Malê Rising

Actually, a random thought- if Indian troops spread Islam in Tahiti, what happens if companies of Maori troops end up in the islands and begin talking about Ringatū or even Pai Mārire? A real spread of Polynesian christian syncretism could be fun.

Oh, just you wait.

I've already mentioned that Maori sycretism is my model for how Islam will develop among Pacific Islanders, but the original syncretic faiths will also get some wider traction.

Nicely written, yes, but there are two things in the story that don't sound like May at all. The first is that, if I haven't missed some minor novel, he only wrote in the first person when the hero was himself, mostly in the guises of Kara Ben Nemsi or Old Shatterhand. The second thing - while he was tolerant towards other religions, he always wore his Christian faith very visibly, and I doubt that he would have written about Japanese or Itelmen beliefs in a way that might suggest that he thought of them as true. The story would sound more like May if, while told from Minoru's POV, it would be third person, and if the spiritual forces aiding Minoru would be somehow connected with the Christian god.

Fair enough. The only May stories I've read have involved Old Shatterhand or Kara ben Nemsi (the latter is my favorite for fairly obvious reasons), so I guess I assumed that he always used the first-person voice. It could be that by 1899, TTL's May has a sufficiently vivid... imagination... that he would believe himself to be Minoru, but more likely you are correct and the story would be told in the third person omniscient.

I'd considered the Christianity issue myself - the Kara ben Nemsi stories do let the hero's companion make a case for Islam, but they make very obvious that the narrator is Christian. You can assume that later in Minoru, when the heroes encounter the Itelmen, something will happen to make it appear that the kami are manifestations of the Christian God - or at least that Peter will express that opinion! The part of the story I excerpted is the point where unnatural things are just starting to happen, and Minoru hasn't yet discussed the appearance of the kami with Peter or the Itelmen; when he does, Peter will argue that God was responsible, and will take a somewhat C.S. Lewis-esque view that the faith of all good people is in fact faith in Christ.
 
Can anybody update the list of Malê Rising posts on the Wiki? We've come quite a way since the middle of the Great War. http://wiki.alternatehistory.com/doku.php/timelines/list_of_male_rising_posts

Yes, someone can!

You yourself could, for instance. It's a "wiki!"

I'd be doing instead of preaching myself but it's nearly bedtime for me, and I had done a pretty long stretch of updates a few months ago. I didn't mention it because I wasn't going to until I got it caught up and I fell far short of that.

We should all pitch in. I'll be on a road trip this coming week and probably have limited to no Net access, and I'll be busy tomorrow and the day after preparing. If there is still a gap to be filled come next week, maybe then I'll get back to it.

But I hope that gap would be smaller than it is at this moment...
 
One of the things ITTL that I like most so far is Salonika, so I was wondering what life is actually like there. We know it's a Jewish Majority but what are the actual numbers, what about distinctions within the Jewish community? Do the Sephardi/Ashkenazi/Mizrahi/Romaniotes all form distinctive groups within the Jewish majority or have they all basically coalesced into one big Jewish soup (which will then be thrown in Hitlers face)? If they are big distinctions within the Jewish community what are the general economic and social niches they fall into? Whats the general lingua franca of the city given how I count atleast five different candidates for that?
 
Fair enough. The only May stories I've read have involved Old Shatterhand or Kara ben Nemsi (the latter is my favorite for fairly obvious reasons), so I guess I assumed that he always used the first-person voice. It could be that by 1899, TTL's May has a sufficiently vivid... imagination... that he would believe himself to be Minoru, but more likely you are correct and the story would be told in the third person omniscient.
Well, he certainly got himself into hot water IOTL when he got himself trapped by his own stories and make-believe about really having lived through the adventures he described, but that hinged on the narrator being himself, the German "adventurer"; I think even Karl May wouldn't have succeeded in making others and himself believe that he was a Japanese adventurer as well. ;)

The part of the story I excerpted is the point where unnatural things are just starting to happen, and Minoru hasn't yet discussed the appearance of the kami with Peter or the Itelmen; when he does, Peter will argue that God was responsible, and will take a somewhat C.S. Lewis-esque view that the faith of all good people is in fact faith in Christ.
Yes, that sounds more like May.
 
Last edited:
In OTL, the British created a Chamber of Princes in the 1920s - it was mainly a talking shop, and had negligible effect on the Raj's policies. If the federal portions of the Government of India Act 1935 had gone into effect then it would have had a larger role, but they never did.




More that they're willing to continue with complex early-colonial relationships of the type they made in 18th-century India, early 19th-century Malaya or indeed at Waitangi, and to incorporate these relationships in the empire's developing constitutional structure. The reason for this lies partly in changed attitudes resulting from the Malê alliance and partly in practical measures necessitated by imperial overstretch, but cause has long since merged with effect.

In any event, I agree that there might be some spillover effect on the Maori - six MPs instead of four, for instance, or a more formal demarcation of land title, leading to less intense land wars and more willingness by the Maori to volunteer for the NZ forces.



Sounds reasonable. The Great War certainly wasn't a "white man's war" any more than World War I in OTL - the powers simply couldn't afford to sideline their colonial troops. If the Maori volunteered, they'd be welcomed - hell, even Australian Aborigines would probably be allowed to serve, assuming any (some of those in South Australia?) wished to do so.



It does amuse me, but it doesn't really surprise me - legal documents, especially those that resolve treaty rights, tend to be very meticulous in setting forth the facts. I've noticed the same thing with respect to International Court of Justice briefs and judgments on border disputes - they can run on for hundreds of pages, and they usually try to collect all the evidence, sometimes including oral histories as well as documents.

Thanks for the links - I'll check them out.

The Treaty process certainly is an interesting one. I spent a summer one year during uni working in the Maori Affairs ministry where I was tasked with investigating capacity building in local Maori groups (not necessarily iwi level). It was rather enlightening to see the amount of effort or passion that went into engaging with local and central government on planning and Treaty work, in order to become part of the process of local governance. I'm not quite sure of the over-all merits to the community or the nation but it certainly has created a generation of amateurs and professionals who have become enthused experts in both the colonial and modern experience of the various Maori peoples.

There are so many small changes that could occur that would make the Maori experience better or different though that I was not aware of till I reviewed some of those links. A recent parliamentary report, written in part based on research from various constitutional scholars thinks that the legal framework in place from the 1850s British legislation in force for NZ expressly contemplated Maori self governance within the national parliamentary structure but that for various obvious reasons, was never implemented. This is not particularly helpful for your timeline, but still mildly interesting to me anyway.
 
or have they all basically coalesced into one big Jewish soup (which will then be thrown in Hitlers face)?
I don't think that there wil be a Hitler equivalent ITTL - at least, not in Germany (which is on a much better path than OTL Germany was after WW I) and probably also not elsewhere anywhere in a European country that would be able to set out and conquer most of Europe in the way Germany did OTL. There may be *fascist and anti-semitic dictatorships in some countries (Hungary looks like a prime candidate), but I don't expect anything on the scale of Nazi Germany. The only threats for the Salonika Jews I could imagine would be the Ottoman Empire to be dissolved violently or fall into the hands of a nasty sort of Turkish nationalism, or a post-Tolstoyan Russia taking a turn for the worse, dredging up anti-semitic sentiments again and going for the domination of Europe (or at least for a return to the mission of "liberating the Balkan Christians"). But somehow I don't believe that any of this will happen ITTL.
 
Jonathan, I'd like to also add that Lucknow was considered the last centre of Mughal culture; there were some princes who lived there as well; if they've survived in your TL, I could see the city being the point of entrance for Belloist ideals.
 
In case anyone missed the update (a literary one), it's at post 2893. Postwar Africa will be next, the last academic update of the 19th century.

If no one volunteers to update the wiki, I'll see what I can do after I finish the century, although I won't make any promises as to when. I do plan to take care of a couple of housekeeping matters then, including a story-only thread in the "Finished Timelines" forum (the timeline will be divided into three "books" for that purpose).

Was there a Battle of Jutland/big battleship brawl in the Great War?

Probably not. The French and Russian navies realized that they couldn't go toe to toe with the RN, so they concentrated on commerce raiding, defending their ports and keeping local superiority on critical sea lanes. Their strategy was to oppose strength with speed and maneuverability. There wouldn't have been an instance where 250 ships were in the same place at the same time - there were some smaller battles which included battleship duels, but nothing like Jutland.

Ise da Bahai dat build da boat

Probably no changes to the newfs yet - nothing short of direct ASB intervention could change their way of life. :p

One of the things ITTL that I like most so far is Salonika, so I was wondering what life is actually like there. We know it's a Jewish Majority but what are the actual numbers, what about distinctions within the Jewish community? Do the Sephardi/Ashkenazi/Mizrahi/Romaniotes all form distinctive groups within the Jewish majority or have they all basically coalesced into one big Jewish soup (which will then be thrown in Hitlers face)? If they are big distinctions within the Jewish community what are the general economic and social niches they fall into? Whats the general lingua franca of the city given how I count at least five different candidates for that?

At a rough guess, the population of Salonika (including both the city proper and the surrounding area that is part of the free port) is between 500,000 and 750,000, with at least 80 percent being Jewish. This is a much higher population than OTL and has made the city very crowded - one reason it didn't get even more Jewish refugees is that there simply isn't room for them.

The main dividing line within the Jewish population is between the Sephardim/Mizrahim/Romaniotes who were there before the free port was declared, and the Russian/Eastern European/Central Asian Jewish refugees who came afterward. The Central Asians may actually qualify as a third group - although they are from the Russian Empire, they're very culturally distinct from the Ashkenazim. There may also have been some late immigration from Persia (due to the civil war) and Yemen (due to the fighting in that region as well as the generally low status of Yemenite Jews). The Persians and Yemenis are fairly small communities and will eventually merge into the Mizrahim but haven't done so yet; the Ashkenazim, Central Asians and to some extent the Sephardi elites are large enough to stay culturally distinct.

The Sephardim and Romaniotes are, for the most part, at the top of the economic and political ladder, although some rich Ashkenazi businessmen who managed to leave Russia with their money are starting to break in. The recent immigrants and the Central Asians are at the bottom, although again with exceptions. The professional class is made up of Sephardim and educated Ashkenazim; the small businessmen and tradesmen come from the established Mizrahi community and the majority of Ashkenazim who arrived poor.

The lingua franca is Turkish, although there's a romantic Hebrew revivalist movement which is gaining traction, and there's a Hebrew publishing house in the city. Most people who are in business also speak some Greek. The communities also speak their own languages among themselves - Yiddish, Ladino, Judeo-Persian, Judeo-Arabic, Bukhari and Greek are all spoken, and there are clubs and literary societies for each community.

If you like, I'll set a narrative update there sometime during the early 20th century.

Well, he certainly got himself into hot water IOTL when he got himself trapped by his own stories and make-believe about really having lived through the adventures he described, but that hinged on the narrator being himself, the German "adventurer"; I think even Karl May wouldn't have succeeded in making others and himself believe that he was a Japanese adventurer as well. ;)

Well, I didn't say he'd successfully claim to be Japanese. :p

But yeah, he'd more likely claim to be Minoru's German companion, and would say that he's telling Minoru's story exactly as related by that hero.

There are so many small changes that could occur that would make the Maori experience better or different though that I was not aware of till I reviewed some of those links. A recent parliamentary report, written in part based on research from various constitutional scholars thinks that the legal framework in place from the 1850s British legislation in force for NZ expressly contemplated Maori self governance within the national parliamentary structure but that for various obvious reasons, was never implemented.

Those obvious reasons would all still exist in TTL, so I don't think this would happen, but as you've mentioned, there might be some other pragmatic concessions on land and parliamentary representation that make the situation at least slightly less contentious.

One day off-list, I'd like to hear about your work in the Maori affairs ministry.

There may be *fascist and anti-semitic dictatorships in some countries (Hungary looks like a prime candidate)

Belgium is headed in that direction also, and there will be others here and there.

The only threats for the Salonika Jews I could imagine would be the Ottoman Empire to be dissolved violently or fall into the hands of a nasty sort of Turkish nationalism, or a post-Tolstoyan Russia taking a turn for the worse, dredging up anti-semitic sentiments again and going for the domination of Europe (or at least for a return to the mission of "liberating the Balkan Christians").

There's also the possibility of an expansionist and ultra-nationalist Greece. But you're correct that these things won't happen - Russia, the Ottoman Empire and Greece will all have troubles, but not those particular troubles.

Jonathan, I'd like to also add that Lucknow was considered the last centre of Mughal culture; there were some princes who lived there as well; if they've survived in your TL, I could see the city being the point of entrance for Belloist ideals.

There's already been some entry through the *Ahmadis, but Lucknow may play a part as well. The Mughals will be involved in TTL somehow; I just need to work out the details.
 

Sulemain

Banned
I know it sounds gushing, but it's good to see a TL that has a happy future laid out in it, not one where even the good guys use orbital bombardment to prove a point.
 
I spent the last few weeks reading this TL and I must say that it's magnificent. Rarely have I seen such detail and plausibility coupled with good prose and detailed history book style updates. I will be following it for sure.
 
I wonder if some future TTL historian would compare and contrast the different styles of Europeans ruling over their own Asian and African kingdoms. It would be interesting to contrast White Rajah Sarawak with, say, Romanov Eritrea or Kohler's South Kivu.

Then again, the circumstances in which these kingdoms come to power could make comparing them impossible.
 
Last edited:
I wonder if some future TTL historian would compare and contrast the different styles of Europeans ruling over their own Asian and African kingdoms. It would be interesting to contrast White Rajah Sarawak with, say, Romanov Eritrea or Kohler's South Kivu.

Then again, the circumstances in which these kingdoms come to power could make comparing them impossible.

Never underestimate the ability of historians and social scientists to make useless hay over superficial points of comparison.

If this timeline has managed to keep that phenomenon from happening, then it has just made the jump to utopia.
 
I know it sounds gushing, but it's good to see a TL that has a happy future laid out in it, not one where even the good guys use orbital bombardment to prove a point.

That aspect of TTL seems to please and annoy about the same number of people. All I'll say right now is that both sides will find things to like about the twentieth century.

If you'd be willing to I'd love to see an update set in Salonika.

Consider it done. I'll fit it in somewhere between 1900 and 1920 - I just need to figure out what the story will be. Probably an immigrant narrative of some kind, but I'll have to figure out the characters and fit it into the bigger picture.

I spent the last few weeks reading this TL and I must say that it's magnificent. Rarely have I seen such detail and plausibility coupled with good prose and detailed history book style updates. I will be following it for sure.

Thanks - that means a lot from someone of your caliber. Please keep reading and commenting.

I wonder if some future TTL historian would compare and contrast the different styles of Europeans ruling over their own Asian and African kingdoms. It would be interesting to contrast White Rajah Sarawak with, say, Romanov Eritrea or Kohler's South Kivu.

Then again, the circumstances in which these kingdoms come to power could make comparing them impossible.

Never underestimate the ability of historians and social scientists to make useless hay over superficial points of comparison.

If this timeline has managed to keep that phenomenon from happening, then it has just made the jump to utopia.

That wouldn't be utopian, it would be downright ASB.

In any event, there aren't many points in common between the three kingdoms other than "white guy in charge" - the manner in which the white rajahs came to power, the religious and cultural makeup of the people they rule, and forms of government and relations with outside patrons/antagonists are all very different. Historians, both popular and academic, will definitely fasten on them - they're no more immune to the appeal of the exotic and unusual than anyone else - but they'll probably contrast more than compare.

The next update will be in a couple of days, and in the meantime, I'd again be grateful for one more comment to fill the page.
 
Question.

In terms of racial background, how are Jews viewed, specifically in the USA but also throughout the world? IOTL, they were not really considered fully "white" until the second half of the 20th century, when they started to be assimilated into mainstream society like other contemporaneous immigrant groups from Eastern and Southern Europe. ITTL though, Jews are less of a "European" race. Many more of them have immigrated to the Ottoman Empire and, I'm assuming, have assimilated into that society to a certain extent. Are Jews seen as more "Semitic"? If so, how is that affecting how people treat them?

Also, how is the relationship between Arabs and Jews going?

Finally, has Zionism as we know it been completely butterflied away? Is it more of a romantic-national movement concerned with settlement and cultural revival instead of statehood?
 
Top