With a parting point of the first time the Dutch arrive at Japan, can the Dutch colonise Japan by the end of the 17th century in a similar way to Batavia, Sri Lanka, or its Caribbean colonies?
I agree, but can we please not whitewash them? They had human sacrifice and slavery, and were pretty tyrannical. I think it's possible to be more nuanced than to just say either "they were savages" or "they were civilized".I find byzantine fanatics statement about civilization in the Americas to be insensitive and wrong. The Aztec capital Tenochtitlan had an estimated population of 2 to 300,000. It’s size was only comparable to Paris Constantinople and Venice. The City had a aqueduct system and its population of enjoyed washing it self regularly which is something not popular in Europe until the 18th century. They were able to create floating gardens full of crops and trees. The palace of one of the Aztec emperor’s even had a aquarium In it.
I agree, but can we please not whitewash them? They had human sacrifice and slavery, and were pretty tyrannical. I think it's possible to be more nuanced than to just say either "they were savages" or "they were civilized".
As for the Dutch colonizing Japan: lol. They would get curb-stomped if they were to land an army there.
That number seems rather high. And I do recall that the Japanese had limits on how much copper the Dutch could export, partially as they wanted to keep a steady supply so that the Dutch would stick around and keep bringing them silver and valuable items. Apparently for a few years the Dutch were exporting more than they were allowed, but when they asked if they could export even more the Japanese were a bit confused. Turns out some of the intermediaries hadn't told the Dutch about certain rules and limits, so the Japanese didn't punish them for it, though did lower the limit again. Anyways, the exploitation in the Americas involved people being used as forced labor. The Dutch here came to Japan and acted as middlemen. The Japanese did all the mining and made every decision involving the metal. There was no human trafficking on the part of the Dutch for this. Anyways, the Dutch really found everything (I am probably exaggerating) with the Japanese to be somewhat insulting and at times they wished to just leave, but times like the Napoleonic Wars made the profits they contributed to very important in rebuilding their homeland. Ahhhh, and we shouldn't forget how the Japanese had rules that everything the Dutch brought to trade had to be stored in a warehouse in Nagasaki, that the Japanese did the selling, and the Dutch were not allowed to take any of the stuff they brought back. Like with the Ryukyus, this was a way for the Satsuma to get control over valuable trade.Anyone thinking that Japan wasn't at least a kind of semi-colonial dependency of the Dutch should read Ryuto Shimada's The Intra-Asian Trade in Japanese Copper by the Dutch East India Company During the Eighteenth Century where he demonstrates how the Dutch were exporting from their colonial post in Nagasaki an average of 1 million pounds of Japanese copper every year by the 1650s, that average continuing well into the 18th century. The amount of mining exploitation in Japan to achieve this must have been tremendous and is comparable to the amount of exploitation in full colonies in America like Curacao, Aruba or Suriname.
The only way it could work is if the Dutch managed to either establish a strong presence and depending on the time we are talking about, you could have a very demilitarized Japan that the only difficulty would not be the initial battles but holding all the mostly mountainous land of the islands. It still would be a very questionable move to do, when there are bigger prizes.
India, anybody?
I was only mentioning the accomplishments of the Aztecs I wasn’t even going to mention their culture by a technological standpoint they were Advanced despite not having metal tools,by a cultural standpoint they were a bunch of bloodthirsty monsters who believed they needed to sacrifice a certain number of people every day to prevent the sun from going out.I agree, but can we please not whitewash them? They had human sacrifice and slavery, and were pretty tyrannical. I think it's possible to be more nuanced than to just say either "they were savages" or "they were civilized".
As for the Dutch colonizing Japan: lol. They would get curb-stomped if they were to land an army there.
I was only mentioning the accomplishments of the Aztecs I wasn’t even going to mention their culture by a technological standpoint they were Advanced despite not having metal tools,by a cultural standpoint they were a bunch of bloodthirsty monsters who believed they needed to sacrifice a certain number of people every day to prevent the sun from going out.
With a parting point of the first time the Dutch arrive at Japan, can the Dutch colonise Japan by the end of the 17th century in a similar way to Batavia, Sri Lanka, or its Caribbean colonies?
Most of the Japanese Christians were Catholics and the Dutch were Calvinist Protestants, heck they even helped suppress ShimabaraIf the Christian population gets even bigger and you had a more religious focused Dutch policy, you could have the Dutch attempt at helping the Christian daimyos, although the divided between Catholic and Protestants would make this a bit harder, maybe a different reformation and an Habsburg Netherlands could pull this off, but it would be limited to the South to the islands of Kyushu and maybe, a big maybe, Shikoku. It wouldn't be a colony and not exactly a client state or protectorate either, but it would be a Dutch affiliated state.
I think I said just that in my post, I think that making the Dutch stronger while having a more unified Christendom would allow the situation to be more in favour of a intervention or support from Europeans.Most of the Japanese Christians were Catholics and the Dutch were Calvinist Protestants, heck they even helped suppress Shimabara
nothing is in a vacuum, if there were more Christians, you can be certain that there would be a much more aggressive press against Christians, both inside the population, but equally so also foreigners, who'll have much less manoeuvrable space to interact
I think I said just that in my post, I think that making the Dutch stronger while having a more unified Christendom would allow the situation to be more in favour of a intervention or support from Europeans.
Dude you can, the Dutch existed before the Reformation and the reformation didn't have to end like it did IOTL, with a early 16th century POD you could have for example an Habsburg Netherlands and a reformation that doesn't end like IOTL, with more moderation, less strife etc.As Monter said, most Japanese Christians were Catholics. Which is one of the reasons the Dutchmen had a monopoly on Japanese trade: the Calvinists kept their faith to themselves.
You can't strengthen one (the Dutch) without weakening the other (the unity of Christendom). Europeans are not a monolithic bloc, what with the Lutherans, Calvinists, Universalists, and Catholics all bickering against one another. Heck, Catholic Christendom wasn't a unified camp: France allied with the Turks against the Habsburgs who were ostensibly the protectors of the Faith.![]()