Madeleine of Valois does not die

Madeleine of Valois was the daughter of Francis I of France, and the first wife of James V of Scotland whom she married in 1537, she died later that year from a fever I believe, the marriage was without issue.

Now, what if instead of dying in 1537, she lives on alongside her husband past 1542 and has issue?

Their children:

James, Duke of Rothesay b 1538

Alexander b 1540

Margaret born 1542

Robert b 1546



What consequences could a surviving Madeleine and a surviving James V have for Scotland and England?
 
By doing so, you'd be robbing us of Mary, Queen of Scots.

Assuming a butterfly net:

If their sons live to adulthood, I can see them pulling off a war on succession disputing Elizabeth's inheritance on the basis that her birth was illegitimate in the Catholic rite.

Alternatively, Elizabeth shacks up with one of the Stewart boys to prevent said war from happening. If she marries a younger son, there would be no Union of Crowns.

But without a butterfly net, Edward VI might live longer and marry *Margaret.
 
By doing so, you'd be robbing us of Mary, Queen of Scots.

Assuming a butterfly net:

If their sons live to adulthood, I can see them pulling off a war on succession disputing Elizabeth's inheritance on the basis that her birth was illegitimate in the Catholic rite.

Alternatively, Elizabeth shacks up with one of the Stewart boys to prevent said war from happening. If she marries a younger son, there would be no Union of Crowns.

But without a butterfly net, Edward VI might live longer and marry *Margaret.

Interesting, so would Scotland remain Catholic do you think if James V lives longer?
 
James V of Scotland (b.1512: d.1549) m. Madeline de Valois (b.1520) (a)

1a) James VI of Scotland (b.1538) m. Helena of Austria (b.1543) (a)

1a) Charles Stuart, Duke of Rothesay (b.1562)

2a) Princess Margaret Stuart (b.1565)

3a) Prince James Stuart (b.1566: d.1567)

4a) Prince Henry Stuart (b.1568: d.1573)

5a) Princess Elizabeth Stuart (b.1570)

6a) Miscarriage (c.1574)​

2a) Alexander Stuart, Duke of Ross (b.1540) m. Catherine Grey (b.1540) (a)

1a) Lord William Stuart of Ross (b.1560)

2a) Lady Janet Stuart of Ross (b.1562)

3a) Lord Reginald Stuart of Ross (b.1563)

4a) Stillborn Boy (c.1566)

5a) Lady Frances Stuart of Ross (b.1567)​

3a) Princess Margaret Stuart (b.1542) m. Frederick II of Denmark (b.1534) (a)

1a) Margaret of Denmark (b.1560)

2a) Elizabeth of Denmark (b.1561)

3a) Dorothea of Denmark (b.1563: d.1566)

4a) Christian of Denmark (b.1566)

5a) Augusta of Denmark (b.1568: d.1568)

6a) Frederick of Denmark (b.1570)

7a) Madeline of Denmark (b.1571)

8a) Charles of Denmark (b.1573: d.1575)

9a) Mary of Denmark (b.1575)

10a) Christine of Denmark (b.1576)

11a) Hedwig of Denmark (b.1578: d.1578)

12a) John of Denmark (b.1579)

13a) Anne of Denmark (b.1582: d.1582)​

4a) Robert Stuart (b.1546)​
 
James V of Scotland (b.1512: d.1549) m. Madeline de Valois (b.1520) (a)

1a) James VI of Scotland (b.1538) m. Helena of Austria (b.1543) (a)

1a) Charles Stuart, Duke of Rothesay (b.1562)

2a) Princess Margaret Stuart (b.1565)

3a) Prince James Stuart (b.1566: d.1567)

4a) Prince Henry Stuart (b.1568: d.1573)

5a) Princess Elizabeth Stuart (b.1570)

6a) Miscarriage (c.1574)​

2a) Alexander Stuart, Duke of Ross (b.1540) m. Catherine Grey (b.1540) (a)

1a) Lord William Stuart of Ross (b.1560)

2a) Lady Janet Stuart of Ross (b.1562)

3a) Lord Reginald Stuart of Ross (b.1563)

4a) Stillborn Boy (c.1566)

5a) Lady Frances Stuart of Ross (b.1567)​

3a) Princess Margaret Stuart (b.1542) m. Frederick II of Denmark (b.1534) (a)

1a) Margaret of Denmark (b.1560)

2a) Elizabeth of Denmark (b.1561)

3a) Dorothea of Denmark (b.1563: d.1566)

4a) Christian of Denmark (b.1566)

5a) Augusta of Denmark (b.1568: d.1568)

6a) Frederick of Denmark (b.1570)

7a) Madeline of Denmark (b.1571)

8a) Charles of Denmark (b.1573: d.1575)

9a) Mary of Denmark (b.1575)

10a) Christine of Denmark (b.1576)

11a) Hedwig of Denmark (b.1578: d.1578)

12a) John of Denmark (b.1579)

13a) Anne of Denmark (b.1582: d.1582)​

4a) Robert Stuart (b.1546)​

Interesting no marriage with England? Do you think the two might come to blows?
 
Elizabeth isn't going to marry. And I think that James VI would recognise that fairly quickly and go off somewhere else.

Hmm interesting, I note you had James V die in 1549, why is that if I might ask?

And okay, would James VI grow up Catholic then do you think?
 
Hmm interesting, I note you had James V die in 1549, why is that if I might ask?

And okay, would James VI grow up Catholic then do you think?

No particular reason. I just think a man as unlucky as James V wouldn't live to old age.
 
No particular reason. I just think a man as unlucky as James V wouldn't live to old age.

Aha fair, and as for his son? Considering the times they are living in, do you think that he'd grow up Protestant or Catholic?
 
Aha fair, and as for his son? Considering the times they are living in, do you think that he'd grow up Protestant or Catholic?

Mary Stuart was Catholic, although that could be as a result of her domiciling in France. Madeleine is Catholic, James V is Catholic. Most likely James VI grows up as nominally Catholic at best, Inquisition-type Catholic at worst, and if the former, perhaps playing the Protestant lords off against the Catholic lords to achieve more power for the king who up until then, is more primus inter pares in Scotland than anything else IIRC. Or he becomes known as James Bloodhead or something when he attempts to extinguish Protestantism entirely, and dies, much like his father and paternal grandfather, a broken man whose dreams have turned to ash.
 
Mary Stuart was Catholic, although that could be as a result of her domiciling in France. Madeleine is Catholic, James V is Catholic. Most likely James VI grows up as nominally Catholic at best, Inquisition-type Catholic at worst, and if the former, perhaps playing the Protestant lords off against the Catholic lords to achieve more power for the king who up until then, is more primus inter pares in Scotland than anything else IIRC. Or he becomes known as James Bloodhead or something when he attempts to extinguish Protestantism entirely, and dies, much like his father and paternal grandfather, a broken man whose dreams have turned to ash.

Okay interesting, having him be nominally catholic would be interesting, especially if he's in line for the throne of England
 
Might the survival of Madeleine of Valois and the survival of James V and their children, create alternate situations within England then? During the reign of Henry VIII and Edward VI for example?

Would ttl James VI support Mary?
 
Might the survival of Madeleine of Valois and the survival of James V and their children, create alternate situations within England then? During the reign of Henry VIII and Edward VI for example?

Would ttl James VI support Mary?

Probably not. This is different to OTL where Mary is the senior most due to the fact that all the claimants are female. James V/VI are both male (albeit foreign and through the distaff line) which means that SOME of Mary's support from OTL might defect if they hold to the belief that a woman is incapable of ruling or that the trade union of kings is a boys only club.

However, Scotland IS allied with Francd rather than the Habsburgs, who ARE going to support Mary OTOH. Once Mary dies, however (if she still dies childless, which is likely) it's open season. Margaret Douglas is domestic born and Catholic. Elizabeth is legally a bastard and religiously questionable. James VI is foreign born, male AND Catholic. Maybe Jamie marries Elizabeth, a female born Darnleigh/Howard (if Marge marries a Howard like she wanted), or a Habsburg archduchess to bolster his claim to the English throne. Otherwise, the Habsburgs will support Elizabeth a la OTL.
 
Probably not. This is different to OTL where Mary is the senior most due to the fact that all the claimants are female. James V/VI are both male (albeit foreign and through the distaff line) which means that SOME of Mary's support from OTL might defect if they hold to the belief that a woman is incapable of ruling or that the trade union of kings is a boys only club.

However, Scotland IS allied with Francd rather than the Habsburgs, who ARE going to support Mary OTOH. Once Mary dies, however (if she still dies childless, which is likely) it's open season. Margaret Douglas is domestic born and Catholic. Elizabeth is legally a bastard and religiously questionable. James VI is foreign born, male AND Catholic. Maybe Jamie marries Elizabeth, a female born Darnleigh/Howard (if Marge marries a Howard like she wanted), or a Habsburg archduchess to bolster his claim to the English throne. Otherwise, the Habsburgs will support Elizabeth a la OTL.

Okay interesting, will certainly cause some tension during Elizabeth's early reign. I've noted that Kynan has James VI married to Helen of Austria, daughter of Emperor Ferdinand I, considering she was considered too frail to marry someone in otl, would this match go ahead this time around?
 
Okay interesting, will certainly cause some tension during Elizabeth's early reign. I've noted that Kynan has James VI married to Helen of Austria, daughter of Emperor Ferdinand I, considering she was considered too frail to marry someone in otl, would this match go ahead this time around?

I just went for an unmarried Austrian Princess. Any of them would have worked.
 
Ah okay, so would a marriage to an Austrian Princess most definitely happen then?

Well, either them or the French. But I can see, if the Auld Alliance doesn't help him too much, James V betro thing his son Hapsburg way and since the Austrians are just littered with options, that'd probably happen.
 
Well, either them or the French. But I can see, if the Auld Alliance doesn't help him too much, James V betro thing his son Hapsburg way and since the Austrians are just littered with options, that'd probably happen.

Okay interesting, so one of Helen or her sisters who are James's age.

I do wonder how things might play out with regards to the Isles, and the whole issue of piracy there.
 
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