Malê Rising

Question.

In terms of racial background, how are Jews viewed, specifically in the USA but also throughout the world? IOTL, they were not really considered fully "white" until the second half of the 20th century, when they started to be assimilated into mainstream society like other contemporaneous immigrant groups from Eastern and Southern Europe. ITTL though, Jews are less of a "European" race. Many more of them have immigrated to the Ottoman Empire and, I'm assuming, have assimilated into that society to a certain extent. Are Jews seen as more "Semitic"? If so, how is that affecting how people treat them?

Also, how is the relationship between Arabs and Jews going?

Finally, has Zionism as we know it been completely butterflied away? Is it more of a romantic-national movement concerned with settlement and cultural revival instead of statehood?

Waiting for Jonathan's answer, I believe that, as race is marginally less relevant here IOTL, there will be less issues about considering Jews as "white" overall (I have to admit, I am not sure that they were ever consistently dubbed as "non-white" throughout the West - considering that, in this timeframe, the (more American) "white/black" and (more European) "Semite/Aryan" polarities tended to overlap without coinciding).
Of cours, this won't necessarily mean that Jews will be unanimously accepted as equals in Western "white"-dominated socities by 1900 AD.
I think that the historical motives that led to the rise of Zionism as signicant force OTL will be lacking ITTL. You may have some equivalent of the Chovevei Zion and similar groups, but nothing like a large concerted effort to create a Jewish national home in Palestine I think.
The relationships between Jews and Arabs will improve relative to OTL consequently.
 
Waiting for Jonathan's answer, I believe that, as race is marginally less relevant here IOTL, there will be less issues about considering Jews as "white" overall (I have to admit, I am not sure that they were ever consistently dubbed as "non-white" throughout the West - considering that, in this timeframe, the (more American) "white/black" and (more European) "Semite/Aryan" polarities tended to overlap without coinciding).

Of cours, this won't necessarily mean that Jews will be unanimously accepted as equals in Western "white"-dominated socities by 1900 AD.
I think that the historical motives that led to the rise of Zionism as signicant force OTL will be lacking ITTL. You may have some equivalent of the Chovevei Zion and similar groups, but nothing like a large concerted effort to create a Jewish national home in Palestine I think.

The relationships between Jews and Arabs will improve relative to OTL consequently.

Also waiting for Jonathan's response, but I'd like to politely disagree. Early Zionists were founding settlements in Israel in 1819 and the rise of nationalism ITTL is likely to create a Jewish identity just as it created Indian and Chinese and even German identities. Jews may even be inspired by the Male who were another exiled group that returned to their homeland after a period of separation. So Zionism will likely exist, and Jews will still try to emigrate to the Israel/Palestine region.

That said with a de facto Jewish city state in Salonika as an alternate destination for Jewish immigrants, plus friendly governments in Austria, Dalmatia, France, etcetera not to mention no Dreyfuss affair Zionism is likely to much less organized and much less popular than OTL. Fewer Jews settling in Israel means less friction with the Arabs (and possibly even friendly relations with the Arabs if the two groups see each other as fellow minorities being ignored by the Turkish government). And certainly no independent Israel. Not that there won't be people pushing for an independent Israel, just they won't have the numbers or international sympathy to make it work.
 
Cultural effects

Jonathan

Any thoughts as to the effects on the arts and culture generally of the Great War?

To take just one example, in OTL Edward Elgar rose to prominence at the turn of the century with his Pomp & Circumstances marches which are all patriotic swagger. At the end of the OTL Great War he composed the elegaic Cello Concerto. What would the Elgar of TTL produce?

Or in OTL the modern art movement at this time was dominated by post-impressionism, which often took influences from 'primitive' non-European art. What would be the effect of an earlier Great War or for that matter non-European cultures already being more known and influential?
 
The last update was great, I love those literature interludes and this kind of exotic short stories are great : I love Jack London, Francisco Coloane and this kind of writers.

On the last academic update, it made me fear more that ever for the future of Russia : call me pessimistic but I got the feeling Russia is on a line and could easily become something much less pleasant than this. Imagine : rampant anti-Semitism, tensions with Germany (remember the Zollverein ports in the Baltic) and with minorities and of course the last holdouts of rebels (is there anybody worth speaking of? A Roman von Ungern-Sternberg?). China could also evolve in something nasty (a Confucian backslash?).

I'd love to hear more about the Ottoman empire and how it is coping with the rise of nationalism in the Balkans : Bosnia seems loyal and kinda have to if it doesn't want to become a Serbian province but Albanians might want at least an Albanian Vilayet and of course Bulgarians will be restive. Arab nationalism could also develop (even if more based on religion than language).

I also think there will be some kind of zionism and with it tensions with locals
 
In terms of racial background, how are Jews viewed, specifically in the USA but also throughout the world? IOTL, they were not really considered fully "white" until the second half of the 20th century, when they started to be assimilated into mainstream society like other contemporaneous immigrant groups from Eastern and Southern Europe. ITTL though, Jews are less of a "European" race. Many more of them have immigrated to the Ottoman Empire and, I'm assuming, have assimilated into that society to a certain extent. Are Jews seen as more "Semitic"? If so, how is that affecting how people treat them?

Waiting for Jonathan's answer, I believe that, as race is marginally less relevant here IOTL, there will be less issues about considering Jews as "white" overall ... Of course, this won't necessarily mean that Jews will be unanimously accepted as equals in Western "white"-dominated socities by 1900 AD.

Also, most countries with substantial Jewish communities have well-established ideas and stereotypes about Jews at this point. The fact that somewhat more Eastern European Jews are emigrating to the Ottoman Empire and fewer to the United States won't change centuries-old opinions that much, especially since some of those Jews are also moving to Western Europe. If anything, French, German or American opinions of Jews are more likely to be affected by the Ostjuden settling in their countries as by those going to the Balkans or Turkey.

In terms of racial categories, the American courts ruled Jews to be white in OTL, and this will probably still be the case, although the ruling class (including the old Sephardic and German-Jewish families) will still look on the new arrivals as "not our kind, dear." In Europe, I suspect that the view of Jews as vaguely "oriental" will be strengthened somewhat, but the presence of Africans and Indians will also make Jews seem less exotic by comparison. And with religion less important to national identity in places like France, Jews might have an easier time - after all, if Senegalese Muslims can be French, why not Jews? In a society where whiteness matters less, the question of whether Jews are white loses some of its force.

Europe and the United States at this point are mixed bags for Jews, but for those not unfortunate enough to be in Hungary or Belgium, things aren't too bad.

Finally, has Zionism as we know it been completely butterflied away? Is it more of a romantic-national movement concerned with settlement and cultural revival instead of statehood?

I think that the historical motives that led to the rise of Zionism as signicant force OTL will be lacking ITTL. You may have some equivalent of the Chovevei Zion and similar groups, but nothing like a large concerted effort to create a Jewish national home in Palestine I think.

Also waiting for Jonathan's response, but I'd like to politely disagree. Early Zionists were founding settlements in Israel in 1819 and the rise of nationalism ITTL is likely to create a Jewish identity just as it created Indian and Chinese and even German identities. Jews may even be inspired by the Male who were another exiled group that returned to their homeland after a period of separation. So Zionism will likely exist, and Jews will still try to emigrate to the Israel/Palestine region.

Zionism exists but in a different form. I think azander12 has it right - TTL's Zionism is a romantic-nationalist movement that wants to revive the Hebrew language and settle in the Sanjaks of Jerusalem, Nablus and Akka, but is largely unconcerned with setting up an independent state. There's a pro-independence faction, but it's a fringe movement, and most Zionists are fine with Ottoman rule as long as they have immigration rights and cultural autonomy. Many of them are also interested in creating cross-border Jewish institutions, which could prove to be another test case for post-Westphalianism, but in the meantime, relations between Jews and Arabs (and between Jews and Turks) are somewhat better than OTL.

BTW, Jewish nationalism is at least as practical an issue in Salonika as it is in Israel/Palestine. With so many different groups of Jews in the city, and with cultural and economic fault lines between them, some people want to erase the divisions by promoting a common Jewish identity - sort of a diaspora Zionism that takes a romantic-nationalist view of the Jewish people but doesn't tie it to a particular territory. Of course, for every two Jews, there are three opinions as to what this common identity should be - there are Yiddishists and Hebraists, those who think Judaism should be defined by religious practice or birth and those who favor a definition based on cultural inheritance or shared commitment, and varying views on which cultural strain of Judaism should be the default to which the others assimilate. Salonika's politics are a bit messy, and that's even before the non-Jews get involved.

What happened to Captain Dreyfuss anyway?

Didn't he save the Emperor's life and get promoted? Or was that someone else?

No, that was Dreyfuss. I don't think his example can be taken to mean much broader, however. One competent Jewish Frenchmen doesn't necessarily mean less prejudice overall.

Saving the emperor's life did in fact help Dreyfus' stalled career; he was promoted to lieutenant colonel shortly afterward, and to full colonel during the civil war (in which he served on the government side). But Ganesha is right to say that this didn't have much effect on the bigger picture. The incident may have changed a few Frenchmen's opinions of Jews, but there's still casual anti-semitism across much of society and more virulent anti-semitism on the far right.

With that said, though, France - along with Britain, Germany, Italy and increasingly Austria - is one of the better places in Europe to be a Jew. There's a glass ceiling, but it's a high one, and very little day-to-day harassment.

Any thoughts as to the effects on the arts and culture generally of the Great War?

To take just one example, in OTL Edward Elgar rose to prominence at the turn of the century with his Pomp & Circumstances marches which are all patriotic swagger. At the end of the OTL Great War he composed the elegaic Cello Concerto. What would the Elgar of TTL produce?

Or in OTL the modern art movement at this time was dominated by post-impressionism, which often took influences from 'primitive' non-European art. What would be the effect of an earlier Great War or for that matter non-European cultures already being more known and influential?

There's certainly an earlier transition from "war is glorious" to "war is hell" - large-scale industrial warfare will do that. The glory is permanently tarnished, and music and art will reflect that, although there will still be portrayals of heroism and self-sacrifice. Elgar might actually serve as an officer in the war - as a British aristocrat in his 30s, he'd be expected to do so - and assuming he survives, his music might be elegiac from the beginning.

There's already been considerable influence of non-European cultures on the European states that have had closest contact with them - there's a fair amount of West Africa in French art, literature and music by this point. Non-European art is still considered somewhat primitive, although the perception of what's primitive and what isn't is more nuanced; I'm not sure how primitivist postwar European art will be, although artists and musicians will certainly be casting about for new themes that represent a break from the previous, shattered era.

The last update was great, I love those literature interludes and this kind of exotic short stories are great : I love Jack London, Francisco Coloane and this kind of writers.

Thanks! The literary updates are a lot of fun to write, so there'll be more.

On the last academic update, it made me fear more that ever for the future of Russia : call me pessimistic but I got the feeling Russia is on a line and could easily become something much less pleasant than this ... China could also evolve in something nasty (a Confucian backslash?).

Russia and China are certainly on a tightrope - if their reforms fail, or if the reformers have to resort to dictatorial methods to make things work, then things could get pretty bad. Of course, they might also muddle through, or they might have trouble but not enough to send them into the abyss.

There's no Ungern-Sternberg equivalent in Siberia, although there are a few warlords in isolated regions, and other populations that aren't in outright rebellion but are able to get away with ignoring the government for now.

Very interested to see any different developments in southern Africa!

I'd love to hear more about the Ottoman empire and how it is coping with the rise of nationalism in the Balkans : Bosnia seems loyal and kinda have to if it doesn't want to become a Serbian province but Albanians might want at least an Albanian Vilayet and of course Bulgarians will be restive. Arab nationalism could also develop (even if more based on religion than language).

You'll see both of these in 1900-10. There have been several southern African updates already; the list on the wiki will point you to them. BTW, thanks to sketchdoodle for updating the list.

This part of Africa was fairly quiet during the war (although there were a couple of scenes in Mutapa and Yeke) so there isn't a great deal of immediate shakeout to include in the next update, but long-term effects will snowball during the early twentieth century.

The Ottomans are indeed facing trouble in the provinces. The Bosnians are loyal - even most of the Bosnian Serbs are, due to Austria's political bungling during the occupation - but they've become used to running things their own way. The Albanians also ruled themselves during the war and want more autonomy now, to say nothing of the Yemenis and the desert tribes. And all this is happening at a time when Ottoman semi-demi-democracy has become sclerotic and is running out of ideas. The first two or three decades of the twentieth century won't be smooth ones.
 

Deleted member 67076

Jonathan, what's been going on in Hispaniola and Central America at this time?

Have plans for a canal been draw up yet?
 
Also waiting for Jonathan's response, but I'd like to politely disagree. Early Zionists were founding settlements in Israel in 1819 and the rise of nationalism ITTL is likely to create a Jewish identity just as it created Indian and Chinese and even German identities. Jews may even be inspired by the Male who were another exiled group that returned to their homeland after a period of separation. So Zionism will likely exist, and Jews will still try to emigrate to the Israel/Palestine region.

That said with a de facto Jewish city state in Salonika as an alternate destination for Jewish immigrants, plus friendly governments in Austria, Dalmatia, France, etcetera not to mention no Dreyfuss affair Zionism is likely to much less organized and much less popular than OTL. Fewer Jews settling in Israel means less friction with the Arabs (and possibly even friendly relations with the Arabs if the two groups see each other as fellow minorities being ignored by the Turkish government). And certainly no independent Israel. Not that there won't be people pushing for an independent Israel, just they won't have the numbers or international sympathy to make it work.

I was not aware of Early Zionist settlements in 1819 (the earliest occurrences I knew of were around 1881, but then, attempts to settle parts of Palestine by some Jewish groups are attested in the Middle Ages - I wouldn't call that "Zionism" but yeah) and I would be grateful for any source on that.
However, I see our disagreement as largely semantic: I concur that everything you said would have happened, but I would not have called it "Zionism" as all these opinions and activities would lack a coherent and organized political focus toward a Jewish (sort of) state in Palestine.
So, the political form taken by Zionism in IOTL's twentieth century won't be a signficant force ITTL, barring some unlikely developments (but who, in IOTL's 1900 AD, would have said that the physical destruction of European Jewry was "likely" ? ).
But if you take "Zionism" as covering a broader spectrum, sure, forms of that exist ITTL.
 
Arab nationalism could also develop (even if more based on religion than language).

While it might develop, I very much doubt it'd become popular or widespread, IOTL Arab Nationalism primarily came about initially because of the way the Ottoman Empire developed in the 1880-1916 period and would later move from fringe movement relatively well known on account of the British pumping a vry large amount of support into it right before, during and after WWI and would later only become as widespread and popular as it became at its height because of the various independence movements cop-opting it or in some cases it co-opting them.

That said of course even IOTL Arab Nationalism was never truly or completely popular among the Arab population, afterall half the Arab world spurned it outright and of the half that did'nt the few successes it had all collapsed within a few years and it basically fell out of what popularity it had around the late 70's.
 
Jonathan, I know this sounds a bit nitpick-y, but will post-colonial Irian Jaya (West Papua) be joined with with German New Guinea ITTL? Also, are there any plans for the Moluccas (the south of which declared independence as a republic in 1950) ?

I've also just found out that the last sultan of Ternate instigated a rebellion in 1896 in OTL. What would the outcome be in this timeline, in your opinion?

EDIT: I also found a document regarding OTL Malay nationalism. It seemed that the Malays and their rulers were afraid of being strangers in their homelands if foreign immigration continues into the Peninsula (that, and more equal citizenship laws and loss of special status). With a more hardline British post-war government in TTL, I can see this going one way or another.

DOUBLE EDIT: Is Sun Yat-sen butterflied in this timeline? He was pretty much a walking butterfly-maker all round the Asia-Pacific from birth.
 
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Well it is the first i've read of his works - people seem to speak highly of some of his other titles, so I picked it up. It was entertaining but the subject matter is what it is. Although it is one of the first times I've been to a cemetery that has a book named after it
 
Can you tell us why? What is your problem in Eco's way of writing or concepts? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding you since I still yet to read the Prague Cemetery. Hehehe.

I am personally quite far from Eco's approach scientifically, and I found some things he wrote extremely questionable, while others are good and enjoyable; but my warning was about not taking uncritically his narrative work as historically accurate ( have "The Name of the Rose" in mind; I have not read "The Cemetery of Prague" indeed).

EDIT: I am probably not very objective about him. Some recent remarks of his on Italian press have really upset me, but this should not detract from the good he did in his career.
 
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