Magnum's naval PoD's. Ep. 3 - MORE "Pocket Battleships"

Magnum

This one's quick & easy, though probably not all that interesting:

Weimar Germany somehow finds the funds and political capital to build 3 more Deutschland-class ships, up to their assigned limit of 6, before Hitler comes to power; minimal changes otherwise.

What kind of effects, if any, might this have down the line?
 
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Some Bloke

More ship building experience?
Larger shipbuilding industry?
Earlier research into larger gun calibres?
Foreign interest in the concept?
 
Lascaris

Lascaris

Probably way more effects than it looks. France got to react. Which means more Dunkerques need to be built, 4 to 6 German ships logically. But there is a little problem with this. 4 ships at 26,500t each is 106,000t. Under Washington had the right to lay down 70,000t before 1930 with another 35,000t in 1931. Under the London treaty the replacement tonnage after 1930 was frozen till 1936. Well not here, the French need the tonnage to counter the German ships, and the Italians need to build something if France has laid down 4 new battleships. So this part of the treaty goes up in smoke.

Probably not the only one. France and Italy had already failed to sign the limitations on cruisers at London. Here the Royal Navy also needs to deal with half a dozen German commerce raiders each individually more powerful than any RN heavy cruiser. Oops...
 

Some Bloke

Hood would be interesting, Ditto Tiger. IRRC the British designed the 14" gun to be compatible with 13.5" fittings. Modernising the tiger would be seriously pricey, but theoretically, you could have a significant gun and armour upgrade and still retaining speed if the coal fired machinery is replaced with small tube oil fired boilers perhaps even retaining all the turrets giving you a faster, better armed ship than the QEs.
 
Driftless

Driftless

Donor
Dorknought said:
The French and Italians didn’t sign the 1930 London Naval Treaty. A spurt of German building may push the French Italians and Brits together.
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And the US grudgingly comes along, with FDR using a "Keynes Cruisers" concept to help sell the idea to the homefront?
 

Dorknought

The US considered pulling out of the Washington Naval Treaty over Japanese aggression in Manchuria. Perhaps call the whole naval disarmament regime off in 1931.
 

1Big Rich

Magnum said:
This one's quick & easy, though probably not all that interesting:

Weimar Germany somehow finds the funds and political capital to build 3 more Deutschland-class ships, up to their assigned limit of 6, before Hitler comes to power; minimal changes otherwise.

What kind of effects, if any, might this have down the line?
Click to expand...

Would the additional panzarschiffe be improved Graf Spees or would they be closer to Schiffe D (Panzarschiffe D, 20,000 tons, 29 knots)?

KMS_Ersatz_Hessen_Circa_Era_1935.jpg


Regards,
 

Magnum

1Big Rich said:
They didn't when D and E were laid down historically, in 1934, before the Anglo-German Naval Treaty and before Hitler's repudiation of Versailles....
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OP says they're built during the Weimar era, before Hitler came to power, so I imagine such brazenness would be unlikely
 

thaddeus

Donor
as a practical matter they would still be under construction when a Nazi regime takes power? so Hitler or any new leader could disavow building more? and still sign some AGNA? (more beyond the 3 additional started under this scenario by Weimar)

this scenario would seem pretty unpopular, even with the German army, as the navy has received more resources and drawn world scrutiny.

so the navy has 6 Panzerschiffe, what is constructed above (?) and below them?

possibly the 3 new ships use the hybrid propulsion favored at the time? maybe if they are restricted by Hitler beyond that they actually built some of the mooted destroyers/cruisers using the same machinery? (that could at least on paper venture out into the Atlantic)
 
Lascaris

Lascaris

Dorknought said:
The French and Italians didn’t sign the 1930 London Naval Treaty. A spurt of German building may push the French Italians and Brits together.
Click to expand...

To be technical they did not sign part 3, which capped the tonnage on light ships and cruisers but did sign the extension of the naval holiday for battleships. Here? Not even that. Probably only articles 3 to 13 happen.
 

1Big Rich

Magnum said:
OP says they're built during the Weimar era, before Hitler came to power, so I imagine such brazenness would be unlikely
Click to expand...

Weimar Germany was already cheating on the treaty.

As I've said, the Weimar government was hardly made of angels; von Papen and Schleicher both asked Hindenburg to turn the republic into a dictatorship.

Regards,
 

NOMISYRRUC

Magnum said:
This one's quick & easy, though probably not all that interesting:

Weimar Germany somehow finds the funds and political capital to build 3 more Deutschland-class ships, up to their assigned limit of 6, before Hitler comes to power; minimal changes otherwise.

What kind of effects, if any, might this have down the line?
Click to expand...
Are you talking about replacing this...

German Capital Ships.png


With this?​

German Capital Ships TTL.png
 
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NOMISYRRUC

Magnum said:
This one's quick & easy, though probably not all that interesting:

Weimar Germany somehow finds the funds and political capital to build 3 more Deutschland-class ships, up to their assigned limit of 6, before Hitler comes to power; minimal changes otherwise.

What kind of effects, if any, might this have down the line?
Click to expand...
AFAIK the allowance was for up to eight coast defence battleships so they could legally have ordered 6 panzerschiffen 1928-32 and ordered what would become The Twins as the seventh and eighth panzerschiffen.

The British might prefer it this way because the three extra Deutschlands consumed a "proper" battleships worth of tonnage under the Anglo German Naval Agreement. IOTL there was enough tonnage for the Germans to build three 35,000 ton capital ships. ITTL there would only be enough for two.
 
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