Make Spain an influental state in the world post-Congress of Vienna

It is 1815, Spain is in deep trouble. It is up to you to make Spain an influental state in Europe.

A). Is this possible?

B). What is required to this?

C). Can they regain, or at least make dominions of the colonies?
 
Get Spain industrialized, gain some key resources, preferably rubber and oil for the turn of the century. Abandon some colonies that aren't worth the trouble but keep a few that are.

The main thing here is to restore order on the mainland. Give up some monarch powers to please the people and hopefully have a better monarch or at least one that can keep power and not get a revolution on their hands. Get to rapidly industrializing German style. Throw down railroads throughout the country and begin raising factories in the large cities, turn Malaga, Seville, Valencia, Barcelona and Madrid into industrial centers.

The best idea is to strengthen the homeland and ignore colonies for a while, abandon South America but keep parts of Central America and some islands in the Caribbean maybe Argentina as Spain's Canada but that is low priority, stealing Indonesia should be a piece of cake and try to open China before the British get there, that would be a huge advantage, gain parts of Africa in the Berlin conference, morisco would be nice, SE Asian would be OK, undermine British ambitions in the Mediterranean, and try to get Egypt, this will be huge and if done right, it will be a major win for Spain and cotton for days. If all this goes through we can see Spain as no. 2 power in Europe, though Germany may give it a run for its money
 
Making it an influential state in Europe is impossible, as that ship had long sailed after the War of the Spanish Succession or perhaps even earlier. Spain's most preferable path in the nineteenth century is "splendid isolation" from the affairs of Europe". Making it influential in, say South America on the other hand....

In South America, it's very possible that Peru remains Spanish considering that it had to. Argentina would be a great addition, but it was a fairly rebellious colony so that's impossible, and same goes for formerly-New Granada. In Mexico, the Treaty of Cordoba initially made an independent Mexican Empire in personal union with Spain. Replacing Ferdinand with a sane king would be required for this to be accepted. Of course, it's by no means secure that Spain keeps the colonies for another generation - the Treaty of Cordoba is a great model that should prohibit rebellions if something similar is done to Peru down the line.

Replacing the idiot Ferdinand with some other monarch (by killing Ferdinand) would make Spain more stable, which means that Catalonia's and the Basque regions' burgeoning industrialization (for instance, by the 1790s, they had spinning jennies) will happen earlier. This should serve to make Spain more modern earlier.
 
I wonder if industrialization would only exacerbate the splits within Spanish society. The way the Spain was administered up to the Borbons (Castile, Aragon etc. being run differently) created a legacy of non-integration, policy difference and general economic out-of-syncness within the Spanish polity, with the lands of former Castile generally being on a different economic cycle compared with those in Aragon (for example Castile's economy was essentially taxed to destruction in the 1600s while Aragon's maritime links allowed it to recover much quicker from the wreckage of the 1680s). The Nueva Planta decrees and other Borbon reforms during the 1700s placed more-developed Catalonia + Valencia under less-developed Castilian domination, generating regional resentment. Within Catalonia and Valencia itself there was resentment over the privileges of traditional power-holders (aristocrats and guild descendants) versus new money and the laboring class. The permanence of these splits may be seen in the (rough) similarities between the Aragonese/Castile divide and the regional breakdown of the First Carlist Wars + Spanish Civil War.

The point is that industrialization is a double-edged sword that has the potential to cause tremendous social disruption in states that have a history of division. Austria and Russia got along fine as Great Powers without major industrialization, in the first half of the Vienna Era at least.

I would argue that 'influential' in the Vienna system was probably not tremendously difficult to achieve, and the failure of Spain to achieve it during the 1800s was probably more due to its see-sawing politics rather than any natural failure (of course, reforming that would not have been easy...) Through dynastic ties to the Two Sicilies and its historical links to the Italian states, it would not have been hard for a strengthened Spain to play a pivot or spoiler role in one of the key European Questions of the time, which would have guaranteed it a place at Congress discussions. Same goes, to a (much) lesser degree, regarding Spanish colonies in America, North Africa and the Far East.
 

The Avenger

Banned
Get Spain industrialized, gain some key resources, preferably rubber and oil for the turn of the century. Abandon some colonies that aren't worth the trouble but keep a few that are.

The main thing here is to restore order on the mainland. Give up some monarch powers to please the people and hopefully have a better monarch or at least one that can keep power and not get a revolution on their hands. Get to rapidly industrializing German style. Throw down railroads throughout the country and begin raising factories in the large cities, turn Malaga, Seville, Valencia, Barcelona and Madrid into industrial centers.

The best idea is to strengthen the homeland and ignore colonies for a while, abandon South America but keep parts of Central America and some islands in the Caribbean maybe Argentina as Spain's Canada but that is low priority, stealing Indonesia should be a piece of cake and try to open China before the British get there, that would be a huge advantage, gain parts of Africa in the Berlin conference, morisco would be nice, SE Asian would be OK, undermine British ambitions in the Mediterranean, and try to get Egypt, this will be huge and if done right, it will be a major win for Spain and cotton for days. If all this goes through we can see Spain as no. 2 power in Europe, though Germany may give it a run for its money
Spain can also try to open up Japan before the US does this. A Spanish-Japanese alliance would be interesting.
 
A stronger Spanish Empire that keeps it's colonies will be clashing with the United States as an ideological treat and over territory. Instead of a Mexican-American war like in OTL over "we want your land" we could see a war over Texas or to "liberate" the Mexicans from the Spanish (and take land as compensation).

I suppose if you want to avoid this you could have Britain support the Spanish against the Americans as a deterrence but Britain's foreign policy not going to stay constant enough to stop war from breaking out I feel. The moment they budge a little bit there will be a crisis in North America.
 
I wonder if industrialization would only exacerbate the splits within Spanish society. The way the Spain was administered up to the Borbons (Castile, Aragon etc. being run differently) created a legacy of non-integration, policy difference and general economic out-of-syncness within the Spanish polity, with the lands of former Castile generally being on a different economic cycle compared with those in Aragon (for example Castile's economy was essentially taxed to destruction in the 1600s while Aragon's maritime links allowed it to recover much quicker from the wreckage of the 1680s). The Nueva Planta decrees and other Borbon reforms during the 1700s placed more-developed Catalonia + Valencia under less-developed Castilian domination, generating regional resentment. Within Catalonia and Valencia itself there was resentment over the privileges of traditional power-holders (aristocrats and guild descendants) versus new money and the laboring class. The permanence of these splits may be seen in the (rough) similarities between the Aragonese/Castile divide and the regional breakdown of the First Carlist Wars + Spanish Civil War.

The point is that industrialization is a double-edged sword that has the potential to cause tremendous social disruption in states that have a history of division. Austria and Russia got along fine as Great Powers without major industrialization, in the first half of the Vienna Era at least.

I would argue that 'influential' in the Vienna system was probably not tremendously difficult to achieve, and the failure of Spain to achieve it during the 1800s was probably more due to its see-sawing politics rather than any natural failure (of course, reforming that would not have been easy...) Through dynastic ties to the Two Sicilies and its historical links to the Italian states, it would not have been hard for a strengthened Spain to play a pivot or spoiler role in one of the key European Questions of the time, which would have guaranteed it a place at Congress discussions. Same goes, to a (much) lesser degree, regarding Spanish colonies in America, North Africa and the Far East.
Neat, I haven't really thought about it that way.
Though I believe with suitable reform, these problems can be overcome
Regional division would be weakened if Spain became more interconnected via rail line
 
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raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
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Making it an influential state in Europe is impossible, as that ship had long sailed after the War of the Spanish Succession or perhaps even earlier. Spain's most preferable path in the nineteenth century is "splendid isolation" from the affairs of Europe". Making it influential in, say South America on the other hand....

In South America, it's very possible that Peru remains Spanish considering that it had to. Argentina would be a great addition, but it was a fairly rebellious colony so that's impossible, and same goes for formerly-New Granada. In Mexico, the Treaty of Cordoba initially made an independent Mexican Empire in personal union with Spain. Replacing Ferdinand with a sane king would be required for this to be accepted. Of course, it's by no means secure that Spain keeps the colonies for another generation - the Treaty of Cordoba is a great model that should prohibit rebellions if something similar is done to Peru down the line.

Replacing the idiot Ferdinand with some other monarch (by killing Ferdinand) would make Spain more stable, which means that Catalonia's and the Basque regions' burgeoning industrialization (for instance, by the 1790s, they had spinning jennies) will happen earlier. This should serve to make Spain more modern earlier.

Why were La Plata and New Granada so relatively rebellious?

The best idea is to strengthen the homeland and ignore colonies for a while, abandon South America but keep parts of Central America and some islands in the Caribbean maybe Argentina as Spain's Canada but that is low priority

Ironically for a guy who thinks Spain would do well to have rubber resources, this leaves out Peru. Peru (I think its Amazon country in the east) had the most rubber in South Spanish America. It, along with Bolivia/Charcas/Upper Peru, also had the most loyalists to Spain.
 
Actually, what Spain needs is to sell Luzon or (majority of it) to Portugal or Britain after losing their influence in japan to retain the Philippines indefinitely.
 
Ironically for a guy who thinks Spain would do well to have rubber resources, this leaves out Peru. Peru (I think its Amazon country in the east) had the most rubber in South Spanish America. It, along with Bolivia/Charcas/Upper Peru, also had the most loyalists to Spain.
Not to mention the Potosí silver mines, and other "boom" type commodities such as the guano in the Chincha Islands.
Rubber from OTL's Acre state of Brazil would require some dedication to be turned into a viable commodity, though. IOTL, in the midst of the Acre and Amazon rubber boom that benefit Brazil's economy from the 1890's to the 1910's, a British diplomat stole some seringueira seeds and smuggled them to Malaysia, where he set them up with a more organized production method (planting in lines, rather than extracting rubber resin from isolated seringueira trees). Malaysia would eventually outproduce Brazil in rubber, effectively ending the latter's rubber boom.
A Spanish government in Peru would have to deal with similar problems.
 
A few things.
1. Ferdinand wasn't a particularly bad king when they let him rule. If you look at the economy when he ruled it did much better than the tumultoes periods like Riego's coup d'etat. He just opposed the liberal state that the army+ the bourguoise were trying to stablish. We have to take into account that Mexico declared independence IOTL because Riego stablished the Cadiz constitution which was too conservative for them
2. The wars of independence could have gone to Spain's side if you manage to remove all the plots and insurrections leaded by the liberals and the free masons (el partido liberal y comunero)
3. Spain's importance in the world came from america. It was a territory with roughly 14 million people which is a very succulent market. It had a population larger than Prussia with a very rich aristocracy that could buy plenty of manufactures. Before Napoleon's invasion regions like Catalonia,Segovia or Caceres were developing a very strong textile industry which got demolished by the French and the British (in the sack of Caceres the Brits purposly targeted and sacked the city because it competed directly with the British textile industry)
4. Kill Riego period. I cannot empathize how important is this person for Spain's decadence. His 3 years of goverment were pure anarchy and under his watch Mexico and Peru which were loyal to his cause were lost. Riego's army that was going to Buenos Aires was bigger and larger than the army of San Martin and Bolivar combined and if he didn't make his coup and stop sending troops altogether to America only God knows what could have happened to the continent
5. Kill Isabel and let Carlos take the throne. That way you can skip 3 pointless internal wars and Carlos had the idea of industrialization through interventionism from the start. If he managed to keep a large market cautive (Hispanic america) the country could have had an economic boom.
6. Make Narvaez a prime minister. He is the only worth while polititian that the country has had in the last 2 centuries (I would argue that Miguel Primo de Rivera is another one but him with the one that shall not be mentioned unless you want some rabid shitposting are not particularly popular because they were dictators)
 
Get Spain industrialized, gain some key resources, preferably rubber and oil for the turn of the century. Abandon some colonies that aren't worth the trouble but keep a few that are.

...

The best idea is to strengthen the homeland and ignore colonies for a while, abandon South America but keep parts of Central America and some islands in the Caribbean maybe Argentina as Spain's Canada but that is low priority, stealing Indonesia should be a piece of cake and try to open China before the British get there, that would be a huge advantage, gain parts of Africa in the Berlin conference, morisco would be nice, SE Asian would be OK, undermine British ambitions in the Mediterranean, and try to get Egypt, this will be huge and if done right, it will be a major win for Spain and cotton for days. If all this goes through we can see Spain as no. 2 power in Europe, though Germany may give it a run for its money

Does Spain have the population to be the #2 power in Europe? I would think that France, Germany, Austria/Austria-Hungary and Russia would likely be bigger players. I'd imagine a colony-lite Spain would be more on the level of Italy or the Netherlands. Not weak, but not the world defining power it once was.
 
Wasn't there a lot of emigration from Spain to Latin America in the 19th Century?

Have Spain grab Algeria or Morocco and send surplus population there instead, thus keeping them close to home. Maybe have a relatively open immigration policy for Catholics, leading to many Poles and Irish coming to Spain's holdings.
 

raharris1973

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Wasn't there a lot of emigration from Spain to Latin America in the 19th Century?

Have Spain grab Algeria or Morocco and send surplus population there instead, thus keeping them close to home. Maybe have a relatively open immigration policy for Catholics, leading to many Poles and Irish coming to Spain's holdings.

This would be the Salvador de Madariaga concept from his Columbus biography. He called the Spanish Americas "a superfluous empire" and said that the real "greater Spains" should have been in North Africa.

Speaking personally, such an alternative would have only one advantage and one advantage only, I could communicate through North Africa in Spanish, a vastly easier language than Arabic or Berber for English-speakers.

However, in reality, send "surplus population" of Spain and other parts of Europe just extends the ugliness of conflict associated with settler colonialism.
 
This would be the Salvador de Madariaga concept from his Columbus biography. He called the Spanish Americas "a superfluous empire" and said that the real "greater Spains" should have been in North Africa.

Speaking personally, such an alternative would have only one advantage and one advantage only, I could communicate through North Africa in Spanish, a vastly easier language than Arabic or Berber for English-speakers.

However, in reality, send "surplus population" of Spain and other parts of Europe just extends the ugliness of conflict associated with settler colonialism.

It might be ugly, but if Spain has an extra 10 million spaniards plus a few million poles and irish in North Africa, plus a large number of Kabyle come 1900 Spain will be a stronger power.
 
It might be ugly, but if Spain has an extra 10 million spaniards plus a few million poles and irish in North Africa, plus a large number of Kabyle come 1900 Spain will be a stronger power.

But can you get that many Spainards (not to mention non Spainish Catholics) to come to North Africa? It's not as hospitable as say, the New World or Australia.
 
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