Make J'onn J'onzz socially relevant?

RandomIdeaGuy said:
That's pretty much what I was thinking, too. Have him concurrently in the Outsiders and in his Alan Moore penned solo title. I think to be realistic we've got to have some down-time in popularity for J'onn, so putting him in the Outsiders would be a good way to put him "on the backburner" but then when that becomes popular it brings him back forward.
That works: get enough popularity to spin him off (or enough DC thinks he can help save a Green Arrow book), & either backburner him some in Outsiders or see if his sales improve enough to boost both. (TBH, I'd say, if he's strong enough to get spun off, don't screw it up by "pushing him out" of Outsiders--but that presupposes DC management is smart, which I can't guarantee.:p)
RandomIdeaGuy said:
IOTL the Lantern/Arrow series IIRC ran 14 (!) issues before being cancelled around '73, then was revived in '76 and continued into '83 (roughly around the time the Outsiders were created). The first run was the one that focused on social issues, while the second run (76-83) focused on more personal stories and IIRC was the one that had Speedy on drugs. ;) Which btw I think we should definitely keep and have J'onn as apart of that storyline (along w/ Canary and Ollie, of course).
I had the impression the Speedy story was well before that.:eek:

If it's up to me, I'd butterfly any "kid sidekick". (Never a fan of the idea, except for Rick Jones, & that was more a "dual identity" with CM.) I wouldn't change the story too much, with that proviso. I'd want to do it sooner, if possible.
RandomIdeaGuy said:
Re: Dick, interestingly enough he was recruited by Speedy (then Arsenal) to join the early '00s version of the Outsiders. Hence why I thought to put Green Arrow on the '80s team. Also looking forward to that TNT series - hope it doesn't suck!
Yeah, here's hoping.

As for when, if things went as I'd foresee, we'd get a J'onn/Manhunter spinoff book (one title or the other; possibly both in the long run, per Luke Cage:p) from Detective (unless he was in JLA at the time?) which lives long enough to see a teamup with Ollie, & which spawns (or intersects with) an Outsiders book. (I'm in no way qualified to say when that happens.:eek:)
RandomIdeaGuy said:
With J'onn's powers, what exactly are they? I definitely think the shapeshifting and telepathy are both keepers. Flight's probably not necessary and maybe only a modicum of super-strength (say, more than Ollie but much less than Superman).
If he's got others, I'm unaware of them. I understood his strength & invulnerability were on par with Supes, which makes a partner a bit pointless...:eek: I'd drastically reduce those; strength about 2-3x Captain America, invulnerability on a scale with Luke Cage (or somebody); maybe limit the telepathy & shapeshifting a bit (only so many times a day?), & make the telepathy a bit harder (otherwise, it makes him a bit omniscient).

It's the same thing that makes Thor a problem in Avengers: he's got more power than all of them combined; what does he need them for? Supes, too. It's worse when your teammate is a guy with arrows.:p (It's the same kind of thing you get with Flash or Quicksilver: how to you beat a guy that's so fast?)
RandomIdeaGuy said:
A quick google search reveals that Stewart was created in '71 by the O'Neil/Adams team that was doing Lantern/Arrow at the time. I think maybe with declining sales they might have Stewart as the sole Lantern instead of "back-up Lantern" (WTF does that even mean?).
You got me beat.:rolleyes: My suspicion is, tho, being black, he's never going to get headline billing until the country, & DC, are really, really ready. Cage didn't do well. Neither, AFAIK, did T'Challa. Neither were taking on an ID with so much history. (Maybe that would help carry the character through the switch...but IMO it works against it happening.) That said, if somebody at DC says (like the "kill Supes" call) "What the hell, why not?"...

OTOH, when did the GL Corps actually gain popularity? I was never a fan (nor DC fan enough to know), but my sense was that was a quite late addition to the book: it existed, but was never (or almost never) actually seen until into the '80s. If it happens sooner (for whatever reason), it might be the reason to advance Stewart--"push" GLC, then drop or kill Hal.

Which is, perhaps, another thread...;)
 
Re: The powers, maybe his telepathy is limited to "reading emotions". So he can go "you're nervous" and it still involves Detective work. If he stays true to his John Jones day then I agree I could see him headlining like Batwoman is doing now.

With T'Challa, he had one run that was very very well written. Maybe that writer could crossover to DC to write a John Stewart title? I'll look it up EDIT: Chris Priest. He wrote T'Challa as more of a guile hero a style which I think might make GL interesting again. And he's proven he can write a black character sensibly.
 
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IOTL the Lantern/Arrow series IIRC ran 14 (!) issues before being cancelled around '73, then was revived in '76 and continued into '83 (roughly around the time the Outsiders were created). The first run was the one that focused on social issues, while the second run (76-83) focused on more personal stories and IIRC was the one that had Speedy on drugs. ;) Which btw I think we should definitely keep and have J'onn as apart of that storyline (along w/ Canary and Ollie, of course).
Close. The first issue to have the on-page title Green Lantern/Green Arrow was actually Green Lantern v2 #76, from April 1970. The indicia doesn't reflect the title change, however (it remains Green Lantern). The Speedy-on-drugs story is in issues #85 and 86, published in August and October 1971 (it was a bimonthly book at that point). There's one more issue after that (cover date December 1971)... then nothing until issue #88 in March 1972, which completely omits Green Arrow from both the book title and the included stories. The next issue (#89) hits the following month, brings back Green Arrow, and is the last issue until September 1976.

When the series returns with #90, it drops the social conscience aspect. Actually, a number of issues aren't even proper team-up stories in the first place, but anthology books where Green Lantern gets story A and Green Arrow gets story B. It's also a mostly forgotten era: a lot of it is about neither of the two title characters, but rather a legacy hero from the Golden Age named Air Wave, who, it is revealed, is the cousin of and has the same name as Green Lantern (Hal Jordan). It also features some truly forgettable villains, like the Crumbler (who has a glove that... makes things crumble), Professor Ojo (the man with the world's goofiest prosthetic eyewear), and El Espectro (a Spanish conquistador who survived several centuries submerged in the fountain of youth). In any case, the series continued until issue #122 in November 1979. The following issue it reverted to the original Green Lantern title and continued being published monthly until issue #200 in May 1986. After that it was retitled Green Lantern Corps and lasted another two years, finally getting cancelled with issue #224 in May 1988.

After Green Lantern/Green Arrow #122, Green Arrow gets a very brief solo backup feature in World's Finest in issues #258 and 259, before basically disappearing as a title character (although he continues to appear in team books like Justice League of America) for the better part of a decade. He gets a quasi-reboot in 1987 by writer/artist Mike Grell in his miniseries The Longbow Hunters, which lead in to the second ongoing Green Arrow series in 1988. This isn't a full reboot, since it respects what came before, but definitely casts the character in a different light. Grell specifically avoids showing any superpowered characters or supernatural elements in the book, and it crosses over with other DC titles fairly rarely. Green Lantern, meanwhile, starts showing up in Action Comics Weekly after his book is cancelled in 1988, and sticks it out there until it's cancelled after almost a year. At that point, Green Lantern v3 starts up, and Hal Jordan remains a starring character in that through the early 1990s.

There is a brief Green Lantern/Green Arrow limited series that runs through 1983 and into 1984, but it doesn't contain any new content. It's just a selective reprint of the 1970-1972 run, the so-called "hard traveling heroes" era.

A quick google search reveals that Stewart was created in '71 by the O'Neil/Adams team that was doing Lantern/Arrow at the time. I think maybe with declining sales they might have Stewart as the sole Lantern instead of "back-up Lantern" (WTF does that even mean?).
Yep. Stewart's first appearance is actually the next issue following the Speedy-on-drugs two parter. He's very much part of the social conscience of the era, and if you get rid of the Green Lantern/Green Arrow run, I doubt he gets introduced at all. Heck, I'm not actually sure what happens to Green Lantern at all if you replace GL/GA with MM/GA. I doubt they'd let him keep his solo book, so it's likely he goes through a similar "supporting character only" phase like Green Arrow did in the 1980s OTL.
 
RandomIdeaGuy said:
Re: The powers, maybe his telepathy is limited to "reading emotions". So he can go "you're nervous" and it still involves Detective work. If he stays true to his John Jones day then I agree I could see him headlining like Batwoman is doing now.
Here's the thing: if he's being "rebooted", it's not essential his powers remain the same, so long as he keeps the interesting aspects. For me, the Martian is the essential; everything else can be bent in service of making that work. In a "pure superhero" book, writers will want to "go big"; if he's more detective, & I like that (& I get the feeling you do, too), then "less is more". So whatever needs doing to put him more closely on par with Ollie, without completely throwing out telepathy or shapeshifting or super-strength, I'd do; whether we could find a writer who'd go that way... I can see Grell doing it (see below); before that... If I could pick anybody at all, I'd look for Tony Isabella or Rich Buckler, both (AFAIK) at Marvel in this period, if they've joined the comics game yet at all. Isabella's Tigra was really good (I keep wanting to call it Creature Features:p) & I absolutely loved Buckler's Deathlok (in Astonishing Tales).
RandomIdeaGuy said:
With T'Challa, he had one run that was very very well written. Maybe that writer could crossover to DC to write a John Stewart title? I'll look it up EDIT: Chris Priest. He wrote T'Challa as more of a guile hero a style which I think might make GL interesting again. And he's proven he can write a black character sensibly.
I've never read that; the Panther appearances I've seen, he was very much a supporting (minor) character. (Then again, Falcon was, too.:rolleyes:) If Priest can do it...:cool:
seancdaug said:
Close. The first issue to have the on-page title Green Lantern/Green Arrow was actually Green Lantern v2 #76, from April 1970. The indicia doesn't reflect the title change, however (it remains Green Lantern). The Speedy-on-drugs story is in issues #85 and 86, published in August and October 1971 (it was a bimonthly book at that point).
That fits my recollection of it being roughly contemporary with the Spidey drug story, too--& it predates when I started (off & on) reading it, around the time the Spidermobile was introduced. ("Aaargh! I'm old!:p)
seancdaug said:
There's one more issue after that (cover date December 1971)... then nothing until issue #88 in March 1972, which completely omits Green Arrow from both the book title and the included stories. The next issue (#89) hits the following month, brings back Green Arrow, and is the last issue until September 1976.
Judging by that, pairing Ollie with somebody else couldn't hurt much...
seancdaug said:
When the series returns with #90, it drops the social conscience aspect.
OTOH...maybe it won't sell at all...:eek::eek::eek:
seancdaug said:
After that it was retitled Green Lantern Corps and lasted another two years
Have you looked at the sales figures on the book at all? (Did you collect them then? There should be one issue a year that would have a summary of sales for the year inside somewhere, based on what was put in my Marvel titles.) Or at why it became GLC?
seancdaug said:
He gets a quasi-reboot in 1987 by writer/artist Mike Grell in his miniseries The Longbow Hunters, which lead in to the second ongoing Green Arrow series in 1988.
And if I was to pick my writer-artist for the era to do this, Grell would be it.:cool::cool: His Sable is exceptional. Plus he can do the kind of subtle humor I really like.
seancdaug said:
Yep. Stewart's first appearance is actually the next issue following the Speedy-on-drugs two parter. He's very much part of the social conscience of the era, and if you get rid of the Green Lantern/Green Arrow run, I doubt he gets introduced at all. Heck, I'm not actually sure what happens to Green Lantern at all if you replace GL/GA with MM/GA. I doubt they'd let him keep his solo book, so it's likely he goes through a similar "supporting character only" phase like Green Arrow did in the 1980s OTL.
You think Hal disappears & GL gets cancelled?:eek: I'd never have expected a character I'm so familiar with to be so near vanishing... Hell, he's one of a handful of DC heroes I can actually name.:p (Yeah, okay, not counting TNT; I read those.;))
 
Maybe an alternate Watchmen that includes pre-existing DC characters could give him a boost? Try this one for size:

Doctor Manhattan: Martian Manhunter
Nite Owl I & II: Doctor Fate
Silk Specter I & II: Liberty Belle?
Ozymandias: Mr. Terrific
Comedian: The Original Atom?
Rorshach: Sandman?

They made new characters because the story "makes them unusable". But maybe if they use characters that they do not think sell well and they would like to remove them? This is if we presume that J'onn has to have at least one or two periods where he is not popular, even if he is "socially relevant" as you ask for.

Bonus points for Watchmen making the characters relevant again instead of being the send-off DC intends, thus forcing them to bring them back into continuity in Zero Hour (1994).

Plus, I like the idea of a Watchmen analogue using Golden Age Justice Society characters :D:cool:
 
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RandomIdeaGuy said:
Maybe an alternate Watchmen that includes pre-existing DC characters could give him a boost? Try this one for size:

Doctor Manhattan: Martian Manhunter
Nite Owl I & II: Doctor Fate
Silk Specter I & II: Liberty Belle?
Ozymandias: Mr. Terrific
Comedian: The Original Atom?
Rorshach: Sandman?

They made new characters because the story "makes them unusable". But maybe if they use characters that they do not think sell well and they would like to remove them? This is if we presume that J'onn has to have at least one or two periods where he is not popular, even if he is "socially relevant" as you ask for.

Bonus points for Watchmen making the characters relevant again instead of being the send-off DC intends, thus forcing them to bring them back into continuity in Zero Hour (1994).

Plus, I like the idea of a Watchmen analogue using Golden Age Justice Society characters :D:cool:
AIU you, you mean to subvert Moore's aim somewhat...which I'm not sure I'd want.:eek: (Also, is Moore still writing? And what happens when DC buys the Charlton characters (which seems kind of tailor-made for this kind of story)?

That said, it could work. I agree, an analog with the GA JSA has a serious cool factor.:cool: Given the number of alt-Earths at DC:rolleyes:...this could be in any number of them. If you do it right, you may simplify some of the chaos of Crisis (if it still happens).

However...I have real trouble with J'onn going along with *Oz's scheme at the end, especially if it means killing *Rorschach.:eek: Maybe a mindwipe or a "memory restructuring"?

I don't see Dr. Fate as in a Nite Owl-ish role...& I really can't picture anybody but Bats as a Rorschach analog.;) (Yeah, I can see how that's a problem.:p)

With a bit of wikisearch, tho,:p I see there are two possible subs, both next to perfect: Ted Kord & Mr. A (providing the story happens after the late '70s).

My sole objection to doing this is, it risks killing a book (if it goes the way I hope) would be one I'd really like.:eek:

One other thing I should mention, in re the J'onn & Ollie book: it offers a chance to showcase Canary as a true equal.:cool::cool: I can't see J'onn accepting her being "2d rate", tho it does require the writers doing it...:rolleyes: It also does require the fans accepting it... By the time this happens, tho, I expect there'd be more of them in their teens & 20s, rather than 10yr-old girl haters.:rolleyes:
 
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First, the IRL PODs that could cause this - best scenario is some other writer gets put on GL, and O'Niell/Adams rework idea for a new Manhunter back-up or the lead in an anthology. As a side note maybe this other GL writer (a sci-fi writer per the Asimov suggestion earlier) expands on the GL Corp mythology much earlier than IOTL. As noted there might not be a John Stewart, but there would still be a Guy as he predates their run. John could still happen, but in a very different form, in MM/GL. Though if GL was still faced with cancellation later on they could convince DC to let them introduce a black GL to revive interest in the book as suggested.

Per J'Onn's powers, depowering might not even have to be saved for a post-Crisis reboot. While I know a decent bit about DC my knowledge isn't perfect (despite devouring Who's Who back-issues after I got into comics, but that was almost 30 years ago), so I was surprised to learn he wasn't the last Martian pre-Crisis and during the time we're discussing he left to reunite with his people on New Mars (I guess their attempt to reconcile prior depiction of a thriving red planet vs reality). Anyway, there could be a storyline setting this up in JLA or the aforementioned anthology with some evil aliens attacking New Mars, depowering J'Onn and his people (no flight, invulnerability, telekineses, optic blasts, reduced strength, and to make the below premise work his telepathy could be busted down to empathy as was suggested). He manages to escape to Earth to get the League's help, but by the time he gets back they've been wiped out. He now only has Earth, but rejects a return to full-time Leaguer status to grieve.

As for the actual story, the original set-up works as well if not better with him than Hal. J'Onn helps the cops because he used to be one and no longer having telepathy can't discern the truth (the emotions he senses - fear from the perp, anger from the cops - wouldn't be unusual in his experience). The public turns on him telling him what was really going down. Ollie is less hard on him than he was Hal due to J'Onn's alien nature and his recent tragedy, offering to help him understand the world better.

No matter what, though, my limited research plus what's been said makes me doubt this will go over sales-wise better than IOTL - I guess no matter the fan love & acclaim the mass audience just couldn't accept that DC had some books equally as good if not better than Marvel's at the time. But I see no reason the suggested changes to Outsiders, which I really like, couldn't still happen. Though I almost hate to lose the earliest incident that I know of of a bunch of people telling Batman he's a jerk re: when the Outsiders told him to take a hike. :D
 
Finn Morgendorffer said:
First, the IRL PODs that could cause this - best scenario is some other writer gets put on GL, and O'Niell/Adams rework idea for a new Manhunter back-up or the lead in an anthology. As a side note maybe this other GL writer (a sci-fi writer per the Asimov suggestion earlier) expands on the GL Corp mythology much earlier than IOTL.
Both work fine for me. (Tho never a GL/GLC fan. Someday, maybe somebody will explain how GL's deadliest villain could be a guy dressed in yellow paper with a yellow baseball bat.:p)
Finn Morgendorffer said:
there would still be a Guy
:eek::eek::(:(:(:(:p
Finn Morgendorffer said:
First if GL was still faced with cancellation later on they could convince DC to let them introduce a black GL to revive interest in the book as suggested.
If it saves the book:cool::cool:
Finn Morgendorffer said:
Per J'Onn's powers, depowering might not even have to be saved for a post-Crisis reboot.
I've been presuming that has to happen before the "new J'onn" book, or the Ollie teamup, happens.
Finn Morgendorffer said:
While I know a decent bit about DC my knowledge isn't perfect (despite devouring Who's Who back-issues after I got into comics, but that was almost 30 years ago), so I was surprised to learn he wasn't the last Martian pre-Crisis and during the time we're discussing he left to reunite with his people on New Mars (I guess their attempt to reconcile prior depiction of a thriving red planet vs reality). Anyway, there could be a storyline setting this up in JLA or the aforementioned anthology with some evil aliens attacking New Mars, depowering J'Onn and his people (no flight, invulnerability, telekineses, optic blasts, reduced strength, and to make the below premise work his telepathy could be busted down to empathy as was suggested). He manages to escape to Earth to get the League's help, but by the time he gets back they've been wiped out. He now only has Earth, but rejects a return to full-time Leaguer status to grieve.
When the "New Mars"/"not the last" revelation (or "retcon") happens is the big question for me. I don't think him being last is essential; my sense is, this was done so they could write him out without killing him off. If the teamup with Ollie is successful enough to keep the book afloat, I'd guess this never even happens. If it still does, it works as a lead, as you suggest, & I'd happily keep it.:cool: (Except one thing: I've never got the sense Ollie's the sensitive type.:p Maybe it's Dinah, telling him to be less of an a*hole?:p {"Geez, Ollie, his whole species has been wiped out! Give the man a break."})
Finn Morgendorffer said:
No matter what, though, my limited research plus what's been said makes me doubt this will go over sales-wise better than IOTL - I guess no matter the fan love & acclaim the mass audience just couldn't accept that DC had some books equally as good if not better than Marvel's at the time.
IMO, DC books suffered from two problems. The characters, generally, were less "human" or "real" than Marvel's, & the one-issue, non-continuing stories limited the ability to tell really involving tales. Now, IDK if that was a DC policy & it would need to be rewritten, or if it was just a custom. If it was just custom (which TNT suggests; but that's rather later...), it could get changed in the '60s ('68-9? Earlier if possible), when (I propose) the "new Manhunter" & the Manunuter & Archer books debut.

Could this actually move DC in the direction of multi-issue & more involved stories?:cool:
Finn Morgendorffer said:
But I see no reason the suggested changes to Outsiders, which I really like, couldn't still happen. Though I almost hate to lose the earliest incident that I know of of a bunch of people telling Batman he's a jerk re: when the Outsiders told him to take a hike. :D
:D:cool: I never read Outsiders beyond a couple of ish, but yeah... I got a real kick out of Dick in the Titans crossover, tho: "I know more about their personalities than you & I know more about running a team than you." :)cool::p)
 

Tovarich

Banned
I don't see Dr. Fate as in a Nite Owl-ish role...& I really can't picture anybody but Bats as a Rorschach analog.;) (Yeah, I can see how that's a problem.:p)

With a bit of wikisearch, tho,:p I see there are two possible subs, both next to perfect: Ted Kord & Mr. A (providing the story happens after the late '70s).
Ted Kord/Nite Owl would work because Nite Owl was originally going to be Blue Beetle.

No way for Mr A/Rorschach, though.
Steve Ditko still owns the rights to Mr A, and he loathes Rorschach with a passion.
 
Maybe J'onn could tell off Batman while in the Outsiders? Could be a good way to show his character development from his time with Ollie.

"A Martian's got more heart than you, Bruce." :D
 
Tovarich said:
Ted Kord/Nite Owl would work because Nite Owl was originally going to be Blue Beetle.
I knew there was a relationship, which is why I suggest it.
Tovarich said:
No way for Mr A/Rorschach, though.
Steve Ditko still owns the rights to Mr A, and he loathes Rorschach with a passion.
I don't say Mr A is treated the same way, only that he fills the same role. It does depend on what the story outcome is, & if Ditko allows DC to use him anyhow. If he won't, an analog can be created--& we get *Rorshach anyhow.
RandomIdeaGuy said:
Maybe J'onn could tell off Batman while in the Outsiders? Could be a good way to show his character development from his time with Ollie.

"A Martian's got more heart than you, Bruce." :D
:p

I think anything J'onn does to get a riff off Bats is a good thing.

Could go the other way, too: "Bruce, you're so cold & angry, you could be a Martian." (Naturally, Bruce takes it as a compliment...:p)
 
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