Maghreb/African Colonization of the Americas

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Deleted member 67076

Any way for the Maghreb and/or African states to join in on the American colonizations, preferably with a POD after 1300? Like, say, a more naval based West African Empire?
 
The African states south of the Sahara, I can't see a reasonable POD that would get them to become naval powers or overseas adventurers until very late in the game. Unless I'm mistaken there's practically no tradition of bluewater sailing in medieval Africa south of the Maghreb. Riverine and coastal experience, yes. It would have to be among the Berbers (who historically did settle the Canary Isles centuries before your parameters) or other N. Africans. You do have wide ranging corsairs operating out of Moroccan ports (the Sale Rovers) in the 17th C. who raided as far as the Americas and Iceland.

There is even a reputed Dutch member of the Rovers who fathered an American family.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Janszoon
 
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Deleted member 67076

The African states south of the Sahara, I can't see a reasonable POD that would get them to become naval powers or overseas adventurers until very late in the game. Unless I'm mistaken there's practically no tradition of bluewater sailing in medieval Africa south of the Maghreb. Riverine and coastal experience, yes. It would have to be among the Berbers (who historically did settle the Canary Isles centuries before your parameters) or other N. Africans. You do have wide ranging corsairs operating out of Moroccan ports (the Sale Rovers) in the 17th C. who raided as far as the Americas and Iceland.

There is even a reputed Dutch member of the Rovers who fathered an American family.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Janszoon

IIRC correctly the coastal states did do some trading by water but it was coastal.

Is there any way to start building up a naval tradition in West Africa? Like, say, if trade routes were blocked?

Any ideas on how to keep any or all the Maghreb states powerful enough to compete with the European powers? Do they need to unify?
 
The African states south of the Sahara, I can't see a reasonable POD that would get them to become naval powers or overseas adventurers until very late in the game. Unless I'm mistaken there's practically no tradition of bluewater sailing in medieval Africa south of the Maghreb. Riverine and coastal experience, yes. It would have to be among the Berbers (who historically did settle the Canary Isles centuries before your parameters) or other N. Africans. You do have wide ranging corsairs operating out of Moroccan ports (the Sale Rovers) in the 17th C. who raided as far as the Americas and Iceland.

There is even a reputed Dutch member of the Rovers who fathered an American family.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Janszoon

So interesting you should mention the Corsair republic of Salé ;) Expect more on this in Minarets of Atlantis in updates to come ;)
 
It wasn't inevitable that the European powers would become so preeminent. There are numerous PODs that could plausibly retard or screw say emerging Spain. An united Al-Andalus and/or Maghrib that could maintain stable institutions would probably look more outwards. I'm not referring to the Almoravids or Almohads, either. Something earlier would be necessary.

The problem with emerging Sahel or W. African States developing a strong nautical tradition is that they were so land focused. Geography influencing socio/political/cultural interests...
 
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Deleted member 67076

It wasn't inevitable that the European powers would become so preeminent. There are numerous PODs that could plausibly retard or screw say emerging Spain. An united Al-Andalus and/or Maghrib that could maintain stable institutions would probably look more outwards. I'm not referring to the Almoravids or Almohads, either. Something earlier would be necessary.

The problem with emerging Sahel or W. African States developing a strong nautical tradition is that they were so land focused. Geography influencing cultural interests...
Hmm, the Marinids had control over everything west of Tunis in the 1340s.

Perhaps if they can keep that for say, a couple decades while having their southern expansions curbed that could be enough to shift the focus towards the sea?

As well, what if the Marinids win the battle of Rio Salado and keep both ends of the straight? The navy was very important in that war. Could that help signal a shift in being a more maritime power?
 
Hmm, the Marinids had control over everything west of Tunis in the 1340s.

Perhaps if they can keep that for say, a couple decades while having their southern expansions curbed that could be enough to shift the focus towards the sea?

As well, what if the Marinids win the battle of Rio Salado and keep both ends of the straight? The navy was very important in that war. Could that help signal a shift in being a more maritime power?

I've wondered about writing an ASB/ISOT timeline around the events of Rio Salado, but I'm unsure if some greater success would necessarily push the Marinids toward the sea.
 
Hmm, the Marinids had control over everything west of Tunis in the 1340s.

Perhaps if they can keep that for say, a couple decades while having their southern expansions curbed that could be enough to shift the focus towards the sea?

As well, what if the Marinids win the battle of Rio Salado and keep both ends of the straight? The navy was very important in that war. Could that help signal a shift in being a more maritime power?

Yes, the Marinids...
The Marinids seemed to have the opportunity to defeat the Castilians in detail before the Portuguese arrived. But I don't really know the fine details of this battle. The Marinid army was formidable at this time and on paper, an equal or match for the Spanish. I don't know enough about the Marinid navy except they (with the navy of Grenada) slaughtered the scurvy-weakened Castilians at the Battle of Algeciras in 1278. And, the Marinids were very commercially oriented, their intervention in the Iberian Peninsula was at least as much about establishing a commercial hegemony as it was about propping up their co-religionist Grenadans.

The Marinids really only seemed to prosper up to the 1350s. They seemed to suffer from many of the same issues that brought down the Caliphate of Cordoba. The ruler giving and ultimately losing real power to their advisors, factionalization, economic downturn plus in the case of the Marinids, the Black Death hit them hard.

All that being said, the Marinids, had some of these issues been addressed, might have offered the basis for what you are seeking.
 
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Deleted member 67076

Yes, the Marinids...
The Marinids seemed to have the opportunity to defeat the Castilians in detail before the Portuguese arrived. But I don't really know the fine details of this battle. The Marinid army was formidable at this time and on paper, an equal or match for the Spanish. I don't know enough about the Marinid navy except they (with the navy of Grenada) slaughtered the scurvy-weakened Castilians at the Battle of Algeciras in 1278. And, the Marinids were very commercially oriented, their intervention in the Iberian Peninsula was at least as much about establishing a commercial hegemony as it was about propping up their co-religionist Grenadans.

The Marinids really only seemed to prosper up to the 1350s. They seemed to suffer from many of the same issues that brought down the Caliphate of Cordoba. The ruler giving and ultimately losing real power to their advisors, factionalization, economic downturn plus in the case of the Marinids, the Black Death hit them hard.

All that being said, the Marinids, had some of these issues been addressed, might have offered the basis for what you are seeking.
The factionism might be nipped in the bud if the Sultan crushed the Arab revolts in Tunisia as that was a blow to the central authority of the state. Didn't help he wasn't that respected.

Perhaps the victory over the Iberians, and the resulting influx of cash and influence that would bring, in addition to crippling his rivals for a while (as Castile was in debt by that point and had their fleet destroyed) might give him theresources to crush the revolt and restore order, which would further solidify his reforms. As such, the state retains its stability and mercantile attitude.
 

dead_wolf

Banned
Legendary Malian ruler Mansa Musa only became king after his predecessor, Abu Bakr II, launched a massive naval expedition to cross the Atlantic.
The ruler who preceded me did not believe that it was impossible to reach the extremity of the ocean that encircles the earth (the Atlantic Ocean). He wanted to reach that (end) and was determined to pursue his plan. So he equipped two hundred boats full of men, and many others full of gold, water and provisions sufficient for several years. He ordered the captain not to return until they had reached the other end of the ocean, or until he had exhausted the provisions and water. So they set out on their journey. They were absent for a long period, and, at last just one boat returned. When questioned the captain replied: 'O Prince, we navigated for a long period, until we saw in the midst of the ocean a great river which flowing massively. My boat was the last one; others were ahead of me, and they were drowned in the great whirlpool and never came out again. I sailed back to escape this current.' But the Sultan would not believe him. He ordered two thousand boats to be equipped for him and his men, and one thousand more for water and provisions. Then he conferred the regency on me for the term of his absence, and departed with his men, never to return nor to give a sign of life.
Further according to Bartolomé de las Casas, a 16th century Dominican priest & historian, Columbus' third voyage was set out partially to test the claims of John II of Portugal that;
canoes had been found which set out from the coast of Guinea [West Africa] and sailed to the west with merchandise
which were further corroborated by, again according to de las Casas, by claims by the natives of Hispaniola that
from the south and the southeast had come black people whose spears were made of a metal called guanín [bronze]
 
Legendary Malian ruler Mansa Musa only became king after his predecessor, Abu Bakr II, launched a massive naval expedition to cross the Atlantic.

Further according to Bartolomé de las Casas, a 16th century Dominican priest & historian, Columbus' third voyage was set out partially to test the claims of John II of Portugal that;

which were further corroborated by, again according to de las Casas, by claims by the natives of Hispaniola that

I will be brief and polite. Most scholars discount that this happened.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Bakr_II

Pay attention to notes and sources in this Wiki entry.
 

SunDeep

Banned
What about the Bidyogo?

The Bidyogo of the Bissagos Islands in Guinea-Bissau, after their navy routed the Portuguese slave merchants who tried to conquer the islands in 1535 (which actually happened IOTL), could have decided to try and get in on the Atlantic slave trade themselves, captured slaves from the mainland in a similar manner to the Sultanate of Zanzibar on the coast of East Africa, and attempted to mount voyages to the New World (either using their own vessels to do so, or commandeering the merchant galleons captured from the Portuguese) to sell their human cargo to the Europeans.

From there, it wouldn't be too far a step to imagine them founding a settlement of their own in the Americas and establishing plantations, particularly in a coastal mangrove region similar to their own native homeland, perhaps in the Amazon or the Honduras. This would hardly be prime real estate for Europeans, meaning that they'd be extremely unlikely to face any real competition over their claim to their newly-carved territory for at least a couple of centuries. It might be hard to keep their hold on the region in the long run, but as long as they keep trade open, with the colony motivating them to keep their navy up to date, it has a chance of slipping under the radar and enduring to the present day.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but their boats were designed for local coasting (large dugouts)and not transatlantic sailing. If they comendeered and mastered Portuguese ships though...

It is also conceivable that European or Maghrebi sailing and boatbuilding tech could reach W. Africa by later medieval times. There were relations and commerce exchanged with various W African kingdoms before the slaving era really kicked off.
 

dead_wolf

Banned
I will be brief and polite. Most scholars discount that this happened.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Bakr_II

Pay attention to notes and sources in this Wiki entry.

I didn't say he did travel to the New World, only that he had sent off in an expedition to such, and that at the time of Columbus that was a perception in the courts of Europe that the West Africans kingdoms were already trading with natives in the Americas. Its a start, have the expedition succeed, by some miracle, and you've got what the OP asked for.

Please pay attention to what other posters are actually stating.
 
I didn't say he did travel to the New World, only that he had sent off in an expedition to such, and that at the time of Columbus that was a perception in the courts of Europe that the West Africans kingdoms were already trading with natives in the Americas. Its a start, have the expedition succeed, by some miracle, and you've got what the OP asked for.

Please pay attention to what other posters are actually stating.

You are being too sensitive. Also plausibility is better for a TL than a miracle.
For example, developing the requisite skills and technology to make a trans-Atlantic voyage or indeed any long distance overseas exploration a real possibility.
 

dead_wolf

Banned
You are being too sensitive.

I'm using the same tone as you did in your first reply. Pot, kettle, etc.

Also plausibility is better for a TL than a miracle.
For example, developing the requisite skills and technology to make a trans-Atlantic voyage or indeed any long distance overseas exploration a real possibility.

Granted, but those require a major restructuring of West African states & societies, which either means a POD far back in time, possibly even a century or more before contact, or a very large POD which suddenly revolutionizes everything, both of which sorta render the question moot as we're looking at a completely different, ATL, version of the Atlantic coast of Africa. My idea requires a very small POD, a simple change, which isn't that far off from possible - Columbus' voyages after all certainly were destined or secured to successful or as influential as they turned out to be. Hell, even getting the Malians to Cape Verge, only about ~700 km away, would be a major game changer, if they successfully discovered and then colonized it nearly a century before the Europeans first showed up there.

Otherwise I'm not really sure how exactly to pull this off without, as I said above, rendering the question moot by mutating the situation in West &/or North Africa so much so as to be completely alien to us IOTL.
 
I'm using the same tone as you did in your first reply. Pot, kettle, etc.

If I had a "tone", I apologize. Generally people who bring up Abu Bakr in this context tend to be advocates of fringe archeology/history.


Granted, but those require a major restructuring of West African states & societies, which either means a POD far back in time, possibly even a century or more before contact, or a very large POD which suddenly revolutionizes everything, both of which sorta render the question moot as we're looking at a completely different, ATL, version of the Atlantic coast of Africa. My idea requires a very small POD, a simple change, which isn't that far off from possible - Columbus' voyages after all certainly were destined or secured to successful or as influential as they turned out to be. Hell, even getting the Malians to Cape Verge, only about ~700 km away, would be a major game changer, if they successfully discovered and then colonized it nearly a century before the Europeans first showed up there.
Otherwise I'm not really sure how exactly to pull this off without, as I said above, rendering the question moot by mutating the situation in West &/or North Africa so much so as to be completely alien to us IOTL.

So, there would need a major restructuring, then. Columbus, Bristol, Basque, Portuguese or Maghrebi sailors were not exactly venturing out into blue water in dugout canoes. Now Malians or someone else from the general region getting to Cabo Verde would be quite a feat but something that might be doable by coasters, yes. On the other side of Africa you have Bantu people making it to Madagascar far earlier and with probably equivalent watercraft (unless they learned from the Australnesians the seacraft that had brought them to the island even earlier). But I'm not sure how useful getting to Cabo Verde would be for the Malians. Why would that be something they could build on? Also, generally speaking, Mali interests lay inland, expanding eastward, controlling trans-saharan trade routes. Mali wouldn't be on my shortlist for states likely to develop a strong maritime interest or tradition.


I see far greater opportunities for peoples further North in Africa (Such as the Marinids) to break out into overseas endeavors. I also believe that the relevant currents and winds might favor the Maghreb and Iberia over the region of Africa Mali held sway when it comes to transatlantic travel. This belief would need to be verified but it is what I suspect.

One W. African possibility I will bring up are the Wolof people, slightly later, more N. and more coastally disposed than the Mali Empire. They had a long history of trading with various N. African polities and later the Portuguese and the possibilities of the diffusion of naval tech shouldn't be discounted. They were reputed as possibly beating the Portuguese and the Arabs (who probably beat the Portuguese) in first visiting Cabo Verde.
 
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Deleted member 67076

Were the Wolof in the Indian Ocean trade? If so, the desire to integrate themselves into that trade network might spur naval reforms and expansion, which could pave the way for some colonization.
 
Were the Wolof in the Indian Ocean trade? If so, the desire to integrate themselves into that trade network might spur naval reforms and expansion, which could pave the way for some colonization.

Not that I know of. At least not in a direct sense. They were probably involved in the medieval slave trade via the Sudan trading routes overland as the Mali Empire did, which fed into the I.O. trade. But the coastal trade involved Maghrebi and later Portuguese shipping.
It would be cool to have roving Wolof prior to the age of exploration.
 
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