MacArthur: anything good to say about him?

People here and elsewhere bitch and moan about MacArthur allowing his B-17s in the Philippines to be destroyed on the ground by the Japanese.

They fail to get two things

1) IIRC, the "B-17 force" was something like less than 20 bombers. Not enough to have made a difference anywhere.

2) B-17s despite lots of pre war hype had a horrendous record against naval targets in the war.
 
Yeah, it's easy to criticize someone with the benefit of hindsight. The man had an ego the size of Mount Everest, but he was what he was. All the hate for him is uncalled for.

Frankly, nuclear weapons were just bigger bombs, when you get down to it. His stance was hardly unusual. How is dropping a nuclear bomb on Beijing any different than killing hundreds of thousands by fire-bombing Tokyo? Yes, radiation, perhaps, but was radiation and its effects really understood well at the time? I don't think so much.

The very fact that he was wantonly considering strategic bombing of Red China and forcibly bringing them into the conflict was a criminally dumb move at best. At least one could argue we were in a declared state of war with Japan during '41-'45. The rationale for strategic bombing of Chinese urban centers is significantly more dubious in my view. He was definitely overstepping his bounds there.
 
People here and elsewhere bitch and moan about MacArthur allowing his B-17s in the Philippines to be destroyed on the ground by the Japanese.

They fail to get two things

1) IIRC, the "B-17 force" was something like less than 20 bombers. Not enough to have made a difference anywhere.

2) B-17s despite lots of pre war hype had a horrendous record against naval targets in the war.

And you fail to understand what his inaction did. Had his planes been caught on the ground in a Pearl Harbor type surprise attack, that would have been regretable, but very understandable. His planes getting caught on the ground NINE HOURS later is inexcusable.
 
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And, his ideas about racial equality (especially regarding Asians) were decades ahead of their time.


If racism is good enough reason to dislike Wilson, maybe the opposite is good enough reason to like MacArthur.



(Edit: Some will say, does that compensate for wanting to bust into China with nuclear weapons, etc? WW3 versus Civil Rights proponent, well, good thing Truman took care of part(s) of that.)
 
1) IIRC, the "B-17 force" was something like less than 20 bombers. Not enough to have made a difference anywhere.

The 19 Bombardment Group lost 12 completely destroyed & a similar number required repair. More important is over sixty pursuit planes were destroyed, over two hundred USAAF ground and air crew killed or wounded, part of the fuel was destroyed, the bomb storage area hit, and most important of all the repair shops were hit heavily. The repair facilities were one of the primary targets of the Japanese attack & the destruction of those targets made it difficult or impossible to repair a significant portion of the destroyed aircraft.

While the bomb & fuel storage & repair facilities were largely damaged by the Japanese bombers attacking from high altitude, the US aircraft lost significant numbers to low level strafing attack of the Japanese pursuit planes.

2) B-17s despite lots of pre war hype had a horrendous record against naval targets in the war.

... and they had a decent record bombing airfields, which was the target Bereton wanted so badly to strike at on the morning of 8 December. Beyond that the failure of heavy bombers vs naval targets is vs ships underway. Against anchored ships, cargo ships unloading a landing force for example, the B17 or any heavy bombers had a hit rate comparable to other stationary targets. The other 100+ single engine pursuit planes and twin engine aircraft rendered inoperable in the 8th December Japanese airstrikes would have been even more effective in medium altitude bombing and low level strafing attacks vs a landing force both off and on the beach.
 

Paul MacQ

Donor
I dislike MacArthur as a combat General, He was a able Administrator and the perfect choice as Head of Training command, and Just not anywhere near combat.

He did inspire people he would have been fine in charge of all the Army training that was getting a massive boost.
 
Polish Eagle said:
I suppose one can say in MacArthur's defense that he never got elected to the presidency.
Not for lack of trying.:rolleyes: He tried to run for President from Japan.:eek: Then couldn't understand why he lost.:eek::rolleyes: :)p)
Carl Schwamberger said:
While Chief of Staff in the 1930s
...he forced the Garand to be chambered in .30-'06, rather than allowing it to use a lighter, less potent .276 round, which would have made it a more effective rifle, & let stand the silly decision to insist its magazine use clip feed,:confused: & remain within the furniture.:confused: And allowed the cavalry to demand separate tank organizations for no apparent reason.:confused: (IDK if he sent Christie packing off to SU, but it wouldn't surprise me.:rolleyes:)
Dayton Kitchens said:
I'm not certain what the beefs are about MacArthur's goals or means in the Pacific either.
Seriously? He screwed up the defense of the P.I., despite being there more than a decade: no revetments, no gun positions, no field fortifications even planned, let alone built. No adequate ammo supplies. No plan for moving food out of Manila when Japan attacked (which was, allegedly, widely expected), instead of leaving it to be burned.:rolleyes: No provision of adequate medicine for his men. No adequate ammo supplies. No adequate spares for his fighters.

Sitting for eight and a half hours reading his Bible after getting word Japan had attacked Pearl Harbor.:eek::eek::mad::mad::mad: After getting express orders from DC to commence operations.:eek::mad::mad: Then screwing up by not allowing Brereton to attack Taiwan immediately.:rolleyes::mad:

Obsession with the P.I. drew Sub Force boats away from the firing line to supply a trickle of material to the "guerrillas". Then it lengthened the war at least 6mo while the U.S. reconquered it, plus at least another month each at Iwo Jima & Okinawa thanks to the troops bound for P.I. who didn't make it.

His separate command in Oz also meant the Sub Force was denied access tot he most productive patrol area, the Luzon/Formosa Strait, for risk of fratricide.:eek::mad: This probably lengthened the war another 6mo, maybe more.:mad:

Tell me again how great his loss rates were. Tell me how the guys who got killed because the war was over a year longer think he was a genius. Tell me how the guys who got killed for nothing at Okinawa & Iwo Jima think so. Tell me how the sailors killed by kamikaze off Luzon think so. Tell me about the crews of O'Kane's Tang, & Scorpion, Herring, Golet, Robalo, Shark, Escolar, Albacore, Scamp, Swordfish, Growler, Barbel, Kete, Snook, Lagarto, Bonefish, Bullhead, & Sam Dealey's Harder--& Trigger. And Seawolf, sunk by friendly fire, for no damn reason at all.:eek::mad::mad: Everything considered, I'd bet Wahoo doesn't get sunk, either, cause Mush probably is someplace other than La Perouse Strait 16 Nov 43...:rolleyes:

Tell me how the hundreds of thousands of Japanese who died in P.I. & Okinawa & Iwo Jima & firebombings & atomic bombings think so.

Tell me he shouldn't have gone on trial for war crimes for authorizing strafing of men in the water at the Bismarck Sea.:eek::mad:

Then tell me how "great" this bastard was.:mad:
Garrison said:
And honestly whenever I think about Inchon my first question is; so who really came up with it?
Excellent question. Also, give credit to the Coast Guard crewmen who pulled off this loony stunt.
YLi said:
managed to rise to a high rank despite possessing no military skills whatsoever
LOOL. :D:D:D Well said.
 
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I'd say Iwo Jima and Okinawa were necessary battles, at least. Remember, the US didn't know whether the atomic bombs would get the Japanese to surrender or how many would be needed. Until then, they had to operate on the assumption that Japan would keep fighting, hence the operations at Iwo and Okinawa.

Philippines is more debatable, I grant that, but I think Luzon at least was worth it, though other Japanese-occupied islands could have been left to wither on the vine.

And the "hundreds of thousands of Japanese who died in P.I. & Okinawa & Iwo Jima & firebombings & atomic bombings?" What about them? Those in the P.I. were mostly military and the rest? Sucked to be them of course, but Japan did start the damn war in the first place.
 
...he forced the Garand to be chambered in .30-'06, rather than allowing it to use a lighter, less potent .276 round, which would have made it a more effective rifle, & let stand the silly decision to insist its magazine use clip feed,:confused: & remain within the furniture.:confused: And allowed the cavalry to demand separate tank organizations for no apparent reason.:confused: (IDK if he sent Christie packing off to SU, but it wouldn't surprise me.:rolleyes:)

I'm skeptical mac as CoS had very much influence over those decisions. The Ordnance Dept, like the Quartermaster was effectively independant what with the US Armys organization of pre 1940 & the politicians interest in the affairs of both departments. Marshal, enabled by Roosvelts support conducted a defacto coup that removed the dept cheifs & disolved the department system of the US Army and gave the CoS effective control less hampered by Congress.

Tell me again how great his loss rates were.

Folks who claim lower losses for the South Pacific offensives tend to pass lightly over the severe losses from tropical disease, particualry Malaria. The heavy losses to these diseases by the 1st Marine Div, and then by Patchs 14th Corps during the Guadalcanal campaign was a giant red warning flag. Unfortunatly Macs insistance on launching sucesive operations in 1943 at a rapid pace left the US 6th & 8th Armies unable to keep up with adaquate sanitation & other preventive actions. IIRC there were some 90,000 US soldiers permanetly lost to the 6th & 8th armies from disease during the PI campaign alone. Echelberger bitterly addressed this post war, Krueger refers to it in his message & reports to Mac during the campaign.

Krueger evidently had some weight with Mac as he got agreement for some delays, tho I've not dug into how much difference these made.
 
John Farson said:
I'd say Iwo Jima and Okinawa were necessary battles
Not saying unnecessary. They were way more costly than they needed to be, than they otherwise would have been, because MacArthur insisted on conquest of the P.I. It bought Japan time, & at least some of the forces in those islands had been originally bound for P.I., until they were intercepted by Sub Force.
John Farson said:
I think Luzon at least was worth it
IMO the better option would be mask it off & suppress with airpower from Saipan or someplace.
John Farson said:
Those in the P.I. were mostly military and the rest? Sucked to be them of course, but Japan did start the damn war in the first place.
That doesn't make them getting killed a good thing, when it could've been avoided.:rolleyes: Nor all the civilians. Nor the aircrews lost in doing it.

War isn't a one-sided affair, tho it's usually cast as such.

Carl Schwamberger said:
I'm skeptical mac as CoS had very much influence over those decisions.
Fair enough. IDK exactly how the decision was made, but for the Garand, at least, MacArthur is credited with the sign-off rejecting the .276 in favor of the .30-'06. (That it may've had to do with the .276 requiring a waxed round:eek: IDK.)
Carl Schwamberger said:
Folks who claim lower losses for the South Pacific offensives tend to pass lightly over the severe losses from tropical disease, particualry Malaria. The heavy losses to these diseases by the 1st Marine Div, and then by Patchs 14th Corps during the Guadalcanal campaign was a giant red warning flag.
An excellent point. AIUI, there was also trouble with troop education, not understanding the absolute need to take the atabrine tablets. Plus, IIRC, shortages of the drug, as well as the (cloroquine?) substitute/replacement.
 
An excellent point. AIUI, there was also trouble with troop education, not understanding the absolute need to take the atabrine tablets. Plus, IIRC, shortages of the drug, as well as the (cloroquine?) substitute/replacement.

It is a mistake to assume training is complete when leaving the recuit depot, or when the regiment finishes its mobilization work up. Training is a continual process and even combat veteran formations require training time to keep up with all sorts of problems. i suspect Kruegers correspondence includes the same point in regards to 6th Army & the South Pacific campaigns.
 
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