Madison and the Republic of West Florida

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_West_Florida

Every book I have read discusses how the Americans were more than happy to let the Americans on West Florida throw the Spanish out. Seems like an early version of the Texas Revolution. My question is why did Madison swoop in so quickly? Reuben Kemper was outside Mobile, but didn't have the supplies to attack. A few shipments of questionable origin and you could be looking at kicking the Spanish out of the whole territory, not just the western half. It may also be possible that the little nation that could might be able to kick the Spanish out of east Florida also.

Bonus question: If Kemper takes mobile, could we be looking at the coastal state of West Florida instead of it being split up and added to three states?
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Can't imagine the population was that significant...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_West_Florida

Every book I have read discusses how the Americans were more than happy to let the Americans on West Florida throw the Spanish out. Seems like an early version of the Texas Revolution. My question is why did Madison swoop in so quickly? Reuben Kemper was outside Mobile, but didn't have the supplies to attack. A few shipments of questionable origin and you could be looking at kicking the Spanish out of the whole territory, not just the western half. It may also be possible that the little nation that could might be able to kick the Spanish out of east Florida also.

Bonus question: If Kemper takes mobile, could we be looking at the coastal state of West Florida instead of it being split up and added to three states?

Can't imagine the population was that significant... not that there were millions in the states that eventually gathered in the territory in question, but presumably even in 1810-20 there was some concern about creating multiple Rhode Islands.

Not quite to the 1 slave state for 1 free state consensus, but presumbly that had some influence as well.

Best,
 
IIRC, the part that was annexed to the Orleans territory had approximately 10,000 residents, including slaves. Since Mobile was the biggest city in the territory, it is possible the whole of West Florida could have had at least 25k-30k. Half of what was necessary to become a state. However it was probably more than the population of most of the Louisiana Territory outside St. Louis and New Madrid. Might be too big to subdivide (yes I know that sounds counter intuitive).
 

TFSmith121

Banned
That's interesting ...

IIRC, the part that was annexed to the Orleans territory had approximately 10,000 residents, including slaves. Since Mobile was the biggest city in the territory, it is possible the whole of West Florida could have had at least 25k-30k. Half of what was necessary to become a state. However it was probably more than the population of most of the Louisiana Territory outside St. Louis and New Madrid. Might be too big to subdivide (yes I know that sounds counter intuitive).

That's interesting ... the borders would essentially close off Alabama and Mississippi (or whatever takes their places) from access to the sea, and although 1810 is well into the federal period, it still seems like something that might be avoided purely on the ground for reducing potential barriers to trade; the rivers (mostly) run north-south as it is on the Gulf Coast.

Best,
 
Not sure what the big deal is for states being closed off from the ports. An American Mobile in one state doesn't mean that another state cant transport goods through there. Think of all the trade that goes through New Orleans, I doubt that most of it comes from Louisiana.

I am assuming with a little support the West Floridians would taken Mobile. I am guessing an American annexation would have played out the same way with the Spanish: Minor grumbling, not much done over it. What if Madison decided to go for broke, and let west Florida take east Florida before annexing them both. You can make a (slightly) dubious claim about boundaries of the Louisiana purchase including west Florida, but no one would say they included key west. Would Spain have been more hostile? Could they have legitimately done anything about it.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Actually, in 1810, you'd be surprised...

Not sure what the big deal is for states being closed off from the ports. An American Mobile in one state doesn't mean that another state cant transport goods through there. Think of all the trade that goes through New Orleans, I doubt that most of it comes from Louisiana.

I am assuming with a little support the West Floridians would taken Mobile. I am guessing an American annexation would have played out the same way with the Spanish: Minor grumbling, not much done over it. What if Madison decided to go for broke, and let west Florida take east Florida before annexing them both. You can make a (slightly) dubious claim about boundaries of the Louisiana purchase including west Florida, but no one would say they included key west. Would Spain have been more hostile? Could they have legitimately done anything about it.

Actually, in 1810, you'd be surprised... not quite internal tariffs, but given the general weaknesses of the national institutions at the time, the coastal states all had hinterlands, presumably by design.

Best,
 
I will say this: had Mobile been part of the West Florida revolt we'd have definitely seen a State of West Florida developed, as noted in the original post.

They'd be forced to claim just the 1763 borders - the extended 1767 northern portion of the old colony made up the original bit of Mississippi Territory, and precisely that to forestall the Spanish claim there until the 1795 Pinckney Treaty saw Spain give that up - but this state would probably include Pensacola within its claim until its capture in 1818 and official cession in the Transcontinental Treaty the next year.

Since in this scenario if Mobile was taken and is the biggest town in the state's initial controlled area, it would likely be capital - and as the center of the state's claimed area, logically so. Furthermore, Jbsmagic noted that just St. Francisville and Mobile was about 30K at best - it wouldn't A) be too hard to throw in Pensacola for more people and B ) see the state itself grow into the proper population limit soon enough (I think one or two states were admitted despite being under the 60K limit precisely due to expectations of future growth to tip them over).

I also agree that it wouldn't ultimately affect *Mississippi and *Alabama's trade too much: witness landlocked Pennsylvania versus Delaware, the Great Lakes states via the Erie Canal, and Chicago being the northern port for the Mississippi River's entryway into the Great Lakes. Those examples span multiple states and even regions and yet commerce happens well enough.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Fair enough, but Pennsylvania is not landlocked

I also agree that it wouldn't ultimately affect *Mississippi and *Alabama's trade too much: witness landlocked Pennsylvania versus Delaware, the Great Lakes states via the Erie Canal, and Chicago being the northern port for the Mississippi River's entryway into the Great Lakes. Those examples span multiple states and even regions and yet commerce happens well enough.

Fair enough, but Pennsylvania is not landlocked. Philadelphia has been a major port since pretty much Day One.

Best,
 
I would think that a state of west Florida would be a major shipping state, with its various ports. Could we be looking at the slave holding version of a Massachusetts? The area is covered with the southern live oak trees, the same ones used to build the USS constitution (which gave it its name old ironsides). I dont know that it ever had a booming plantation economy, like the Carolinas or even Louisiana.
 
Not sure what the big deal is for states being closed off from the ports. An American Mobile in one state doesn't mean that another state cant transport goods through there. Think of all the trade that goes through New Orleans, I doubt that most of it comes from Louisiana.

It was a very big deal, actually. Its the reason why Alabama and Mississippi have that little notch each. Many states have had their territory nudged to give them ocean/lake shores. Illinois is a perfect example, as well. It was originally not supposed to go so far north as to include Chicago.
 
Why was it such a big deal though? One state can't close its ports to another state or tax goods that go through its ports. If it could New Orleans would be one of the richest cities in the world and not...New Orleans.
 
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