Magnum's naval PoD's. Ep. 1 - No "Pocket Battleships"

not sure what they would build but starved of resources and restricted by the major naval powers, likely they start planning for a u-boat war earlier?
 
Welcome in what I hope will become an interesting series of threads regarding various naval aspects of ww2.

To start off, let's focus on the famous pocket battleships. Al lot of the discussion I've seen so far was about what the Germans could have built instead. However, this isn't about that - instead, let's suppose Weimar Germany never builds them, or any other 10,000 ton ship as permitted by Versailles in the first place! There was considerable opposition to their construction OTL from the left, with the communists proposing a referendum be carried out on whether to build them. Assume the SPD agrees, and "No" wins out at the ballot. History proceeds more or less as OTL - Hitler looses the presidency to Hindenburg, NSDAP does great in parliamentary elections, and the old fart appoints Hitler as Chancellor.

Hindenburg pledges to respect the results of the referendum, and thus Hitler can only start contemplating starting construction of any capital ships after the old man croaks, in late summer - early autumn 1934.

In theory, we could still get all of the other ships minus the 3 Deutschland-class, possibly with a bunch of slightly modernized pre-dreadnoughts on top. But would we? And what else would change?

In OTL Deutschland start being built in 1929 after SDP had actively campaigned against it in the 1928 election and the new Reichstag, with the SDP at it's strongest still voted for the ships by an easy majority (SPD and KPD together made 40.4% of the popular vote and 207 out of 491 seats). How do you go from that to a majority either in the Reichstag or in a referendum (where at least part of the SPD voters will be voting for construction of the ships) without drastically altering the rest of German politics?
 
In OTL Deutschland start being built in 1929 after SDP had actively campaigned against it in the 1928 election and the new Reichstag, with the SDP at it's strongest still voted for the ships by an easy majority (SPD and KPD together made 40.4% of the popular vote and 207 out of 491 seats). How do you go from that to a majority either in the Reichstag or in a referendum (where at least part of the SPD voters will be voting for construction of the ships) without drastically altering the rest of German politics?
Honest answer is I don't know, and unfortunately I do not have the time to research this properly. Given that I doubt it's impossible, I simply handwaved the issue away in order to get the actual discussion going, instead of getting bogged down in Weimar-era parliamentary minutiae. However, if you have an idea on how to achieve said outcome, I'd be more than happy to see it
 
The VT didn’t restrict replacements to 11” guns. One scheme was 4x15” in2 turrets not 6x11”. The old ships needed replacement as they absorbed a big proportion of the available budget in maintenance. That said, without the early replacements then perhaps S&G are 6 18,000 ton Deutschlands built to the right size in the first place.
 
The VT didn’t restrict replacements to 11” guns. One scheme was 4x15” in2 turrets not 6x11”. The old ships needed replacement as they absorbed a big proportion of the available budget in maintenance. That said, without the early replacements then perhaps S&G are 6 18,000 ton Deutschlands built to the right size in the first place.

The Germans chose 11" because this was something they could build at the time and also a conscious decision to not annoy the British

6 x 18,000 Tonners which I assume are much heavily armored Cruisers with 3 x 3 11" guns?

In that case this ship would be classed as a capital ship and the 35% AGNA limit 35%/15 = 5.25 = 5 ships

Also how would the British view them?

Also how would the Germans think the British would view them?

They had to tread carefully as the Germans initially believed that they were keeping the British 'on side'.
 
Why canceling the "Panzerschiffe" in the first place is the question.

First:
This type of over armed commerce raiding cruiser was a political statement by the German State pre-NSDAP, pointing on the Versailles Treaty the German Naval Enginering and designing Ingenuity still existed, as at the same time pointing a middle finger to the former victors that had forced the Versailles treaty upon Germany in the first place. The main reason the "Panzerschiffe" had been developed were a direct result of the Versailles treaty Naval section. Having no such extreme cruisers designed would only have been possible with no Treaty of Versailles in the first place.

Second:
The Great War had already shown the Reichsmarine, its predecessor should put it attention not on a classical battlefleet, but at a navy designed to counter enemy (=British) commerce at sea, meaning: commerceraiding as a main goal, demanding ships designed to do such a role, both surface and subsurface. With the restrictions of the Treaty of Versailles, the designers put their skills into developing a design roughly within the limitations put on by the former Entente, though cheating a bit in details, like any nation did at this time, except the UK. (Yes USA also cheated partly in some cases = see Lexington class CV conversion) As a result of this the German Engineers and designers had a choice to either put to sea a more traditional sort of cruiser, that was inferior an every aspect to almost everything the opposition could bring out to sea, or design something spectacular to upset politics and make a statement. They choose the later for obvious reasons.

Third:
Hindsight is irrelevant as everything can be done better with hindsight. The timeframe the project was started was one where the German Navy legally had the right to replace a number of overage capital ships for the Reichsmarine, within the restrictions of the Treaty of Versailles, so they had to work with this knowledge no matter what else. The choices were:
1. Replacement by a coast defense battleship, which was the type the former Allies wanted the Germans to restrict themselves to. This was a pure defensive type, simmilar to the existing Pre-Dreadnoughts and Swedish Sverige class. Slow and decently protected with a short range, incapable of sailing the oceans. This was unacceptable for the Germans as it would mean they would accept the Treaty of Versailles as such, which they severely objected to in the first place.
2. Replacement by a traditional sort of long ranged cruiser, similar in concept to other cruisers abroad of similar size. This was not acceptable as well, since the German ships would be seen as replacement for a capital ship, rather than just a cruiser, therefor limiting the numbers allowed for in the Navy. In case of a conflict these small numbers would be a serious tactical problem as these ships were not considered to be capable of defending themselves against the already vastly superior numbers of expected opposing cruisers.
3. Replacement by a radical new design focused on commerceraiding, stronger than anything faster (apart from a very small number of British battlecruisers still in existence) and faster than anything stronger. This was the only realistic option at the time, other than deleting the navy as a whole. (Note submarines were still banned in this period.)
 
6 x 18,000 Tonners which I assume are much heavily armored Cruisers with 3 x 3 11" guns?
These:
upload_2019-6-19_21-30-19.jpg

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-class_cruiser_(Germany)
 
not sure what they would build but starved of resources and restricted by the major naval powers, likely they start planning for a u-boat war earlier?

Replacement by a radical new design focused on commerceraiding, stronger than anything faster (apart from a very small number of British battlecruisers still in existence) and faster than anything stronger. This was the only realistic option at the time, other than deleting the navy as a whole. (Note submarines were still banned in this period.)

what are the rules governing torpedoes at the time? always consider it fortunate that KM wasn't stymied so much that they concentrated even more on torpedo technology or even a WWII-version of FL-boats.

copy the Japanese turret for launching?
 
Everything about the Deutschlands annoyed the Brits. The Brits expected something like a Sverige.

Sorry should have explained myself better. When they armed the Twins with 11" and not 15" one of the decision making points to go 11" was not upsetting their Lordships.

The AGNA was signed on the 18th June 1935

Scharnhorst was laid down 3 days earlier on the 15th and the decision to go 11" must I suspect have already been agreed


Nice

Thanks
 
A ship that would easily win the battle of the River Plate.
I think 6 of them would upset the British, but the history is telling. The first was laid down well in advance of the AGN, but the Germans did not admit they were too big. They were referred to as improved Deutschland class ships. 2-6 of these is not a bad answer to the OP.

I am here presuming that no other 10000 tons ships are build by Weimar, as the argument for cutting them is the expenses.
 
A ship that would easily win the battle of the River Plate.
I think 6 of them would upset the British, but the history is telling. The first was laid down well in advance of the AGN, but the Germans did not admit they were too big. They were referred to as improved Deutschland class ships. 2-6 of these is not a bad answer to the OP.

I am here presuming that no other 10000 tons ships are build by Weimar, as the argument for cutting them is the expenses.

They got cancelled and the twins built instead

Had they built 6 of them then the ships on both sides at an analogous river plate are going to be different!
 
what are the rules governing torpedoes at the time? always consider it fortunate that KM wasn't stymied so much that they concentrated even more on torpedo technology or even a WWII-version of FL-boats.

copy the Japanese turret for launching?

Torpedo development was legal in this time, as this weapon was not exclusive for submarines only, but used on almost all major warships as well. The WW1 period torpedoes were steadily being developed in more modern ones, though funding this was a major problem, since the Interbellum years were restricted economic setbacks of all sorts, limiting funding of military projects, other than purely political ones, such as the "Panzerschiffe". A lot of experimenting was done on new technologies, but always with restricted funding.
 
Though the point made about the referendum is a good one, assuming all of the provisions of the OP ("No" wins, referendum is honored until 1934 etc.) I wonder if the Reichsmarine switches to a jeune ecole approach?

I'd imagine that in TTL, the Nuernberg is moved forward and is built as a true sister ship to the Leipzig. Given that the Leipzig class incorporates a lot of the technology that was used in the panzerschiffe, I don't know that delaying their construction is going to slow down the KM's development that much. Issues of scale will still exist of course, but I don't think it will be catastrophic.

I also wonder if instead of the panzerschiffe, the S-boat/E-boat becomes the focal point of German technological advancement? In OTL the revolutionary hull that gave the S-boat it's OTL advantages was first developed in 1929. S-1 was built in OTL in 1931 and further development followed. If a fraction of the resources allocated to the panzerschiffe were shifted to the S-boat program I wonder how much further it would be able to go. Though not as grand as the panzerschiffe, the E-boats could demonstrate German ingenuity in a similar way. Once Hitler no longer has to honor the referendum, I could see a similar raider-class built without Treaty restrictions much in the same way that the 1934 destroyers were (keels laid down with the belief that the Treaty will be further revised).
 
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