationalism will help to solve some conflicts, but it might also create others, given that much of the religious establishment considers the Reconstructionists heretical.

About Salonika, I would think it's far from being the only center of Judaism, as there were already quite a few Jews in Palestine : those ones would like to reclaim the holy land, wouldn't they? Is there any movement to make an Israel in an other place (EDT fight and be right had it in Kimberley, that was fun).

Yes, there’s a quasi-Zionist movement – Herzl’s ATL-brother is now living on the north side of Lake Victoria, but proto-Zionists like Hess did exist and have influenced the Jews in Palestine. Right now, the *Zionists are hoping to piggyback on the Arab autonomist movement and get some kind of communal self-rule. Only a few radicals are demanding independence, and they won’t get it, but *Zionism will continue as a rival to the cultural nationalism of Salonika.

There will be a few schemes to set up Jewish states elsewhere, but most of that energy will be sucked up by Salonika, which has the benefit of actually existing. Why go to the trouble of setting up a Jewish state in Africa or the Pacific when there’s already one in a historically Jewish city? There will be scattered groups of settlers like the Hungarian Jews in Buganda, but they’ll be citizens of that kingdom rather than having their own state.

Hmm - Salonika as an independent or semi-independent city-state? A post-Westphalian world needs more city states...:)

The Free City of Salonika was part of the aftermath of TTL's Russo-Turkish war - it's technically under international administration, but de facto self-governing. Nobody was sure if it would last, but it did.

A random thought : is there a canal across central America and have Americans done anything in the region?

A canal is currently being built across Nicaragua (the political conditions weren’t right for Panama in TTL) and is scheduled for completion in 1915. It’s owned by an international consortium that includes the United States, Brazil, Japan and several European powers.

BTW, I was planning to include Russia in this update, but it didn’t really fit with the rest of the subject matter. So there will be a (relatively) short Russian update soon, possibly tomorrow; then a last narrative to close out the 1900s; then on to the Decade of Revolutions.
 
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The list of cities in the footnote might answer that question. TTL's film industry won't be nearly as American-dominated; instead, there will be a variety of regional hubs.
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Yeah, but the US industry still starts with an extremely strong position in market size, technical development, and a wealth of possible wealth-y investors: some of the 1911 hubs will end up of strictly regional importance. I'd expect the TL will be less American-dominated, but how much so is still a bit of an open question.

Bruce
 
I would have thought there would be a London regional hub, as I don't see how their couldn't be outside of a concerted censorship campaign or break down in civil order.

The theatre, science and financial hubs there already would make it near impossible not to get something
 
Yeah, but the US industry still starts with an extremely strong position in market size, technical development, and a wealth of possible wealth-y investors: some of the 1911 hubs will end up of strictly regional importance.

True. I'd expect that once talkies come in, the hubs will break down by language (with silents, it isn't that hard to swap out the titles for translated ones), which might eclipse cities like Trivandrum for a while. The number of films produced in some of the cities, and their distribution, will be limited by available capital, and some of them might also go for the old-Bollywood niche of high volume but strictly local interest. American films will be well known throughout the world and will be highly influential, albeit not as dominant as in OTL.

BTW, speaking of American influence, is English likely to become the main international language in TTL? The main reasons that happened in OTL were the size of the British Empire and the prestige of the United States; the first is certainly still there, but there might be less of the second with a more isolationist US.

I would have thought there would be a London regional hub, as I don't see how their couldn't be outside of a concerted censorship campaign or break down in civil order.

The theatre, science and financial hubs there already would make it near impossible not to get something

I'd thought of London, but the problems are (a) lack of sunshine, and (b) that it's mainly a banking, finance and government city rather than an artistic one. Weather's a problem in Paris and Berlin too, but even they get a few hundred more hours' sun a year than London does, and they're historically more avant-garde-friendly.

I think there will be a British film industry eventually, but it will be slower getting started than some of the others.

IOTL at this point, Denmark was a major center of film production. I guess it's not going to be the case here?

Wow, I had no idea. Was there anything in particular about Denmark that made it so friendly to the early film industry? If there is, then I guess Copenhagen would be added to the list. If not, would there be a chance for Stockholm?

Random change albeit also Scandinavia related: what happens to the Danish West Indies in TTL? In OTL, they were a money sink that Denmark kept trying to sell to the United States, but the sale fell through on a few occasions before taking place in 1917. The reason the United States agreed to buy in OTL was, in part, because it feared that the islands might come under German influence during World War I, but in TTL, that's not a factor. Would the US still buy in order to get a Caribbean naval base, would there be another buyer, or would it end up as a white elephant that Denmark doesn't want but can't get rid of? If the last, would Denmark actually invite West African investment? The DWI will be part of the Afro-Atlantic network, and I'd like for there to eventually be Afro-Danes, but I don't know enough about Danish politics of the time to guess how things would play out.
 
Okay, I didn't even know there was a Danish West Indies!

Seeing from a map, I guess the islands could be used by African traders as a hub accessing the Guianas and Spanish Puerto Rico, but other than that I got nothing.

EDIT: From Iori's comments below, the British might buy the Bahamas from the Danish to booster government popularity, which might be useful given the whole House of Lords incident and all.
 
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Random change albeit also Scandinavia related: what happens to the Danish West Indies in TTL? In OTL, they were a money sink that Denmark kept trying to sell to the United States, but the sale fell through on a few occasions before taking place in 1917. The reason the United States agreed to buy in OTL was, in part, because it feared that the islands might come under German influence during World War I, but in TTL, that's not a factor. Would the US still buy in order to get a Caribbean naval base, would there be another buyer, or would it end up as a white elephant that Denmark doesn't want but can't get rid of? If the last, would Denmark actually invite West African investment? The DWI will be part of the Afro-Atlantic network, and I'd like for there to eventually be Afro-Danes, but I don't know enough about Danish politics of the time to guess how things would play out.

If Denmark is continually adamant about getting rid of it and keep approaching the U.S. then it's very likely it'll become part of the United States as IOTL, however if they're less concerned and/or willing to invest in it for some reason (maybe trying to get in on the Afro-Atlantic trade?) then it's likely to remain Danish.

Another thing, the British might have an interest in it, afterall they control the other half of the archipelago, and based on how the war ended I could see a gaining of territory for little (relatively speaking) cost as being politically popular.
 
True. I'd expect that once talkies come in, the hubs will break down by language (with silents, it isn't that hard to swap out the titles for translated ones), which might eclipse cities like Trivandrum for a while. The number of films produced in some of the cities, and their distribution, will be limited by available capital, and some of them might also go for the old-Bollywood niche of high volume but strictly local interest. American films will be well known throughout the world and will be highly influential, albeit not as dominant as in OTL.

BTW, speaking of American influence, is English likely to become the main international language in TTL? The main reasons that happened in OTL were the size of the British Empire and the prestige of the United States; the first is certainly still there, but there might be less of the second with a more isolationist US.



I'd thought of London, but the problems are (a) lack of sunshine, and (b) that it's mainly a banking, finance and government city rather than an artistic one. Weather's a problem in Paris and Berlin too, but even they get a few hundred more hours' sun a year than London does, and they're historically more avant-garde-friendly.

I think there will be a British film industry eventually, but it will be slower getting started than some of the others.



Wow, I had no idea. Was there anything in particular about Denmark that made it so friendly to the early film industry? If there is, then I guess Copenhagen would be added to the list. If not, would there be a chance for Stockholm?

Random change albeit also Scandinavia related: what happens to the Danish West Indies in TTL? In OTL, they were a money sink that Denmark kept trying to sell to the United States, but the sale fell through on a few occasions before taking place in 1917. The reason the United States agreed to buy in OTL was, in part, because it feared that the islands might come under German influence during World War I, but in TTL, that's not a factor. Would the US still buy in order to get a Caribbean naval base, would there be another buyer, or would it end up as a white elephant that Denmark doesn't want but can't get rid of? If the last, would Denmark actually invite West African investment? The DWI will be part of the Afro-Atlantic network, and I'd like for there to eventually be Afro-Danes, but I don't know enough about Danish politics of the time to guess how things would play out.

Well you could always give the UK the same treatment as say the US and place the industry in a different location. Say the Isle of Wight?

Am I reading correctly that you think without a certain amount of sunlight hours the industry cannot form at this point for technical reasons? If so, fair enough. If not,
 
Well you could always give the UK the same treatment as say the US and place the industry in a different location. Say the Isle of Wight?

Or Cornwall. Actually, a Cornish film industry is sufficiently Rule of Cool-compliant that unless someone can tell me why it wouldn't happen, I'll assume that it did. Bonus points if anyone can come up with a plausible reason for all or part of it to be on Scilly (although that would seem logistically improbable).
 
Or Cornwall. Actually, a Cornish film industry is sufficiently Rule of Cool-compliant that unless someone can tell me why it wouldn't happen, I'll assume that it did. Bonus points if anyone can come up with a plausible reason for all or part of it to be on Scilly (although that would seem logistically improbable).

Well for Sicily lets think, a whole bunch of liberal artistic types will have been forces to flee by the papal legion, assuming a significant proportion (among them Italian film pioneers) set up shop in Palermo you could easily end up with large parts of the film industry working out of Palermo, although that may just split italy into a nation with two early film hubs (Palermo and Milan\some other northern city seem the two most likely in this case)
 
Or Cornwall. Actually, a Cornish film industry is sufficiently Rule of Cool-compliant that unless someone can tell me why it wouldn't happen, I'll assume that it did. Bonus points if anyone can come up with a plausible reason for all or part of it to be on Scilly (although that would seem logistically improbable).

Apparently most English early movies were about Shakespeare or Dickens stories which for it to be in London is more a plus than an interance. Moreover if Cornwall is remotely like Brittany, it's going to be seen as very backwards and difficult to reach, not something you want for a new art trying to reach urban audiences. So your safest bet would be London as it was the artistic center of the UK (however, it's likely they would come under heavy pressure from the US film industry which has a bigger home market).

Regarding the world language, this world will be way more multipolar than our own : obviously Arabic comes to mind in the Muslim world, but German will be at least the language of science in Europe and Chinese is a wildcard but could well be the language of the future in TTL present (imagine a world in which Chinese pop culture is at least as big as the Japanese one). However, English still has its amazing positioning, the UK empire is bigger than ever and the US cultural influence was great even before the world wars.
 
Well for Sicily lets think, a whole bunch of liberal artistic types will have been forces to flee by the papal legion, assuming a significant proportion (among them Italian film pioneers) set up shop in Palermo you could easily end up with large parts of the film industry working out of Palermo, although that may just split italy into a nation with two early film hubs (Palermo and Milan\some other northern city seem the two most likely in this case)

I like the idea of Sicily but JE meant Scilly
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isles_of_Scilly
 
I would have thought the strong theatre and finance industries would be enough. Money and talent looking to steal or borrow ideas from other countries.
 
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