Madagascar Plan

Sending four million people to an alien climate with what they can carry is pretty much mass-murder, anyway.

True. Nevertheless, it's still a difference whether many died or all died.

No Madasgar without war.
[(QUOTE]

Obviously true.

No war without the final hardening of Nazi Jewish policy into an alternative more "useful", simple, and workable than whacky schemes such as the Madagascar plan.

What? Simply no. Even if, by whatever reason, all european Jews would leave Europe in 1930 the Nazis would still go to war to reverse Versailles and to get Lebensraum in the East.

As I have explained, Nazi policy in all spheres shows a clear radicalisation with time. That was how the regime worked. Through Gleichschaltung, it subordinated and subverted anything that could act as an internal break. Its growing confidence led to more and more reckless re-armament and foreign policy grandstanding, which made a war unavoidable; the cover of war allowed further radicalisation. In all aspects of state life, the radical solution became favoured owing the the bizarre system of "working towatds the Fuehrer".

Good point.

I've already traced how Nazi policy went from slogans to boycotts to sergration to mob violence. Personally, I think the mob violence is th eturning point, but by the invasion of the USSR it had already arrived at genocide.

I agree. Once the war with the Soviet union starts, we'll have things like the Kommissarbefehl and the Nazis have to deal with millions of Soviet PoWs. Thus, implementation of the Madagaskar plan must already have started before the war with the Soviet union begins, and the Germans must be powerful enough to ignore international outcry and boycotts by then as well, which in turn is ASB.

If you change the whole nature of the Nazi regime, it will neither get itself into the same royal foreign policy mess-up or come up with something so absurd as the Madagascar plan.

True, yet nevertheless you can make up a Nazi TL which does not end in the Holocaust as we know it, but in which the majority of Jews is deported - or bought out, maybe, from a foreign power. The primary directive of the Nazis was to get the Jews out of the Reich - and also out of the potential Lebensraum. Even many Nazis were - at first - terrified by the Holocaust. As you previously stated, this was a result of gradual radicalization. If at some time before the attack on the Soviet union, which implies large scale genocide pretty much from the beginning and therefore a massive leap in radicalization, the Nazis had an option to get rid of the Jews without mass murder, I think they would have done that. Although, obviously, implemented in a thoroughly inhumane way.
 

Dialga

Banned
Regardless of how this was done, would an alternate Jewish homeland (Nazi-inspired or otherwise) butterfly away the troubles the Middle East experienced in the latter half of the 20th Century IOTL?
 
Regardless of how this was done, would an alternate Jewish homeland (Nazi-inspired or otherwise) butterfly away the troubles the Middle East experienced in the latter half of the 20th Century IOTL?

As such an alternate Jewish homeland can only emerge if the Nazis win at least initially, it depends on whether they are defeated later.

If they are not defeated, and the middle East is in Nazi hands, it's a lot worse than OTL. If they are defeated, there's still the possibility that Israel emerges if the Jews leave their enforced homeland. If they stay in, say, Madagaskar, you exchanged the middle East problems with problems in Madagaskar.

Furthermore, given OTL, note that the Arab leaders will probably cause more than enough enough trouble themselves even without Israel around, and Islamists may still emerge.
 
...
True, yet nevertheless you can make up a Nazi TL which does not end in the Holocaust as we know it, but in which the majority of Jews is deported - or bought out, maybe, from a foreign power. The primary directive of the Nazis was to get the Jews out of the Reich - and also out of the potential Lebensraum. Even many Nazis were - at first - terrified by the Holocaust. As you previously stated, this was a result of gradual radicalization. If at some time before the attack on the Soviet union, which implies large scale genocide pretty much from the beginning and therefore a massive leap in radicalization, the Nazis had an option to get rid of the Jews without mass murder, I think they would have done that. Although, obviously, implemented in a thoroughly inhumane way.

Well said. The assumption that the Nazi regime will evolve the same regardless of changes in their circumstances reflects an obviously understandable bias against the Nazi regime. But one that shouldn't stand in the way of good AH. (or even bad AH for that matter;)).

Personally I find the idea of a differant Jewish homeland interesting. THe effects, not so much how you get there.
 
As such an alternate Jewish homeland can only emerge if the Nazis win at least initially, it depends on whether they are defeated later.

If they are not defeated, and the middle East is in Nazi hands, it's a lot worse than OTL. If they are defeated, there's still the possibility that Israel emerges if the Jews leave their enforced homeland. If they stay in, say, Madagaskar, you exchanged the middle East problems with problems in Madagaskar.

Likely. I suspect, seeing that there are surronded by black former colonies, instead of muslim arab states, that the trouble will be sort of connected to the whole South Africa aparthide issue.

Two white dominated western enclaves in a rapidly decolonizing Africa.

Unless in TTL, for some reason decolonization doesn't happen...:confused:


Furthermore, given OTL, note that the Arab leaders will probably cause more than enough enough trouble themselves even without Israel around, and Islamists may still emerge.[/QUOTE]
 
Very interesting, Fenwick. I like that you spell out the details of the plan. Where did this info come from? I'm very interested in reading up on it for similar developments in Viva Balbo.
 
Well said. The assumption that the Nazi regime will evolve the same regardless of changes in their circumstances reflects an obviously understandable bias against the Nazi regime. But one that shouldn't stand in the way of good AH. (or even bad AH for that matter;)).

Personally I find the idea of a differant Jewish homeland interesting. THe effects, not so much how you get there.

That is an issue of mine. Writing TL's for many stop once they say Germany wins, or that the UK does not fight on. I am writing this as more of an arguement of what would occur so I could avoid the typical problems of a more rigid X occured so Y happened followed by Z TL.
 

Emera78

Banned
Sending four million people to an alien climate with what they can carry is pretty much mass-murder, anyway.
Make that around 9 million. That is the number of Jews in territories under German control.
The idea that Nazis would actually bother or have capabilities to transport that many people to Madagascar seems very far fetched.
The assumption that the Nazi regime will evolve the same regardless of changes in their circumstances reflects an obviously understandable bias against the Nazi regime.
The POD is too late. Perhaps a Nazi regime without Hitler, but with Goering in charge woud beheave in different(but still authoritarian) way.
 
World in a Vacuum
It would be simple to say that a Nazi created Jewish homeland centered upon the idea of limiting Jewish interaction with the outside world would not be effected by anything the Third Reich did not want involved. Yet this neglects the rather indepth support systems that occur for any ethnic group,let alone the Jews. It is forseeable in a world were Jews are offered a homeland yet which requires giving up much to leave Europe, that Jews in other nations would assist in the funding. However one must be aware of the anti-semetic feelings for much of the world.

The UK faced with a strong and powerful Germany would care more for the maintaince of its Empire then the plight of millions of German or Eastern European Jews. The United States had numerous chances OTL to accept Jewish refugees prior to WWII and with the option of an actual Homeland for Jews it seems the under current of racism would appear to block major immigration attempts. Europe itself is even harder to explain in terms of how it would react and accept Jewish immigrants. The Vichy France regime had concentration camps established for Jews, and in 1942 sent almost 100,000 to Germany as slave labor, out of the total number of 350,000 Jews. As the majority lived in or around Paris it is hard to say what they will do. For Vichy France is a puppet, yet with the "victory" over the UK the continued occupation of northern France is not needed (and if it does remain a few bases will work instead of total occupation). So unless the regime suddenly decides to work towards removing a large number it seems unlikely many Jews will be forced to leave by French authorities, however German demands could easily force their hand. The rest of the occupied areas seem to be more then willing to deport their Jewish populations as - once more looking to OTL as a guide- the Netherlands for example had 75% of it's Jewish population murdered. Using figures from the Wannsee Conference the plan to remove 4 million Jews in four years still leaves 5-6 million Jews remaining in Eastern Europe.

Another thing to look upon is the way Axis members treated the Jews. Out of all only Italy and Japan seemed to favor a softer touch. Italy did in fact have anti-Jewish laws in 1938 but by most accounts they avoided the harsher methods of the Germans. According to the American Holocaust Memorial Museum "did not willingly cooperate in the Nazi plan to kill the Jews of Europe. Italians generally refused to participate in genocide, or to permit deportations from Italy . . . to the Nazi extermination camps. Italian military officers and officials usually protected Jews. . . Between 1941 and 1943, thousands of Jews escaped to Italy and Italian-occupied territory from German-occupied territory”.It was not until 1943 with the fall of Mussolini did more aggressive Jewish deportation methods occur. So with this in mind it is fair to say that Italy could possibly be a minor safe haven for European Jews which wish to escape going to Madagascar. While numbers of Jews in Italy have always been small the vast bulk tended to be skilled labor which Italian immigration authorities tended to smile upon.

The next example is Japan who encouraged Jews to come to Manchuria to live and improve the local economy. Such actions were motivated by a racist view on political and economic prowess of the Jewish people. Some even assumed that by rescuing European Jews from the Nazis, Japan would gain unwavering and eternal favor from American Jewry. This was called the Fugu Plan, and it does show another Axis member willing to assist in taking in Jewish refugees. This hinges upon if Japan goes forward with Pearl Harbor, or if they neglect such a plan as the Soviet Union falls in 1941.

British Palestine or Madagascar
Once France signs over Madagascar to the Germans the first obvious question will be "Why should we go?" Some Jewish community leaders, as well as those in charge of the various ghetto Judenrat's would push for the idea of moving to Palestine. After all the idea it is closer, and a traditional homeland. More over it already has Jews living there. This fails for two reasons in the world described; First it belongs to the British and as discussed already after losing Europe to the Nazi's there would be much concern for maintaining its colonial Empire. Adding more Jews to the region would do nothing but increase the tensions already there. While it is possible for the Nazi's to have "conquered" the Middle East, such a thing seems unlikely as the Arab world seemed more then willing to work with the Nazi's the ideals of the ba'ath party being one prime example. At best former French mandates would be independent regions, yet this is just an example. The second reason is that such an action would be dangerous in the eyes of the Nazi party. Think for a moment of what removing the Jews from Europe means to a person raised on a diet of "they stabbed us in the back," and the thought of turning millions of Jews towards a former enemy suddenly seems like letting a snake loose in ones backyard.

This however does not limit Jews with economic means the chance to leave Germany on their own. Obviously some will have the funds open to travel to different places and take advantage of such a thing. The number however does not seem to be very high due to the practice of the Third Reich in limiting the funds allowed to take out of Germany by refugees. As the Madagascar Planned somewhat depended on having the Jews pay their own way through taxation, and confiscating property permitting larg numbers to leave with funds in tow will be blocked in every possible method.

Banking for Life
For the sake of arguement the planning and preperation is finished in full by mid-1942. Already the Jews of Europe are being rounded up to a greater degree not to outright murder, but to force into boats and send south. Conditions in such camps are awful, yet at the same time their is a somewhat happier atmosphere amongst the people as the centeral goal is to get them away from the Nazi's. Many Jews entering such camps, or already established ghettos give up money, gold rings, jewels, stocks, property, and more all of which is to be put inside the Bank of the Jews. In practice however only 10-30% actually makes it in as the bulk of what is gathered is personal property which cannot be converted.

Even in the face of this the Bank of the Jews works towards its central goal of establishing Madagascar. Inside of Germany men seek out transport ships yet they seek the lowest bids possible as they search the merchant marines of all Axis nations. The former Soviet Union will have a large number of ships to use, yet in terms of simple transports looking to France, or Italy may be possible. However given the way typical high profile projects occur the Germans will try for something local. Thus with ships selected the first group of settlers can move out to Madagascar. Tens of thousands of Jews are taken to areas in the Balkans near the Adriatic Sea, from here 3-5,000 people are put upon transports and sent south. If they go around Africa the trip can take upwards of six weeks, while going through the Suez Canal makes it but two weeks. What disease that was not picked up in the camps prior to going to Madagascar will be caught here. Cramped quarters combined limited support ensures the spread of disease. While death is bound to occur it seems unlikely that a large number of Jews will die in transit.

At maximum capacity it will take 200 ships, each making 8 trips to Madagascar, to move 1,000,000 Jews a year. This will be a serious undertaking, yet at the same time it will be an economic boost for the shipping industry. This means that money spent upon deporting the Jews will be returned to the Germany economy, thus making it able to support itself atleast in the short term.

Speaking of economics when the Jews get off the boats in 1942 they will be treated in a fashion similar to those who arrived in Poland. First they will turn in what money they have to the Madagascar based Bank of the Jews, and in return accept scrip, or local currency. The Madagascar Plan had conditions in it which would create a local currency which would be illegal to use outside of Madagascar. Such currency was to achieve three goals; limiting black market exchanges with Europe, creating a sense of identity for the Jews, and ensuring dependence upon the German controlled banking system. The sense of identity was rooted in Territorialism. This was a Jewish political movement calling for creation of a sufficiently large and compact Jewish territory -not necessarily in the Land of Israel and not necessarily fully autonomous- around 1903 by various Zionists. In any matter a single Reichsmark would equal 4 to 10 Madagaskarmark's with the Bank of the Jews printing and collecting funds a will to maintain the exchange rate. This was to make it easier upon German merchants by having the local currency always be weaker then that in European thus encouraging trade over long distances.

Once this is down settling in will occur. This will be very hard the first few years. First jobs will be limited to what is already upon Madagascar, and as the bulk is farming the level of skilled labor may go to waste. Those first arriving will have it the easiest as space is not very cramped. The Judenrat will be hiring people to take over administration duties which the French once held, while doctors, engineers, and teachers will always have a place. Disease will be a major issue following the long boat ride to Madagascar. Like in Polish ghettos attempts will be made to isolate ill people as soon as possible yet even then the question of medical supplies becomes important. As time goes on some level of economy will be established and thus allow for purchasing medicine. As with many things it will no doubt be expensive yet a small amount can ensure that hundreds of thousands do not die. It seems cold to think of only ten thousand dying a year as accepted but it would be unavoided unless the Germans took considerable care to limit harm, which seems doubtful.

Tensions begin
OTL tells us that when the colonial masters leave the locals rise up. Madagascar experinced this in 1948 with the Malagasy Uprising. Such an act was for independence, yet in this situation violence will be different as it will occur over living space. One could argue the turmoil of the early years of Israel could trouble Madagascar. However two major differences are present, the first being that a world power is backing the Jew's and the second is that the infastructure to hold down the area is already present. The Malagasy mainly live in the West, while the more modern cities in the East were dominated by the French, and French loyalists. Here the first year sees the 1 million Jews clearly outnumbered by 4 million Malagasy. German occupation forces (as listed above) would be in a superior position for a traditional war, yet colonial fights tend to be guerilla wars.

It could be a general uprising, yet the time for planning is not yet there, so picture small areas of trouble through Madagascar. Germans will not have the forces to hold down every single city and rural town however brutal occupation tactics can make up for this. Waffen-SS could sweep through Malagasy villages much as they did on the Russian Steppes. It is no doubt ironic to think of Germans working to defend Jews yet in the context of what the Madagascar plan is about it is required. A stable region for Jews to live and thus not "taint" Europe.

Perhaps the oddest occurance would be the realization that Jews would need to defend themselves in face of the Malagasy people. With a number of former colonial troops remaining in Madagascar it is possible to see some level of the Malagasy people side with the Germans for it is simply one European power for another. However OTL shows us just as many if not more will side with natives seeking freedom. This creates the need for a faction to secure Madagascar while allowing Germans the freedom to not keep a large force present. Thus the argument becomes how, and to what extent should one arm the Jews? In Polish ghettos is was very common to have Jewish police, selected by the Judenrat, approved by the RHSA, and bringing down harsh punishments upon the Jews of the ghetto. It is not hard to expand upon such a policy in allowing Jews some part in securing their "homeland." While arguements can be made in such an action being against the SS and the Nazi's as a whole one need only look to the Ukrainian SS to see the ideology of the Third Reich tended to be a moving target.
 
True. Nevertheless, it's still a difference whether many died or all died.

True.

What? Simply no. Even if, by whatever reason, all european Jews would leave Europe in 1930 the Nazis would still go to war to reverse Versailles and to get Lebensraum in the East.

Sorry, poor phrasing there, since I reversed the causality of my pairs: the point is that the Nazis can't get Madagascar without fighting a war, and once they start fighting a war, their Jewish policy will as a result go to the next gear. I was using my remarks about Poland as evidence for my belief.

As you previously stated, this was a result of gradual radicalization. If at some time before the attack on the Soviet union, which implies large scale genocide pretty much from the beginning and therefore a massive leap in radicalization, the Nazis had an option to get rid of the Jews without mass murder, I think they would have done that. Although, obviously, implemented in a thoroughly inhumane way.

I agree. There's always a way to change things, and the Nazi regime was running in the fast track OTL, from the opportune Reichstag fire to its repeated foreign policy coups. Slowing it down could change a lot of outcomes.
 

Keenir

Banned
Make that around 9 million. That is the number of Jews in territories under German control.
The idea that Nazis would actually bother or have capabilities to transport that many people to Madagascar seems very far fetched.

force France to do it - that keeps the French busy (and ties the Brits' hands in regard to French shipping), while meaning that Germany doesn't have to foot the travel bills.
 
A question:
Would have been better to establish a new country for the some millions of Jews
Madagascar or Kimberly and Pilbara regions in Australia?
In which the settlement was better for the safe and the future prosperity?

A homeland in the Australian Kimberly and Pilbara regions.
It covers an area of 423,517 square kilometres (163,521 sq mi), which is about three times the size of England or comparable to the size of California or 15% larger than Japan


https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=146015
 
A question:
Would have been better to establish a new country for the some millions of Jews
Madagascar or Kimberly and Pilbara regions in Australia?
In which the settlement was better for the safe and the future prosperity?

[/SIZE][/FONT]

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=146015

This was also part of the territorialist movement, yet in this the issue will become the UK giving up land of a dominion for use by the Germans. Even as a dumping ground and not an attempt at government you still face the matter of why would the UK give the Germans such a thing? Australia is far from Europe, and the basics I presented for letting this plan go through has the UK in a position to say no to just about anything the Germans could ask.

Also Madagascar is roughly the size of France. While farmlands are limited in terms of grazing land it is rather open.
 

Cook

Banned
Wasn't there an alternative plan to send the Jews to Uganda? Or was during a different decade?

Uganda and Wyndam were offered to Baron Rothschild and the Zionist movement by the British as alternatives to Palestine.
 
the point is that the Nazis can't get Madagascar without fighting a war, and once they start fighting a war, their Jewish policy will as a result go to the next gear.

Absolutely true, yet "the next gear" is not necessarily the Holocaust as we know it. After all, even some German Jews did not believe that it could go any worse than the Kristallnacht.

The problem is that there exists only a very small window that makes an alternative plan realistic. Conquering Poland obviously made it worse for the Jews, as the Nazis now had millions in their occupied territories. And they pretty much immediately started mass murderings. However, the industrial mass murder of the Holocaust only started after the attack on the Soviet Union. If by whatever reason Britain accepts a cease fire in 1940 or early 1941, this provides access to Madagaskar - or some other Jewish homeland. By then, already thousands of Jews would have been killed in Poland, and many thousands more will die even if the Nazis launch their expulsion under international observation. But millions could escape.

The problem is that timelines in which the Nazis defeat Britain prior to 1941 or only get a cease fire but at the same time have full access to Madagaskar, Palestine or Uganda are probably ASB.

Nevertheless, to provide a good example: If Blairwitch had Hitler killed in 1941 in his (very good) "Manstein in Africa"-Timeline, the Nazis would hold Palestine prior to the attack on the Soviet union. Question is whether the powerful generals would allow for a Holocaust without Hitler around to sanction it if alternative measures were available.
 
Wasn't there an alternative plan to send the Jews to Uganda? Or was during a different decade?

That was pre-1900. Although there remains a rather large African Jewish population around that region, making another possible route for Jews.
 

Al-Buraq

Banned
They'd have to fight the Malay who have lived on the island for the past thousand years first.

Malay? Part of the population may be descended from Austronesian (Borneo/New Guinea) stock--but to suggest that they are Malay would get you swift kick from anyone from KL.
 
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