Madagascar plan... without hurry.

Hitler wanted the Jews DEAD, simple as that. whether that was being worked to death as slave labour, starving to death in the ghettos, being shot/burned by Einsatzgruppen or gassed in the death camps there was a singular simple objective. The Madagascar plan was just an attempt to shift blame, 'well we wouldn't have to be so mean to the Jews if you had just allowed us to ship them out', and you seem to have bought into it wholesale.
That's not necessarily true. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functionalism_versus_intentionalism
 

Well that kind of misses the point, there may or not have been a masterplan but there was certainly a goal. You can reasonably argue that in the early years there was a rather ad hoc approach to the 'problem' that was systematized after Wannasee. Hitler made it clear what he wanted and some of his lower level functionaries may well have tried to curry favour by acting on their own intiative, this created issues of its own that lead to the organized plan so as the article you link points out its neither purely one nor the other.

The notion that one of the reasons for the Final Solution is that the Nazi's had nowhere else to put the Jews is the part I was objecting to.
 
Well that kind of misses the point, there may or not have been a masterplan but there was certainly a goal. You can reasonably argue that in the early years there was a rather ad hoc approach to the 'problem' that was systematized after Wannasee. Hitler made it clear what he wanted and some of his lower level functionaries may well have tried to curry favour by acting on their own intiative, this created issues of its own that lead to the organized plan so as the article you link points out its neither purely one nor the other.

The notion that one of the reasons for the Final Solution is that the Nazi's had nowhere else to put the Jews is the part I was objecting to.
Ah okay, I did miss the point.:eek:
 
Well that kind of misses the point, there may or not have been a masterplan but there was certainly a goal. You can reasonably argue that in the early years there was a rather ad hoc approach to the 'problem' that was systematized after Wannasee. Hitler made it clear what he wanted and some of his lower level functionaries may well have tried to curry favour by acting on their own intiative, this created issues of its own that lead to the organized plan so as the article you link points out its neither purely one nor the other.

The notion that one of the reasons for the Final Solution is that the Nazi's had nowhere else to put the Jews is the part I was objecting to.

But that was one of their reasons every time they would expel a certain number they would soon enough conquer more territory with several times more that those they had expelled. Facing absorbing even more in a victory over the Soviets Heydrich called Wansee. In a horribly f!@#ed up way they panicked. I never argued on the desire I argue that the idea of systemic mass murder ala camps didn't come around till Wansee killing them all wholsesale wasn't on the cards till 41 and till then they were open to a plethora of ideas regardless of how ridiculous.

As for the plan's failure being used as some form of excuse that never entered into my train of thought till you brought it up.
 

Angrybird

Banned
Plus, the Madagascar Plan was basically mass murder anyways. Madagascar couldn't hold 9.5 million extra people, and so most Jews would die en route or die on the island itself. It was basically going to be the world's largest concentration camp.

Not defending the M-plan; but historically Madagascars population increased from 4 million in 1950 to 23 million in 2015.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Madagascar

So if a resettlement is done right over the course of 20 years then the island certainly can hold an additional 10 million people.

Ofc the Nazis would not have done things right since they had no regard for the lives of Jews.
 
Not defending the M-plan; but historically Madagascars population increased from 4 million in 1950 to 23 million in 2015.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Madagascar

So if a resettlement is done right over the course of 20 years then the island certainly can hold an additional 10 million people.

Ofc the Nazis would not have done things right since they had no regard for the lives of Jews.

Yeah but the expenditure of resources to create the infrastructure that allows that expanded population to live is not something the Nazi's will commit. If they did go through with shipping Jews there it would just be a more isolated death camp.
 
But that was one of their reasons every time they would expel a certain number they would soon enough conquer more territory with several times more that those they had expelled. Facing absorbing even more in a victory over the Soviets Heydrich called Wansee. In a horribly f!@#ed up way they panicked. I never argued on the desire I argue that the idea of systemic mass murder ala camps didn't come around till Wansee killing them all wholsesale wasn't on the cards till 41 and till then they were open to a plethora of ideas regardless of how ridiculous.

As for the plan's failure being used as some form of excuse that never entered into my train of thought till you brought it up.

I have to ask, do you honestly think the Nazi's were going to ship the Jews to Madagascar so they could live long and happy lives? It would have either have been an massive ghetto where they were starved and worked to death or an isolated death camp so the Nazi's could sell the lie of 'relocation', which is still somewhat popular amongst Holocaust Deniers even without Madagascar.
 
I have to ask, do you honestly think the Nazi's were going to ship the Jews to Madagascar so they could live long and happy lives? It would have either have been an massive ghetto where they were starved and worked to death or an isolated death camp so the Nazi's could sell the lie of 'relocation', which is still somewhat popular amongst Holocaust Deniers even without Madagascar.

For your very peculiar question uhm no...I'm starting to suspect you're not reading or have been ignoring selected sections from my previous posts where I already said that it was going to be a ghetto/camp since after all the SS were going to run it. There is no beautiful bright sunny future for the Jewish people in a Nazi run anything, and I never once hinted that there would be. As for Holocaust denial...that doesn't deserve a place on this let alone this forum :noexpression:
 
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