Deleted member 67076
Any way for the Maghreb and/or African states to join in on the American colonizations, preferably with a POD after 1300? Like, say, a more naval based West African Empire?
The African states south of the Sahara, I can't see a reasonable POD that would get them to become naval powers or overseas adventurers until very late in the game. Unless I'm mistaken there's practically no tradition of bluewater sailing in medieval Africa south of the Maghreb. Riverine and coastal experience, yes. It would have to be among the Berbers (who historically did settle the Canary Isles centuries before your parameters) or other N. Africans. You do have wide ranging corsairs operating out of Moroccan ports (the Sale Rovers) in the 17th C. who raided as far as the Americas and Iceland.
There is even a reputed Dutch member of the Rovers who fathered an American family.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Janszoon
The African states south of the Sahara, I can't see a reasonable POD that would get them to become naval powers or overseas adventurers until very late in the game. Unless I'm mistaken there's practically no tradition of bluewater sailing in medieval Africa south of the Maghreb. Riverine and coastal experience, yes. It would have to be among the Berbers (who historically did settle the Canary Isles centuries before your parameters) or other N. Africans. You do have wide ranging corsairs operating out of Moroccan ports (the Sale Rovers) in the 17th C. who raided as far as the Americas and Iceland.
There is even a reputed Dutch member of the Rovers who fathered an American family.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Janszoon
So interesting you should mention the Corsair republic of SaléExpect more on this in Minarets of Atlantis in updates to come
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Hmm, the Marinids had control over everything west of Tunis in the 1340s.It wasn't inevitable that the European powers would become so preeminent. There are numerous PODs that could plausibly retard or screw say emerging Spain. An united Al-Andalus and/or Maghrib that could maintain stable institutions would probably look more outwards. I'm not referring to the Almoravids or Almohads, either. Something earlier would be necessary.
The problem with emerging Sahel or W. African States developing a strong nautical tradition is that they were so land focused. Geography influencing cultural interests...
Hmm, the Marinids had control over everything west of Tunis in the 1340s.
Perhaps if they can keep that for say, a couple decades while having their southern expansions curbed that could be enough to shift the focus towards the sea?
As well, what if the Marinids win the battle of Rio Salado and keep both ends of the straight? The navy was very important in that war. Could that help signal a shift in being a more maritime power?
Hmm, the Marinids had control over everything west of Tunis in the 1340s.
Perhaps if they can keep that for say, a couple decades while having their southern expansions curbed that could be enough to shift the focus towards the sea?
As well, what if the Marinids win the battle of Rio Salado and keep both ends of the straight? The navy was very important in that war. Could that help signal a shift in being a more maritime power?
The factionism might be nipped in the bud if the Sultan crushed the Arab revolts in Tunisia as that was a blow to the central authority of the state. Didn't help he wasn't that respected.Yes, the Marinids...
The Marinids seemed to have the opportunity to defeat the Castilians in detail before the Portuguese arrived. But I don't really know the fine details of this battle. The Marinid army was formidable at this time and on paper, an equal or match for the Spanish. I don't know enough about the Marinid navy except they (with the navy of Grenada) slaughtered the scurvy-weakened Castilians at the Battle of Algeciras in 1278. And, the Marinids were very commercially oriented, their intervention in the Iberian Peninsula was at least as much about establishing a commercial hegemony as it was about propping up their co-religionist Grenadans.
The Marinids really only seemed to prosper up to the 1350s. They seemed to suffer from many of the same issues that brought down the Caliphate of Cordoba. The ruler giving and ultimately losing real power to their advisors, factionalization, economic downturn plus in the case of the Marinids, the Black Death hit them hard.
All that being said, the Marinids, had some of these issues been addressed, might have offered the basis for what you are seeking.
Further according to Bartolomé de las Casas, a 16th century Dominican priest & historian, Columbus' third voyage was set out partially to test the claims of John II of Portugal that;The ruler who preceded me did not believe that it was impossible to reach the extremity of the ocean that encircles the earth (the Atlantic Ocean). He wanted to reach that (end) and was determined to pursue his plan. So he equipped two hundred boats full of men, and many others full of gold, water and provisions sufficient for several years. He ordered the captain not to return until they had reached the other end of the ocean, or until he had exhausted the provisions and water. So they set out on their journey. They were absent for a long period, and, at last just one boat returned. When questioned the captain replied: 'O Prince, we navigated for a long period, until we saw in the midst of the ocean a great river which flowing massively. My boat was the last one; others were ahead of me, and they were drowned in the great whirlpool and never came out again. I sailed back to escape this current.' But the Sultan would not believe him. He ordered two thousand boats to be equipped for him and his men, and one thousand more for water and provisions. Then he conferred the regency on me for the term of his absence, and departed with his men, never to return nor to give a sign of life.
which were further corroborated by, again according to de las Casas, by claims by the natives of Hispaniola thatcanoes had been found which set out from the coast of Guinea [West Africa] and sailed to the west with merchandise
from the south and the southeast had come black people whose spears were made of a metal called guanín [bronze]
Legendary Malian ruler Mansa Musa only became king after his predecessor, Abu Bakr II, launched a massive naval expedition to cross the Atlantic.
Further according to Bartolomé de las Casas, a 16th century Dominican priest & historian, Columbus' third voyage was set out partially to test the claims of John II of Portugal that;
which were further corroborated by, again according to de las Casas, by claims by the natives of Hispaniola that
I will be brief and polite. Most scholars discount that this happened.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Bakr_II
Pay attention to notes and sources in this Wiki entry.
I didn't say he did travel to the New World, only that he had sent off in an expedition to such, and that at the time of Columbus that was a perception in the courts of Europe that the West Africans kingdoms were already trading with natives in the Americas. Its a start, have the expedition succeed, by some miracle, and you've got what the OP asked for.
Please pay attention to what other posters are actually stating.
You are being too sensitive.
Also plausibility is better for a TL than a miracle.
For example, developing the requisite skills and technology to make a trans-Atlantic voyage or indeed any long distance overseas exploration a real possibility.
I'm using the same tone as you did in your first reply. Pot, kettle, etc.
Granted, but those require a major restructuring of West African states & societies, which either means a POD far back in time, possibly even a century or more before contact, or a very large POD which suddenly revolutionizes everything, both of which sorta render the question moot as we're looking at a completely different, ATL, version of the Atlantic coast of Africa. My idea requires a very small POD, a simple change, which isn't that far off from possible - Columbus' voyages after all certainly were destined or secured to successful or as influential as they turned out to be. Hell, even getting the Malians to Cape Verge, only about ~700 km away, would be a major game changer, if they successfully discovered and then colonized it nearly a century before the Europeans first showed up there.
Otherwise I'm not really sure how exactly to pull this off without, as I said above, rendering the question moot by mutating the situation in West &/or North Africa so much so as to be completely alien to us IOTL.
Were the Wolof in the Indian Ocean trade? If so, the desire to integrate themselves into that trade network might spur naval reforms and expansion, which could pave the way for some colonization.