M1A2 Abrams vs. Tiger II

67th Tigers

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But lets look at the numbers. The front Chobham armor of the Abrams is the equivalent of 1320-1620 millimeters of rolled steel armor. The Tiger II has just 180mm on the front turret, the heaviest armor on the tank.

Only against HEAT rounds.

In fact the Glacis is only 560mm RHA equiv, much weaker than the turret (880mm), a reflection of the fact it was designed to fight hull down. This assumes a round is on the normal. If the round is coming 1600 mils to the normal then there's barely 300mm RHA equiv in the way....
 
Really? Parts of the M1A2 have 60mm RHA. It's interesting to note that when the Iraqi tank force got shots onto the lateral aspect of M1A2's their 100mm sabots penetrated and KO'd the Abrams, meanwhile the 125mm w/ sabot was only getting partial penetrations against the glacis. After engagements US tankers were finding Iraqi long rods embedded in their glacis "like arrows". Given the low quality of Iraqi ammunition, it seems likely that if they'd have had good Russian ammunition, the 125mm would likely have gotten kills in the forward aspect.

The fact is, the Abrams "invulnerability" has been immensely overstated.

Exactly - it's the same with any other modern tank. I've spent a year doing maintenance on Leopard 2's, and it's ONLY the frontal armor that's 80+cm perforated armor with ceramics, sides and rear are ~60mm RHA on both turret and chassis. Given their common heritage, I'd imagine it's roughly the same for the Abrams.

Even at high deflection, the 88mm can penetrate that much armor at 2+km - but they'd hardly spot the Abrams first if it's electronics were functioning ...
 
The front Chobham armor of the Abrams is the equivalent of 1320-1620 millimeters of rolled steel armor.
That's the RHAe for the turret only, and it's against chemical energy rounds, not the kinetic energy rounds which the Tiger II would be firing. Against a kinetic energy round, a modern M1A2 would have an RHAe of roughly 950mm at its strongest point-the turret-and an RHAe of roughly 550mm at the glacis.

A Sherman tank firing an APCBC shell from a kilometre away has effective penetration of 90mm. A Tiger II firing a HVAP shell, instead of a standard AP shell has effective penetration of around 250mm from 100 metres away, and around 200mm from 1 kilometre away.
 
1) All shielding is relative. No shielding is absolute, and the
shielding of a mobile structure such as a tank is constrained
by practical considerations.

2) EMPs aren't neccessarily the product of atomic blasts-
They can be and have been generated without them
They can even be generated naturally.


3) The best EMP shielding is actualy not having any eletronics.

4) And mostly important: I postulated a SUFFICIENTLY
strong EMP. So, no matter what the
shielding, the electronics of the M1A2 are fried.

They'll have some sort of contingency in place in case the shielding is overwhelmed. Remember, nuclear battlefield, even without the solid state electronics they (and most likely the T-72 and T-80) would still operate. Not as well, and at reduced capacity, but they will still work.
 
OK just to make this more interesting, how many King Tigers does it take to kill a M1? For example, IIRC they used to reckon 4 Shermans per Tiger.

Assume, European terrain (e.g. average visibility 500m, lots of things to hide behind) , top WW2 German 'Tank Aces' are crewing the King Tigers.

I'm guessing the King Tiger's best approach is to get a good part of the force covering the area in smoke and then spread out and try to sneak from cover to cover around the M1's flanks (he can't be firing in opposite directions at the same time). Once they have him surrounded, they all charge in at once.

Meanwhile the M1 commander, does what, head for the top of the nearest hill so he can see them coming? (I know in reality what he does is call in an air-strike, but they are busy dealing with the ME109's:p)

I reckon, off the top of my head, that the German's will lose a dozen King Tigers before they get lucky. Any better calculations?
 
I reckon, off the top of my head, that the German's will lose a dozen King Tigers before they get lucky. Any better calculations?
I predict 42 King Tigers destroyed before the Abrams runs out of rounds, and then it releases its smoke grenades and escapes.
 
(I know in reality what he does is call in an air-strike, but they are busy dealing with the ME109's:p)
You owe me an ice tea and a keyboard!

Seriously, this raises a good point. Combined arms. Even in WWII armor seldom operated alone. Artillery, close air support, engineers and infantry all affect how armor is used. I know this is a hypothetical situation, but support and logistics will have a huge effect on the outcome on a real battlefield.
 
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Assume, European terrain (e.g. average visibility 500m, lots of things to hide behind) , top WW2 German 'Tank Aces' are crewing the King Tigers.

How many tank aces will Germany lose to destroy an M1? Why don't they send infantry instead?

Man, they are going to be pissed off when a surviving King Tiger limps home to tell that 210 of their best crews have been wasted on 1 M1:p

(BTW I think that the name 'King Tiger' is unappropriate. Looked up on some German-Indo dictionary and Koenigstiger meant Bengal Tiger...)
 
covering the area in smoke

Won't work, the M1 relies on more than just the Mark 1 Eyeball to spot an enemy, its optical scopes would easily defeat a smokescreen. (I'm pretty sure an IR scope can, at any rate, I think M1A2 have radar with IFF detectors)
 

CalBear

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Won't work, the M1 relies on more than just the Mark 1 Eyeball to spot an enemy, its optical scopes would easily defeat a smokescreen. (I'm pretty sure an IR scope can, at any rate, I think M1A2 have radar with IFF detectors)

A MODERN smokescreen is somewhat effective (modern screening sometimes includes contaminants desgned to degrade IR), but WW II version would be as effective as Saran wrap.
 
Hey how about maybe if TEN tigers go against one abrams ha? or or 50 teuton knights agains 50 18.st french dragoons? or or i once played this game where you can fly a spitfire against any number of f-16, yea lets do that! .. no wait...
 

CalBear

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I predict 42 King Tigers destroyed before the Abrams runs out of rounds, and then it releases its smoke grenades and escapes.

Probably 40, maybe 41 dead panzers. The one shot kill rate is only about 95%.

I would like to see the look on the German's faces when that M1A1 scooted away at 50 MPH (assuming the crew has messed with, but not completely disconnected, the govenor).
 
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