Magnum's naval PoD's. Ep. 7 - Danish navy puts up a fight in 1940

This one is a really minor one compared to the others, but I guess it can be quite fun.



This is the German Kriegsmarine OOB:

Objectives Korsör and Nyborg

Warship Group Seven
Kapitän zur See Gustav Kleikamp

  • Schleswig-HolsteinKapitän zur See Gustav Kleikamp
  • Claus von Bevern (mine warfare trial ship, ex minesweeper/large torpedo boat)
  • Pelikan (mine warfare trial ship, ex minesweeper)
  • Nautilus (mine warfare trial ship, ex minesweeper)
  • Campinas (cargo ship)
  • Cordoba (cargo ship)
  • MRS 12 (minesweeper)
School Flotilla of Commander in Chief Baltic Approaches

Objectives Copenhagen
Warship Group Eight
Korvettenkapitän Wilhelm Schroeder

Warship Group Eight supported in the waters of the Belt by 13. Patron-Flotilla – Kapitänleutnant Dr. Walther Fischer

Objectives Middelfart and Belt Bridge
Warship Group Nine
Kapitän zur See Helmut Leissner, F.d.V.O

  • Rugard (cargo ship), flagship of F.d.V.O,
  • Arkona (M115), Otto Braun (M129), Cressida, Silvia, R6, R7 (minesweepers)
  • UJ 107 (ASW patrol craft)
  • Passat, Monsun (Tugs)
Objectives Esbjerg and Nordby
Warship Group Ten
Kapitän zur See and Kommodore Friedrich Ruge F.d.M. West

  • Königin Luise (F6) (patrol craft)
12. Minehunter FlotillaKorvettenkapitän Karl Marguth

  • KFK M1201, KFK M1202, KFK M1203, KFK M1204, KFK M1205, KFK M1206, KFK M1207, KFK M1208, M4, M20, M84, M102 (minesweepers)
2. Minesweeper FlotillaKorvettenkapitän Gert von Kamptz

  • R25, R26, R27, R28, R29, R30, R31, R32 (R boat minesweepers)
Objective Thyborön
'Warship Group ElevenKorvettenkapitän Walter Berger
4. Minehunter FlotillaKorvettenkapitän Walter Berger

  • M-61, M-89, M-110, M-111, M-134, M-136 (minesweepers)
3. Minesweeper FlotillaKapitänleutnant Hagen Küster

Mine Sweeper Covering Group Laying minefields to the Skagerrak to protect the German resupply route to southern Norway.

Minelaying GroupKapitän zur See Kurt Böhmer:


For our purposes, we're going to be focusing on the first group, centered around the pre-dread Schlweswig-Holstein, and comprising 4 minesweepers (one of which was armed with a 10.5 cm gun, the rest with probably only a 7.5 cm each), 6 armed fishing trawlers (let's give them each a 20mm gun) and two cargo ships, all of them packed with infantry.
600px-Bundesarchiv_DVM_10_Bild-23-63-47%2C_Linienschiff_%22Schleswig-Holstein%22.jpg



The S-H had four 28cm guns in twin turrets, 240mm belt and a whole bunch of lighter armament.

She briefly ran aground for 10.5 hours, during which Germany's other pre-dreadnaught, Schlesien, came in to receive some of the infantry the S-H was carrying. (The Schlesien had identical armament, and it would seem both ships had rather green crews, as they were used for training).
600px-SMS_Schlesien_BainNews.jpg


Against this motley force of two pre-dreadnoughts (one of which is immobilized and the other stationary near it) and ten light craft comes the mighty Danish navy:

At its center is the Peder Skram, a coastal defense ship with:
2 x 24 cm Guns
4 x 15 cm Guns
10 x 75 mm Guns
2 x 37 mm Guns
4 x 45 cm Torpedo Tubes
She could manage 16 knots, and had armour of 155-195 mm.
Pansarskeppet_Peder_Skram-1939.jpeg



Also present is the Niels Juel, which is a sort of strange ship part coastal battleship, part light cruiser. She had 10 x 15cm guns and two torpedo tubes, similar armour to the Peder Skram and only managed 14.5 knots.
NielsJuel-Janes.jpg



Finally, there would be 10 torpedo boats - six of them older variants that could make 24.6 knots, and four newer ones that could get up to 27 knots.

Let's also throw in two of the Danish minesweepers that were armed with 1 x 7.5 cm gun each, cos why not?)

GermanyDenmark
Schleswig-Holstein (immobilized)
Schlesien (stationary)
4 minesweepers
6 armed trawlers
Peder Skram
Niels Juel
10 torpedo boats
2 minesweepers


Can the Danish TBs (or even the coastal battleship) close the distance and finish off the German heavies with their torpedoes, or will their fate be similar to the charge of the light brigade?
 
The first thing that comes to mind for me...will the Danes be willing to fight?
Throwing ideas out (like spaghetti on the wall to see if it's done)-
 
IIRC the Germans had the element of surprise in OTL. Do they know the Danes are coming in this scenario or are they caught off guard? Also is the battle during the day or night? If it's the former, I'd wager that the Luftwaffe shows up early enough to impact the battle.

That being said, the real impact a more aggressive Danish resistance is going to have is going to rely on how badly they can damage the airfields at Aalborg.
 
The first thing that comes to mind for me...will the Danes be willing to fight?
That's a good question - the examples we have, of which I've read about, seems to indicate that on a small unit level, they were decently willing to fight, though by no means Japanese-level suicidal. Leadership let them down, and strategic decisions were a master class in failure.
 

Driftless

Donor
Avoid the parley with the Germans if they're in Danish territorial waters. (as the Norwegians came to regret at Narvik).

Maybe the bigger Danish ships can serve as a distraction to allow the torpedo boats (as slow as they are) to close enough to launch an attack.
 
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IIRC the Germans had the element of surprise in OTL. Do they know the Danes are coming in this scenario or are they caught off guard?
Everything I read seems to indicate that the Danes had received advanced warning, but sat on their asses doing little to nothing.

I envisioned this as the Germans not anticipating the Danish reaction.


Also is the battle during the day or night? If it's the former, I'd wager that the Luftwaffe shows up early enough to impact the battle.
The landings took place sometime shortly after 4 a.m., but the Schleswig-Holstein apparently got stuck for 10.5 hours to their south, meaning (some of?) the minesweepers probably went ahead without it. One could probably write the battle as being either during daytime or night time.



That being said, the real impact a more aggressive Danish resistance is going to have is going to rely on how badly they can damage the airfields at Aalborg..
That is true, but I wanted to focus on the naval aspect of the campaign. There were a lot of unexplainable screw-up by the Danes: having an enemy enter your capital harbour with an ocean liner carrying soldiers whilst you sit on your hands, and when you belatedly order a warning shot fired the recruits manning your gun drop the ball and start scratching their noses is not exactly a crowing moment of glory, nor is a ferry directly docking at your port (after a general alarm has been raised!) and start unloading tanks directly whilst you just sit there and watch.
Or a crucial fortress guarding a key chokepoint, over which the Fallschirmjaeger expected a bloody fight, is only defended by an officer and two privates. So there would be lots of things to improve in this general comedy of errors.
 
Everything I read seems to indicate that the Danes had received advanced warning, but sat on their asses doing little to nothing.

I envisioned this as the Germans not anticipating the Danish reaction.



The landings took place sometime shortly after 4 a.m., but the Schleswig-Holstein apparently got stuck for 10.5 hours to their south, meaning (some of?) the minesweepers probably went ahead without it. One could probably write the battle as being either during daytime or night time.




That is true, but I wanted to focus on the naval aspect of the campaign. There were a lot of unexplainable screw-up by the Danes: having an enemy enter your capital harbour with an ocean liner carrying soldiers whilst you sit on your hands, and when you belatedly order a warning shot fired the recruits manning your gun drop the ball and start scratching their noses is not exactly a crowing moment of glory, nor is a ferry directly docking at your port (after a general alarm has been raised!) and start unloading tanks directly whilst you just sit there and watch.
Or a crucial fortress guarding a key chokepoint, over which the Fallschirmjaeger expected a bloody fight, is only defended by an officer and two privates. So there would be lots of things to improve in this general comedy of errors.
I guess what I meant by the element of surprise was that the Danes either refused to/weren't able to capitalize on their initial warnings.

If they can marshal their navy and confront this German force without the Luftwaffe catching wind of it, the Kriegsmarine is going to be in for a tough battle. Their pre-dreads aren't built for the shallow waters and don't have much if any torpedo protection IIRC. The Danes probably know this, so their likely strategy is to use their heavier ships to fend off the German screening vessels in order to enable their torpedo boats to hit the pre-dreadnaughts. From there it's either make a run to the UK or get sunk by the Luftwaffe, but at least they go out in the blaze of glory in TTL. The lost sailors are going to be the biggest blow in this scenario IMO as both pre-dreads can be salvaged quite easily I imagine.
 
I guess for Denmark it doesn't matter a lot if they're being conquered in one day or five (or even a bit more). But it should be possible for the Danish navy to sink a few German ships and mess up the timetable of the unloading. Which will also mess-up the timetable of the Norway campaign. And that could have major consequences (as in the Norewegians being better prepared and putting up more of a fight, leading to a failure to capture (the whole of) Norway).

Apart from that the Kriegsmarine was already hit hard, more losses will cripple it even more.
 
What was the Luftwaffe up to? A single fighter brings more firepower to the encounter than a poorly armed minesweeper, and a halfway competent dive bomber wing should put the Danish costal defense ships out of action.
 
Denmark was in the position that Luftwaffe could bomb Copenhagen with ease from bases 20 minutes away from the capital and Denmark was not especially keen on having their capital turn into a smoldering ruin
 
What was the Luftwaffe up to? A single fighter brings more firepower to the encounter than a poorly armed minesweeper, and a halfway competent dive bomber wing should put the Danish costal defense ships out of action.
As it happens, we had this exact situation occur, where a German bomber force of Stukas and other aircraft bombed ad strafed the Niels Juel:

After 40 minutes of attacks, a near miss knocked out the electricity and fire control systems, leading to the captain deciding to scuttle the vessel.
 
The Danish coast defence ships are oooooooold, they're late 1890's designs, their speed is probably less than 16 knots due to their age, those torpedoes would be very small and again old (thus short ranged and slow) and the guns are again, old and I'd guess their crews were also very green. Honestly it would be more humane to line up their crews and just have Danes fire machine guns at them, as there's not much those old, slow and vulnerable ships can do save serve as blockships. They're also horrifically vulnerable to air attack, so yeah use them as block ships, send the crew ashore, or beach them and use them as batteries. If you're sending them out to fight then you're very deliberately killing the crews.

If the Danes chose to fight, then the conquest of Denmark takes a day longer at most, they were simply outclassed and outnumbered as well as being in a terrible tactical and strategic position. Maybe if they'd manned any forts they had, mined/wrecked their harbours, blown up airfields and the like then it would have slowed the German attack on Norway, but really they're not going to hold out for more than a few days at most.
 
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The Danish coast defence ships are oooooooold, they're late 1890's designs, their speed is probably less than 16 knots due to their age, those torpedoes would be very small and again old (thus short ranged and slow) and the guns are again, old and I'd guess their crews were also very green. Honestly it would be more humane to line up their crews and just have Danes fire machine guns at them, as there's not much those old, slow and vulnerable ships can do save serve as blockships. They're also horrifically vulnerable to air attack, so yeah use them as block ships, send the crew ashore, or beach them and use them as batteries. If you're sending them out to fight then you're very deliberately killing the crews.

If the Danes chose to fight, then the conquest of Denmark takes a day longer at most, they were simply outclassed and outnumbered as well as being in a terrible tactical and strategic position. Maybe if they'd manned any forts they had, mined/wrecked their harbours, blown up airfields and the like then it would have slowed the German attack on Norway, but really they're not going to hold out for more than a few days at most.
The Peder Skram was launched in 1908.
The Niels Juel was completed in 1922 and modernized in '36.
Of the 21 torpedo boats they had in total, the 10 I assigned them to this operation were built in 1913, 1917 and 1929-1933.
Torpedoes on them and the Peder Skram were 457 mm, so about the same size as the Japanese ones.

The two pre-dreadnaughts were no spring chickens themselves, and also had green crews.
 
So, show of hands, who thinks the Germans will beat off the Danes, and who thinks the Danes can close the distance and put some torpedoes into the German pre-dreadnaughts?
 

Driftless

Donor
So, show of hands, who thinks the Germans will beat off the Danes, and who thinks the Danes can close the distance and put some torpedoes into the German pre-dreadnaughts?
Green crews against green crews. The Danes get a torpedo or two into one of the German ships. If they're lucky it's one of the pre-dreads. With the small torpedos, that might not be enough to sink the bigger ships outright, but it might be enough where the Germans are forced to beach the ship to prevent its capsizing.

A moral victory for the Danes, but thats probably as far as it goes. Might you see more Danes escaping to Britain to continue the fight?

Will the occupation be harsher? Probably on par with what the Norwegians experienced
 
One potential butterfly of a big Danish victory may be that there won't be proper crews for Bismarck and/or Tirpitz once they finish, as the two pre-dreadnaughts must surely have been used to train the crews of the new battleships.
 
Avoid the parley with the Germans if they're in Danish territorial waters. (as the Norwegians came to regret at Narvik).

Maybe the bigger Danish ships can serve as a distraction to allow the torpedo boats (as slow as they are) to close enough to launch an attack.
We just need a Danish John McClane on the scene.
What was that?

Blucher can attest to having someone get the drop on them.

Lets not forget that the German pre-Dreadnoughts lost a sister at Jutland to a torpedo.
vyu8y76tki861.jpg
 
Any possibility of the Danish submarines getting into the action? They could be a game changer!
By my count in 1940 the Danish navy had seven submarines, I have no Idea how capable they were or which if any were operational at the time.
 
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