Make Germany Remain Democratic

Nah teddy hated germany unlike people thought, that would be like OT.

Nah, the french would have refused and got worse in rhineland

The only way is not ww1 or germany winning it

Hating Germany is better than otl. If Germany is stripped of all their industry then they can't rearm.

OTL Germany kept all their toys and industry but were told not to use it...
 
He could consult the ghost of Bismarck for consultation.

Oh yeah I remember how famously Bismarck conquered foreign backed democracies of a deliberately divided Germany...

Honestly, at least use reasonable analogies.

Might as well say the roman empire was also going to reappear in the 20th century and conquer Spain, France, England etc
 
Oh yeah I remember how famously Bismarck conquered foreign backed democracies of a deliberately divided Germany...

Honestly, at least use reasonable analogies.

Might as well say the roman empire was also going to reappear in the 20th century and conquer Spain, France, England etc
Oh, there was at least a lot of French support for anything anti-Prussian within Germany throughout the 1860s. And France is probably the only power which I can even faintly imagine solidly supporting any German puppet republics a la Republic of the Rhine in the 1920sff..

I don't see how it makes a difference if you march into a Bavarian Kingdom or a Bavarian Free State.
 
Oh yeah I remember how famously Bismarck conquered foreign backed democracies of a deliberately divided Germany...

Honestly, at least use reasonable analogies.

Might as well say the roman empire was also going to reappear in the 20th century and conquer Spain, France, England etc

I would think he was referring to the more general rules of Bismarck's diplomacy. Time is the only variable that matters here as if you work to unite Germans behind an external enemy or cause then you don't have to even "conquer" so much as unite eventually. The governments might be backed by foreign powers but ultimately this likely leads only to the populations desire for a common Germany to increase. I understand your logic that a divided situation would be much harder, but I think it is equally easy to see that any scenario of a divided Germany after WW1 only FUELS the common German's desire for someone to unite the Germans. If provides an even greater call to arms than the "corridor" or the poor Germans who were cut off from Germany were OTL.
 
I just don't see it. The unification of Germany was already a massive deal the first time, how distracted are powers going to be after they all agreed to set it up, every neighbouring power, Italy, Denmark, Poland, France, the low counties will have expanded their borders and have incentive for Germany to stay patchwork. Compared to otl where there were hardly any Germans outside of Germany and there's good justification that have been they should be in Germany.

Walking into the rhineland is one thing but you want me to believe that the foreign powers will appease 9 anschluss in a row...?

How are Prussians or Bavarians gonna convince the world that they can annex the democratic nation next door?

Unless all of the people of these 10 democratic nations votes on their own to end democracy and now we're in all Germans love dictatorships
 
I'm with the people who think this wouldn't take that much. Stresemann living longer and/or Hindenburg not living as long would already go a long way; I expect both would probably suffice. Actually, just Hindenburg; Nazi popularity was actually declining at the point when Hindenburg appointed Hitler chancellor. If Hitler doesn't get appointed chancellor, it is not clear that the Nazis will ever end up taking over. The Weimar republic had problems, but there is too much tendency to think that whatever happens in history must have been inevitable, when plenty of events actually involved quite a bit of luck.
 
Raising a hand to support the notion that the fall of 2nd Reich wasn't predestined even from its complicated and harsh birth.

Except that the Hohenzollern German Empire was the one considered the 2nd Reich...

...Reich version 2.5 perhaps?

But I also agree that the fall of the Weimar Republic was not pre-ordained as many would want to believe (much like that of the Third Republic, who actually did survive.)

As @David T said, just have Hindenburg die early, and not call for re-elections until when intended to happen, in 1934 when the global recovery were to happen.

Of course then, the question is, will Germany start to recover at the same time, or will it be a sluggish affair that will endanger the more democratic positions in play?
 

Marc

Donor
Except that the Hohenzollern German Empire was the one considered the 2nd Reich...

...Reich version 2.5 perhaps?

But I also agree that the fall of the Weimar Republic was not pre-ordained as many would want to believe (much like that of the Third Republic, who actually did survive.)

As @David T said, just have Hindenburg die early, and not call for re-elections until when intended to happen, in 1934 when the global recovery were to happen.

Of course then, the question is, will Germany start to recover at the same time, or will it be a sluggish affair that will endanger the more democratic positions in play?

For some reason I think colloquially as Wilhelmine Germany as the 1st, the Weimar as the 2nd, and the Great Tragedy as the 3rd. It's difficult to guesstimate Germany's recovery since there was so many variables, but let's imagine that Germany adopts a strategy similar to Sweden's:

"A reduction in taxes gave the average wage earner more money to spend, and a raised minimum wage increased the ability of low-income people to spend money. The government increased investments in public works. Federal money was pumped into unemployment insurance, medical care and old age pensions. The government willingly created a deficit, believing that it was emergency spending that would be paid back after the recovery. And with recovery being rapid and revenues increasing as a result of the rising economy, revenues increased and the deficit was quickly overcome.
Government participation in the economic life of Sweden had increased. The government supported farm prices and protective tariffs for farm products, and giving aid to the unemployed in farming areas helped to slow migration from the countryside into the cities. The Social Democrats gave labor the right to strike, but Sweden had a board that settled worker-management grievances, a board in which labor and management had confidence, and peace between labor and management benefited the economy.

Sweden's industrialists were disgruntled over higher taxes on their personal incomes, but they did not feel threatened to the extent that they withdrew from participating in the economy or the recovery. Manufacturing was to remain over 90 percent in the hands of capitalists, and business profits were left untaxed in order to stimulate rapid reinvestment. By 1936, industrial production in Sweden was 50 percent above what it had been in 1929 and unemployment had returned to 5 percent."


It's a bit wistfully pleasant to think of a Germany as a scaled up Scandinavian country rich and happy in the 1940's, instead of the more typical Deutschland über alles dark fantasies...
 
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Thomas1195

Banned
For some reason I think colloquially as Wilhelmine Germany as the 1st, the Weimar as the 2nd, and the Great Tragedy as the 3rd. It's difficult to guesstimate Germany's recovery since there was so many variables, but let's imagine that Germany adopts a strategy similar to Sweden's:

"A reduction in taxes gave the average wage earner more money to spend, and a raised minimum wage increased the ability of low-income people to spend money. The government increased investments in public works. Federal money was pumped into unemployment insurance, medical care and old age pensions. The government willingly created a deficit, believing that it was emergency spending that would be paid back after the recovery. And with recovery being rapid and revenues increasing as a result of the rising economy, revenues increased and the deficit was quickly overcome.
Government participation in the economic life of Sweden had increased. The government supported farm prices and protective tariffs for farm products, and giving aid to the unemployed in farming areas helped to slow migration from the countryside into the cities. The Social Democrats gave labor the right to strike, but Sweden had a board that settled worker-management grievances, a board in which labor and management had confidence, and peace between labor and management benefited the economy.

Sweden's industrialists were disgruntled over higher taxes on their personal incomes, but they did not feel threatened to the extent that they withdrew from participating in the economy or the recovery. Manufacturing was to remain over 90 percent in the hands of capitalists, and business profits were left untaxed in order to stimulate rapid reinvestment. By 1936, industrial production in Sweden was 50 percent above what it had been in 1929 and unemployment had returned to 5 percent."


It's a bit wistfully pleasant to think of a Germany as a scaled up Scandinavian country rich and happy in the 1940's, instead of the more typical Deutschland über alles dark fantasies...
Dude, you would need Walther Rathenau to survive to have these policies enacted. Walther Rathenau, a left liberal, was loyal to the republic and he understood the economy far better than say, Bruning. Also, a Social Democrat could not do that, because he would trigger the right by doing so (this was the same reason why Labour pursued austerity in the UK). You need a non-Socialist republican at the helm of Weimar's economic stewardship.

If Rathenau had to die (he was a leading wanted among the reactionaries), then another combination of two POD: kill off Stressmann early and merge the two liberal parties into one (there were serious talks among the National Liberals to join the DDP at that time), while keeping Schacht loyal to the liberals. Now, we would have Schacht enacting the OTL policies but under a republican government.
 
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Marc

Donor
Dude, you would need Walther Rathenau to survive to have these policies enacted. Walther Rathenau, a left liberal, was loyal to the republic and he understood the economy far better than say, Bruning. Also, a Social Democrat could not do that, because he would trigger the right by doing so (this was the same reason why Labour pursued austerity in the UK). You need a non-Socialist republican at the helm of Weimar's economic stewardship.

If Rathenau had to die (he was a leading wanted among the reactionaries), then another combination of two POD: kill off Stressmann early and merge the two liberal parties into one (there were serious talks among the National Liberals to join the DDP at that time), while keeping Schacht loyal to the liberals. Now, we would have Schacht enacting the OTL policies but under a republican government.

I did throw in "wistful". However, I would be happy to debate the notion with anyone that that future was as plausible as some outright Nazi victory in WW2.
And a lot more enjoyable to work out than the alternative....
 
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I just don't see it. The unification of Germany was already a massive deal the first time, how distracted are powers going to be after they all agreed to set it up, every neighbouring power, Italy, Denmark, Poland, France, the low counties will have expanded their borders and have incentive for Germany to stay patchwork. Compared to otl where there were hardly any Germans outside of Germany and there's good justification that have been they should be in Germany.

Walking into the rhineland is one thing but you want me to believe that the foreign powers will appease 9 anschluss in a row...?

How are Prussians or Bavarians gonna convince the world that they can annex the democratic nation next door?

Unless all of the people of these 10 democratic nations votes on their own to end democracy and now we're in all Germans love dictatorships

Yeah just until the putative reuniter of Germany is a Communist and he calls the Bear in for help...
 
Yeah just until the putative reuniter of Germany is a Communist and he calls the Bear in for help...

So now I'm to believe the west sit back and allow the Soviets to flip all of Germany? Truly impossible to maintain democracy...

Besides which I imagine German communism would be more like Rosa Luxembourg than Lenin.
 

Marc

Donor
Think about how powerfully influential a wealthy, non-militarily aggressive, not fascist or communist, Germany could be on the course of events from 1936-1954 (Stalin's death).
 
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