Make Japan a Dutch colony

That would still make Java just as densely populated and in terms of technology and infrastructure, no Japanese architectural complex rivals the large palaces and temples like Borobodur. That and it never formed any thalassocratic empire of the kinds Java formed, which puts Javanese naval technology and military capacity arguably above that of Japan as well.

It still took the sustained effort of centuries to secure Java directly under the control of Batavia. Something that the Dutchmen do not have for the far-flung land of Zipang. Much easier to trade exotics from Japan than to subjugate it.
 

Maoistic

Banned
And they outnumber the Dutch at least 10 to 1. And Japan is a single united polity. The first Dutch contact was in 1609. By that time, the Tokugawa had secured control of all Japan, though they had to fight one last campaign in 1614-1615.

And it was the Dutch who helped in that campaign (see Adam Clulow's The Company and the Shogun: The Dutch Encounter with Tokugawa Japan pp. 101-102).


Essentially, the AHC is for the Netherlands to conquer a nation 10 times its size and a year's travel away.
The Dutch could fight Spain and captured some of its colonies, and conquered half the provinces of Brazil from Portugal. They also created a global empire in three continents and were capable of waging war in all said continents at the same time. Meanwhile, Japan couldn't even conquer Korea during the Imjin War and decided to back the hell away from Southeast Asia when it saw that Europeans were kicking the living hell out of wokuo pirates. Size in this case has proven to not be all that important after all.

Then of course there's the fact that Portugal beforehand had conquered and colonised a sizeable amount of Hindustan, consisting of Goa, several posts in and around Kerala, Sri Lanka and Malacca. All despite Portugal's diminutive size.
 

Maoistic

Banned
It still took the sustained effort of centuries to secure Java directly under the control of Batavia. Something that the Dutchmen do not have for the far-flung land of Zipang. Much easier to trade exotics from Japan than to subjugate it.
More to do with inter-European fighting than anything else. No one here is going to say that the Mughal Empire and various Indian polities that had been virtually subjugated by the Battle of Plassey in the mid 18th century, even if they retained nominal independence, is weaker than Java and the Indonesian states that the Dutch - supposedly, when the Dutch had already obtained virtual control of much if not most of Indonesia by the end of the 17th century - didn't conquer and completely colonise until the 19th century.
 
More to do with inter-European fighting than anything else. No one here is going to say that the Mughal Empire and various Indian polities that had been virtually subjugated by the Battle of Plassey in the mid 18th century, even if they retained nominal independence, is weaker than Java and the Indonesian states that the Dutch - supposedly, when the Dutch had already obtained virtual control of much if not most of Indonesia by the end of the 17th century - didn't conquer and completely colonise until the 19th century.

You can't detach one factor from the other. If the Dutchmen don't have the ability to colonize efficiently and immediately the areas they actually want to colonize and invest in, what more the temperate place that you need to pass through Spanish territory to get to?
 
India, anybody?

Yea while it would be very difficult, I think that just saying "no" isn't the correct answer. The biggest obstacle seems to be Japan's political unity which allowed them to bring forces to bear that make a European colony there an unprofitable enterprise. However, if Japan was to not be united or experience a period of extended civil war I think that the opportunity for European encroachment rises significantly.
 
Yea while it would be very difficult, I think that just saying "no" isn't the correct answer. The biggest obstacle seems to be Japan's political unity which allowed them to bring forces to bear that make a European colony there an unprofitable enterprise. However, if Japan was to not be united or experience a period of extended civil war I think that the opportunity for European encroachment rises significantly.

There's also the fact that Japan just dosent produce an exportable/extractable of sufficiently high profit margin and in large enough to produce the kinds of high profits one sees in similar efforts in Inidia, Indonesia, ect. in addition to the higher costs which make it unprofitable. That's a harder limit to get around
 
Three? Europe, Africa, Asia, South America, North America, that's five.
  • Europe: They're from there so...
  • Africa: that was basically a port and not much else.
  • Asia: gotta give it you there although I am pretty sure it took them until the 19th century to fully subjugate the place.
  • South America : I'd say that was 1/4th of Brazil and they lost it eventually only possessing a sliver of South America.
  • North America: They list that too, and only had a couple (very profitable and brutal) islands left.
I mean I could visit a single city for about a day each in every continent , and I would still be able to say that I went to all of the world's continents.
 
Apologies for the word count, and if this is a wall of text.

-No vassal with the Portuguese
-When he was armed by the Portuguese, promoted Christianity and had had Portuguese retainers left and right, including an African ex-slave which shows the extent of Portuguese influence over Nobunaga.

Also, those "trade relations" included the enslaving of thousands of Japanese as if they were Africans. Nagasaki was basically a slave post comparable to those in West Africa which the Japanese were unable to terminate.

No, Yasuke was the only foreign retainer Nobunaga appeared to have had. Yasuke entered Nobunaga's service in 1581, a less than a year before Nobunaga would be forced to commit suicide. Again none of that means influence over Nobunaga. Guns would mass produced by the Japanese, Christianity only really made inroads into Kyushu, where coincidentally enough where the trading of Japanese slaves of seems to probably be given it was done by the Portuguese as well there is the hardly any information on where it took exactly. Nobunaga only backed Christianity as a way to weaken his enemies the Ikko Ikki, who themselves were only a localized threat.

As for why it was not terminated, at least until 1587, the nearby land was controlled of Nagasaki by the friendly Omura clan, a minor clan in the Hizen province, who were never attacked by a rival dead set on eliminating them. If Ryuzoji Takanobu had bothered he could have forced the Portuguese out. Afterall the same thing had happened to the Ouchi clan after they were defeated by the Mori, the Portuguese were forced out of Yamaguchi. The Portuguese slave trade had ended in 1587 after Hideyoshi managed to finally take Kyushu where most of the coastal Christian daimyo were. Granted there is very little info on the slave trade and where it mainly took place, but chances are it would be in northern Kyushu because of both the Christian daimyo and there are weak enough clans who would find it valuable.

I'm not so sure about your knowledge of the later Sengoku period, slavery in Japan did not mean a strong Portuguese influence when Portuguese contact with the various Japanese daimyo would be limited, and some might not have even held an entire province, or even had the same situation. The slave trade was only valuable for certain goods for clans, to ever reach Honshu given the power dynamics of the region, the Mori wouldn't need it and weren't friendly to Catholics, the Ouchi before them wasn't that war oriented to need to trade with them, the Miyoshi were strong enough as it is. All that would leave are a minor few clans in Kyushu and maybe Shikoku.

Sure, colonising the large enclave of Nagasaki, enslaving thousands of Japanese, arming their warlords, participating in their wars, forcing them to use their labour force is barely any influence at all.

You are really overplaying foreign influence in Japan. First and foremost the slave trades seems to be minor considering Portuguese influence in Japan was largely limited to Kyushu and until 1557, Western Chugoku, namely the Nagato Province. Second, after the initial purchases of weapons, the Japanese, like the Native Americans began developing and using their own guns. Portuguese participation in the Sengoku period is very, very limited to the northernmost parts of Kyushu. If we are applying the last one to the Dutch, you really need to elaborate on how the Dutch from a small outpost in Nagasaki is going to force an entire country into producing copper for them? From what I'm reading from the same source the Japanese appear to just ramped up their production with no coercion at all, and even managed to scale it back going towards developing its own tradition of buillionism, which saw Japan melt down more metals for coinage, and placing more value on metal coins again.

Your gonna have to cite these in bold two. There is naval one bombardment by a Portuguese ship that is both and minor and might not have even happened. Two taking a look at the list of Japanese copper mines there are hardly within the immediate vicinity of Hizen province where Nagasaki is. How are the Dutch forcing the Japanese to use their labor from a small outpost in a bigger city, especially where there are no copper mines in the immediate vicinity of Nagasaki or even the Hizen Province where it was located?

For scale, this is a Map with divisions of Japan up to the Meiji era province reformation, Island Provinces are in black, that small red dot is where Dejima would be, not even all of Nagasaki, but the Dutch enclave there, give or take a few pixels for visibility. So forgive me if I do not buy the European ability to influence and control Japan, from just one of many port cities and a relatively new one a that, that doesn't have the benefit of being built over a well-established place like Osaka or Edo.

Dejima.png




The Portuguese and Dutch had far more influence than you think and it is indeed something that can be categorised as semi-colonial given the high level of exploitation and influence they both had. The fact that the Japanese needed the US to take out the Dutch for good shows how powerless were the Japanese in general against them. And again, I will repeat that the reverse wasn't true. The Japanese didn't land ships in Dutch ports nor did they exploit Dutch labour force, much less participate in wars in Dutch territory.

Whether or not the Japanese did either of what you claim the Dutch did does not matter to the claim of the Dutch exploited the Japanese, and that Japan was basically a semi-colony.

Again, how did the Dutch in particular exploit the Japanese that would give them control over their resources which the Dutch could not do without troops or the ability to and put serious pressure on the Edo government? Exploitation requires control over a government, that the Dutch simply did not have.

If you want an example of exploitation, the Soviet Union exploited Mongolia for its cattle. How? By taking most of it at an unfavorable exchange rate to be slaughtered while the Mongolians hardly got anything in return. This exploitation was accomplished because of military and political force that the Mongolians could not hope to beat or had no other alternative than to accept it, especially since Communist Mongolia depended on the Soviet Union for survival. If you really want an example of a true Semi-colony look at Soviet Xinjiang a state solely propped up for the Soviet Union to seize resources and carve out more influence in China.

If the Dutch did something where it is clearly unfavorable to the Japanese and they get more out it because they have overwhelming to do so, then it is exploitative, like the examples above. If not, then you are making baseless conjectures on the scope of European influence and capabilities in Japan, how Japan of the Tokugawa era operated, and on Dutch-Japanese relations, and so I do not see any proof that the Dutch were able exploit Japan for copper production. All of that seems to be the Japanese on their own.

You cannot say that Dutch aid in the Shimabara rebellion was some substantial thing without proof. Just because the castle fell a month after two weeks of Dutch aid does not mean that the Dutch were the decisive factor in ending the rebellion. Especially when the rebels were already forced into that castle relatively quickly after the rebelleon. The only reason the Dutch gained a monopoly is that Catholicism and by extension Portuguese where seen as too much trouble. After all, Hidetada would have known from his father Ieyasu the problem of popular religious movements being a threat, like the Ikko Ikki of the Jodo Shinshu school of Buddhism.

It still won't matter if you have a piece of lead in you. And the Japanese sword is gonna be the Lambo in this situation, with Katanas designed to strike quickly and European Longswords designed to last longer and etc in a fight. Plus, it also doesn't change the fact that ultimately Europe could just play local Daimyo against each other until they've reached a level of control that essentially meant that they could call it a colony, in the same way the British Raj was. And I mean, really, the biggest problem is gonna be the fact that most of what can be found in Japan can be found cheaper and easier closer to Europe, but if you have, say, Portugal establish a bigger base in Asia (Luso-Dutch war goes more in Portugal's favor?) while still not being able to quite hold the same riches England or the Netherlands or Spain has, so the incentive is there to colonize Japan.

The Katana was basically the Japanese backup weapon, you would still have to deal with spears, polearms guns, bows, and possibly a heavy club, due to logistics your not going to see a lot of European troops unless they really prioritize banking on Portugal, Spain, or England not attacking. Playing Daimyo against each other is a risk because you have to be sure you are backing the right horse and that your backed daimyo does not become a threat. This is assuming his clan is not ruined by plenty of internal intrigues in the first place, or colossally screws up in a battle that sees the clan destroyed. Attempting to go screw with their vassals can basically backfire if they decide to kick you out This is assuming you actually get a province that is not really divided. Yet that requires a POD before the 1570's, anything later and you are out of luck, as all you have a regional powers that are soon to be beaten by the Oda.

That would still make Java just as densely populated and in terms of technology and infrastructure, no Japanese architectural complex rivals the large palaces and temples like Borobodur. That and it never formed any thalassocratic empire of the kinds Java formed, which puts Javanese naval technology and military capacity arguably above that of Japan as well.

I can agree with the part of why bothering when other colonies were far closer and they were already exploiting Japanese manual labour extensively for the production of copper (they even made use of Japanese mercenaries in their other colonies) and for other commodities as well. More importantly, any invasion of Japan would have passed throughout English, Spanish and Portuguese territory in the Indian ocean, prompting wars with them. But if European rivals let military Dutch ships pass unopposed and the Dutch decided they wanted to conquer and colonise Japan, they certainly would have succeeded doing it in a decade or two at most.

Definitely agree with Javanese naval ability against Japanese, Fortification wise and military capability we have to disagree. You have plenty of Japanese Castles even with the demilitarization of Japan, some of which were quite considering a Daimyo could only have one. Also, there's still problem how does this campaign even happen, Starting from Dejima won't give them much headway as they still have to advance down plenty valleys as most of Japan is mountainous save Eastern Japan. Eastern Japan runs into another problem you are not going to run into that many important places in the east, especially in the northeast.

Any Dutch invasion would have to able to beat the Shogunate quickly, and there is a few problems with that. You have plenty of Daimyo who while they do not like being Tozama Daimyo, they are not going to fight against the Shogun just because they don't like him especially if the Dutch do not offer anything in the way of their status. Which raises another question how can the Dutch get enough information on Japan to be militarily worthwhile while largely limited to a small enclave?

Depending on how early the POD Japan still has plenty of veterans, and guns are still being made. It would not be a cake as a Colonial power would have to choose a good entry point then fight their way through a very mountainous area. Which to go back Aqua817's post, how does the Netherlands simply raise enough forces to conquer Japan, hold it, make it a colony? The Dutch have much bigger concerns, and what if an invasion of Japan goes south, not also have the Dutch ruined a monopoly, but possibly risk both their independence or their recently won colonial empire, depending on the date. So I guess disagreements with what is exploitation and European influence aside, it could be doable, the question is does it last and is it really worthwhile to go explore it?
 
What's with all these recent trends of projecting India on other Asian nation-states? First China and now Japan? I guess the next victim of this distortion would be Korea?
 
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