Machine Gun were Never Invented

What if machine gun were never invented ? The cumbersome Gatling gun become main armaments instead of machine gun, positioned in wheels carriage like a cannon and were used in very limited number. Luxurious machine. Most of the army in 1900 doesn't have any piece of it except USA, British (limited), Germany, A-H (Supplied by Germany), Russia (one or two in every division)... Hence cavalry still a mainstay in a Great War.
 

CalBear

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Rather hard to imagine how the weapon wouldn't be invented. All it really needed was sufficiently strong metals to withstand the pounding.

In any case, if the Gatling was all that was out there, you would see it in substantial numbers. With smokeless powder eliminating the fouling problems of the early models the Gatling gun was a reasonable weapon system, although not as easy to use as the Maxim gun. You would probably see considerable improvement in the original Gatling design, perhaps even early introduction of powered systems. It is even possible that the automatic weapon systems used in defensive positions jump almost instantly to 20mm cannon size instead of rifle caliber as was the case with machine guns.

The fields of WW I are still filled with dead bodies.
 

Stalker

Banned
To ensure that, you'll need an alternate Homo Sapiens or ASB's advanced lobotomy, no less...
 
If no machine guns are available, the Gatling gun will suffice, and see rapid improvements in its designs. There will be different size gatling guns as modifications arise. Heavy and Light weapons. 50cal and 30cal.. 10 barrels vs 20.. Air cooled vs Water cooled etc.. Eventually there will be a powered gatling weapon. No hand crank..


Maybe some clever inventor would mounted a gatling device or two on an armored car? Maybe a tank?

WWI, is still going to be a blood bath. Chemical weapons, Rapid artillery, etc..
 
Are you talking in particular the Maxim gun, the Gardener or the Nordenfelt? They were all successors to the Gatling gun and there were plenty others. The Gatling gun is a 'machine gun' particularly if its 'powered' - so this WI is pretty damn self-defeating if you really look at it closely.
 
And the Gatling wasn't the only machine gun at the time. I took a US Civil War class in High School and did a report on the Gatling Gun... and discovered 7 other rapid-fire weapons like it in existance at the same time (If I remember correctly). I believe at least one was Confederate made, 2 others Union made, 1 British, 1 French, and I forgot about the others.
 
Assuming you mean no machine guns or gatling guns of any kind, this would mean warfare remains conventional (read: early 19th century), with cavalry focus still maintained. But a post-1900 POD isn't going to do that.
 
I realize that if there is no MG, the great war will be stilll a blood bath. But not so bloody like in our TL would they ? :confused:

BTW, what if i add the point that gatling are not too famous or disinterested by the great powers in that time, and they're used only in mid of great wars limited usage only. Like the invention of tank that only used in mid of great wars in our TL. :confused:
 
I realize that if there is no MG, the great war will be stilll a blood bath. But not so bloody like in our TL would they ? :confused:

BTW, what if i add the point that gatling are not too famous or disinterested by the great powers in that time, and they're used only in mid of great wars limited usage only. Like the invention of tank that only used in mid of great wars in our TL. :confused:

BTW I don't think there is anything you can do to plug the holes in this WI. People all forget that the machine gun made its first great impact at the Battle of Omdurman and the Spanish-American War to a lesser degree, not to mention that its use during the Russo-Japanese War, particularly at the siege of Port Arthur, forecasted things to come. The machine gun was primarily picked up by various armies to deal with bush wars in colonial possessions. Younghusband brought one along when the British invaded Tibet.
 
While a pre-1900 pod is required for this, the ramifacations will not be felt till post 1900. I suppose a change in ACW which lowers the need for a rapid fire weapon. Of course taking out the Gatling gun idea, you need to also take out whatever lead tot he discovery of the machien gun in the first place. I think it is difficult to get rid of the weapon.

As the world industrializes, and war becomes mor eand more about countering the infantry charge, the MG is a smart and almost obvious idea. Sure you may have an weapon that is different then we know as an MG but the need for a high rate of fire will never go away as the ACW, Spanish-American war, Austro-Prussian, Franco-Prussian and all those other wars that would almost certainly cause someone to sit back and say "You know what we needed? A gun that fires a lot of ammunition."
 
Then what about, instead of improving the heavy bulky Gatling, scientist and the army are more interested with automatic-rifle and SGG ( Sub Gatling Gun :D ) So in WWI in their TL we can see the semi-automatic rifle and more SGG.
What about that ?
 

CalBear

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I realize that if there is no MG, the great war will be stilll a blood bath. But not so bloody like in our TL would they ? :confused:

BTW, what if i add the point that gatling are not too famous or disinterested by the great powers in that time, and they're used only in mid of great wars limited usage only. Like the invention of tank that only used in mid of great wars in our TL. :confused:

The great killer in WW I was artillery. With the introduction of the high explosive filled shell, shrapnel went from 3 - 4 fairly large, slow moving pieces per shell to hundreds of splinters traveling at higher speed and lethal over a greater radius. Improved fusing also allowed for consistant airbursts, taking maximum advantage of the shrapnel effect. Coupled with rapid firing medium caliber guns (e.g. French 75mm) capable of firing both the HE shell as well as canister, the battlefield came alive with high speed fragments.

The machine gun simply added to the carnage the infantry provided by reliable magazine rifles with reasonable high firing rates (the BEF was able to maintain 20+ rounds per minute aimed fire out to 300+ yards as long as ammunition held out, a figure that is respectable even today since full auto fire from an assault weapon is hugely inaccurate).
 
Notes:
Gatling his self attached an electric motor to his gun in 1893. Gatling is the inventor of the Mini-gun.

The Gatling was used to good effect at San Juan Hill.Even better effect in the Zulu war (Ulandi IIRC)

The electric Gatling was successful but not adopted as it was considered to much of an ammo hog for the logistic systems of the time.
 
Leaving the main question "how to prevent machinegun from being invented without massive ASB-performed lobotomy" aside, several comments:
  • Early water-cooled Maxims on artillery-type carriages was neither much lighter nor much cheaper than contemporary Gatlings. I don't see developing Gatling in something as cumbersome as WWI-vintage heavy machine gun particularly problematic, so course of WWI pre-1917 would not change significantly. One area where Maxim is perennial winner, however, is reliability.
  • Submachineguns are natural replacement of Lewises and Madsens in a world without machinegun. In fact, one of first reliable self-reloading pistols (Mauser M96) is, for all intents and purposes, ultralite SMG working in single-shot mode (flaw caused by not understanding of advantages of auto fire for Close Quarter Combat and fixed in numerous M96 clones in 1920-1930s).
  • All talk of cavalry revival in MG-less world is pointless. Cavalry was effectively reduced to auxiliary status by mid-19th century, if not earlier. Infantry formation with bolt-action magazine rifles can repeal any cavalry charge.
I have a question, though. Do any of you know of any online resources or books devoted to black-powdered machineguns? I know that both British and French produced black-powder versions of Maxim design to use existing stock of old cartridges. But how operational they were? Wouldn't it be that Galtings in the original ISOT are heavy overkill and Leaton could produce Maxims for the same cartridge they used for Werder?
 
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