Make Japan a Dutch colony

Maoistic

Banned
With a parting point of the first time the Dutch arrive at Japan, can the Dutch colonise Japan by the end of the 17th century in a similar way to Batavia, Sri Lanka, or its Caribbean colonies?
 
With a parting point of the first time the Dutch arrive at Japan, can the Dutch colonise Japan by the end of the 17th century in a similar way to Batavia, Sri Lanka, or its Caribbean colonies?

No.

The Japanese are a highly advanced civilisation, not in any way comparable to the cultures of the Americas and Africa that were settled by Europeans in our timeline. They had sophisticated metallurgy, as well as a strong written culture, developed agriculture and large cities, advanced technology and the same resistance to disease as Europeans.

With all these factors, there was never a chance that any European power could colonize the area. Even the Dutch presence in Indonesia which you cite was ephemeral and consisted only of a few small strips of land until the 1820s. Their control was tenuous and many areas remained independent. It was not until the early 20th century that full control was achieved - but even this proved ephemeral as after 1942 it was lost and independence soon followed. Throughout the period, Dutch immigration to the area was miniscule and had no impact on the demographics of the area whatsoever.
 
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As much as people would like to believe otherwise in their Eurocentric world-view, Japan was practically just as technologically advanced as Europe was able to project halfway around the earth, and were ethnically/culturally unified enough (and geographically small/compact enough) that, even if from time to time seemed to fight among themselves whenever water was wet (about who was the top dog), they stood united (well, for a certain value of united, but certainly enough) to fight off everyone that wanted to interfere on their turf without their approval.

other than perhaps getting to snatching parts of Hokkaido, which itself was slowly colonized by Japan up through the 16-18th centuries, you'd need a massive plague to hit Japan a couple of years before an attempt with Europeans being immune to it ... and even then I'm doubting the longevity of the project
 
I find byzantine fanatics statement about civilization in the Americas to be insensitive and wrong. The Aztec capital Tenochtitlan had an estimated population of 2 to 300,000. It’s size was only comparable to Paris Constantinople and Venice. The City had a aqueduct system and its population of enjoyed washing it self regularly which is something not popular in Europe until the 18th century. They were able to create floating gardens full of crops and trees. The palace of one of the Aztec emperor’s even had a aquarium In it.
 
I find byzantine fanatics statement about civilization in the Americas to be insensitive and wrong. The Aztec capital Tenochtitlan had an estimated population of 2 to 300,000. It’s size was only comparable to Paris Constantinople and Venice. The City had a aqueduct system and its population of enjoyed washing it self regularly which is something not popular in Europe until the 18th century. They were able to create floating gardens full of crops and trees. The palace of one of the Aztec emperor’s even had a aquarium In it.
I agree, but can we please not whitewash them? They had human sacrifice and slavery, and were pretty tyrannical. I think it's possible to be more nuanced than to just say either "they were savages" or "they were civilized".

As for the Dutch colonizing Japan: lol. They would get curb-stomped if they were to land an army there.
 
The only way it could work is if the Dutch managed to either establish a strong presence and depending on the time we are talking about, you could have a very demilitarized Japan that the only difficulty would not be the initial battles but holding all the mostly mountainous land of the islands. It still would be a very questionable move to do, when there are bigger prizes.
 

Maoistic

Banned
I agree, but can we please not whitewash them? They had human sacrifice and slavery, and were pretty tyrannical. I think it's possible to be more nuanced than to just say either "they were savages" or "they were civilized".

As for the Dutch colonizing Japan: lol. They would get curb-stomped if they were to land an army there.

Which they did and proceeded to curbstomp the Shimabara rebellion, which the Shogunate apparently was incapable of doing.
 

Maoistic

Banned
Anyone thinking that Japan wasn't at least a kind of semi-colonial dependency of the Dutch should read Ryuto Shimada's The Intra-Asian Trade in Japanese Copper by the Dutch East India Company During the Eighteenth Century where he demonstrates how the Dutch were exporting from their colonial post in Nagasaki an average of 1 million pounds of Japanese copper every year by the 1650s, that average continuing well into the 18th century. The amount of mining exploitation in Japan to achieve this must have been tremendous and is comparable to the amount of exploitation in full colonies in America like Curacao, Aruba or Suriname.
 
Yes, but probably not before the late 19th century and probably not for long. As noted, Japan is very far away and maintained relative parity with Europe for quite sometime. Nevertheless, it is pretty clear that by the late 19th century Europe had a ridiculous military advantage over the rest of the world - except for Japan, which had successfully modernised. That modernisation however was mostly a political success, even if it was built off of certain long-term trends, and it quite easily could have backfired; it's not hard to think of a scenario where reactionaries and modernisers end up actually fighting a civil war, or perhaps certain regions attempt to break off. This creates perfect conditions for outside forces to intervene and establish some measure of colonial control over Japan. For this to be the Dutch probably requires a much earlier PoD - probably minimum no Belgian Revolution, if not earlier. But really all we're looking at is "reasonably powerful European state establishes (temporary) hegemony over Japan at the point in history that Europe had an unassailable military advantage". Perhaps this would only be to the extent of the Chinese coastal regions of OTL, but that still counts as "colonial domination". For it to last more than a few decades though would likely require a much, much earlier PoD...
 
Anyone thinking that Japan wasn't at least a kind of semi-colonial dependency of the Dutch should read Ryuto Shimada's The Intra-Asian Trade in Japanese Copper by the Dutch East India Company During the Eighteenth Century where he demonstrates how the Dutch were exporting from their colonial post in Nagasaki an average of 1 million pounds of Japanese copper every year by the 1650s, that average continuing well into the 18th century. The amount of mining exploitation in Japan to achieve this must have been tremendous and is comparable to the amount of exploitation in full colonies in America like Curacao, Aruba or Suriname.
That number seems rather high. And I do recall that the Japanese had limits on how much copper the Dutch could export, partially as they wanted to keep a steady supply so that the Dutch would stick around and keep bringing them silver and valuable items. Apparently for a few years the Dutch were exporting more than they were allowed, but when they asked if they could export even more the Japanese were a bit confused. Turns out some of the intermediaries hadn't told the Dutch about certain rules and limits, so the Japanese didn't punish them for it, though did lower the limit again. Anyways, the exploitation in the Americas involved people being used as forced labor. The Dutch here came to Japan and acted as middlemen. The Japanese did all the mining and made every decision involving the metal. There was no human trafficking on the part of the Dutch for this. Anyways, the Dutch really found everything (I am probably exaggerating) with the Japanese to be somewhat insulting and at times they wished to just leave, but times like the Napoleonic Wars made the profits they contributed to very important in rebuilding their homeland. Ahhhh, and we shouldn't forget how the Japanese had rules that everything the Dutch brought to trade had to be stored in a warehouse in Nagasaki, that the Japanese did the selling, and the Dutch were not allowed to take any of the stuff they brought back. Like with the Ryukyus, this was a way for the Satsuma to get control over valuable trade.
 
The only way it could work is if the Dutch managed to either establish a strong presence and depending on the time we are talking about, you could have a very demilitarized Japan that the only difficulty would not be the initial battles but holding all the mostly mountainous land of the islands. It still would be a very questionable move to do, when there are bigger prizes.

that's a oxymoron at any point in known history before WW2

India, anybody?

Had dozens of independent nations that didn't have any relation or loyalty towards any of the others, whereas Japan, at least in principle, was united underneath the Emperor (for all that he could be considered somewhat of a ceremonial cross between the Pope and HRE), with the majority of the internal fighting being a race to see who was the power beside the throne (and effectively had the Emperor in a gilded cage).

Also, something not often mentioned, but up until guns/cannons could be mass produced with any amount of industrialization, Japan had a larger number of them than just about any one in Europe
 
If the Christian population gets even bigger and you had a more religious focused Dutch policy, you could have the Dutch attempt at helping the Christian daimyos, although the divided between Catholic and Protestants would make this a bit harder, maybe a different reformation and an Habsburg Netherlands could pull this off, but it would be limited to the South to the islands of Kyushu and maybe, a big maybe, Shikoku. It wouldn't be a colony and not exactly a client state or protectorate either, but it would be a Dutch affiliated state.
 
nothing is in a vacuum, if there were more Christians, you can be certain that there would be a much more aggressive press against Christians, both inside the population, but equally so also foreigners, who'll have much less manoeuvrable space to interact
 
I agree, but can we please not whitewash them? They had human sacrifice and slavery, and were pretty tyrannical. I think it's possible to be more nuanced than to just say either "they were savages" or "they were civilized".

As for the Dutch colonizing Japan: lol. They would get curb-stomped if they were to land an army there.
I was only mentioning the accomplishments of the Aztecs I wasn’t even going to mention their culture by a technological standpoint they were Advanced despite not having metal tools,by a cultural standpoint they were a bunch of bloodthirsty monsters who believed they needed to sacrifice a certain number of people every day to prevent the sun from going out.
 
I was only mentioning the accomplishments of the Aztecs I wasn’t even going to mention their culture by a technological standpoint they were Advanced despite not having metal tools,by a cultural standpoint they were a bunch of bloodthirsty monsters who believed they needed to sacrifice a certain number of people every day to prevent the sun from going out.

Well, let's be fair: if your culture and those around it all practice blood sacrifice and legitimently beleive the gods needed sacrifices in order to have the strength to fight through the underworld each night to keep the world from dying, it's hard to grow up not believing the same


With a parting point of the first time the Dutch arrive at Japan, can the Dutch colonise Japan by the end of the 17th century in a similar way to Batavia, Sri Lanka, or its Caribbean colonies?

Operative phrase "Like Batavia, Sri Lanka": IE the Factories, regional naval dominance, near monopoly in the export trade of strategic/valuble resources and thus major leverage over local pontates? Sure; just break Shogunate centeralization, doll out support in the form of navy actions, distribution of weapons and other useful European goods (Like steel that's actual pure steel rather than volcanic sand that just covers up or spreads out it's numerous impurities), controlling access to the best fishing waters, ect. Of course, that's not reigning over Japan or even really subjugating it; merely profting from it and keeping it in a state to continue to do so. The question is though: what resource can they get out of their mercantile machinations from Japan that will produce a profit at the high expense of sustaining that colonial model?
 
If the Christian population gets even bigger and you had a more religious focused Dutch policy, you could have the Dutch attempt at helping the Christian daimyos, although the divided between Catholic and Protestants would make this a bit harder, maybe a different reformation and an Habsburg Netherlands could pull this off, but it would be limited to the South to the islands of Kyushu and maybe, a big maybe, Shikoku. It wouldn't be a colony and not exactly a client state or protectorate either, but it would be a Dutch affiliated state.
Most of the Japanese Christians were Catholics and the Dutch were Calvinist Protestants, heck they even helped suppress Shimabara
 
Most of the Japanese Christians were Catholics and the Dutch were Calvinist Protestants, heck they even helped suppress Shimabara
I think I said just that in my post, I think that making the Dutch stronger while having a more unified Christendom would allow the situation to be more in favour of a intervention or support from Europeans.

Does anyone have a good source listing the various Christian Daimyos?
 
nothing is in a vacuum, if there were more Christians, you can be certain that there would be a much more aggressive press against Christians, both inside the population, but equally so also foreigners, who'll have much less manoeuvrable space to interact

As Monter said, most Japanese Christians were Catholics. Which is one of the reasons the Dutchmen had a monopoly on Japanese trade: the Calvinists kept their faith to themselves.

I think I said just that in my post, I think that making the Dutch stronger while having a more unified Christendom would allow the situation to be more in favour of a intervention or support from Europeans.

You can't strengthen one (the Dutch) without weakening the other (the unity of Christendom). Europeans are not a monolithic bloc, what with the Lutherans, Calvinists, Universalists, and Catholics all bickering against one another. Heck, Catholic Christendom wasn't a unified camp: France allied with the Turks against the Habsburgs who were ostensibly the protectors of the Faith. :p
 
As Monter said, most Japanese Christians were Catholics. Which is one of the reasons the Dutchmen had a monopoly on Japanese trade: the Calvinists kept their faith to themselves.



You can't strengthen one (the Dutch) without weakening the other (the unity of Christendom). Europeans are not a monolithic bloc, what with the Lutherans, Calvinists, Universalists, and Catholics all bickering against one another. Heck, Catholic Christendom wasn't a unified camp: France allied with the Turks against the Habsburgs who were ostensibly the protectors of the Faith. :p
Dude you can, the Dutch existed before the Reformation and the reformation didn't have to end like it did IOTL, with a early 16th century POD you could have for example an Habsburg Netherlands and a reformation that doesn't end like IOTL, with more moderation, less strife etc.

Bringing up inter-denominational strife is kinda off-topic because we were talking about the religion of the Japanese minorities, not of the Europeans. I don't think it would matter whether the Christians in Japan were convered by the Portoguese or Dutch if they are both Catholic or of the same church.
 
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