Luftwaffe without Messerschmitt

Unlike Sir Sidney Camm, who never managed to design anything that broke the sound barrier (not for lack of trying, but gov't support was lacking), Willy Messerschmitt did get a supersonic jet into limited service with his Helwan HA-300, with a British engine no less.

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I don't think any other German designer made anything supersonic that wasn't a ballistic rocket or spacecraft. So, no Messerschmitt, does that mean no German-designed supersonic aircraft until German collaboration on the Panavia Tornado and Eurofighter?
 
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Pangur

Donor
Unlike Sir Sidney Camm, who never managed to design anything that broke the sound barrier, Willy Messerschmitt did get a supersonic jet into limited service with his Helwan HA-300, with a British engine no less. I don't think any other German designer made anything supersonic that wasn't a ballistic rocket or spacecraft.

So, no Messerschmitt, no German-designed supersonic aircraft?
Thats a bit of a stretch TBH.
 
With no Messershmitt, does the RLM have enough time before the war to essentially get to the He-100D version, or was that line of development just going to run it's course? Still, there would have been less demand for the DB-601 engines, so maybe more pressure to advance the He-100 at an earlier pace? The same idea is likely true for the He-112 as well.

That would depend on what the RLM/LW wants. The Bf 109 was urgently being produced in late 1930s by several licence producers since Germany was in no possesion of modern monoplane fighters, like the French and British were getting, and Germany didn't wanted to lag even more. With such investment in the industry, that is applicable to any military aircraft, it makes sense to churn out the machines in good numbers in order to make use of economies of scale.
In other words, having several production lines for the He 112 in 1937-38, and suddenly trying to re-tool for another fighter in 1939 would've meant far less of the fighters produced and in service, with increased cost of both 112 and 100.

I Think actually the Economies of scale could be a superb drivervfir the He-100. It was designed for this in mind. With no need to beat me109, a more mass producible he-100 is a sure Way to sell more units + the spitfire was rumored already at the time of the He-112 selection.
 
I Think actually the Economies of scale could be a superb drivervfir the He-100. It was designed for this in mind. With no need to beat me109, a more mass producible he-100 is a sure Way to sell more units + the spitfire was rumored already at the time of the He-112 selection.

As above - when the new, monoplane fighter is slated to enter the LW service, plus what can be sold abroad?
If the answer is 1937 (= as with OTL Bf 109), the He 100 is too late for that.
If the answer is 1939 - what are the Germany/LW and it's Allies supposed to use as a fighter between 1937 and 1939?
 

Driftless

Donor
As above - when the new, monoplane fighter is slated to enter the LW service, plus what can be sold abroad?
If the answer is 1937 (= as with OTL Bf 109), the He 100 is too late for that.
If the answer is 1939 - what are the Germany/LW and it's Allies supposed to use as a fighter between 1937 and 1939?

Why wouldn't they create the He-112 first - the Hurricane equivalent; and then the He-100? The latter would take more time for refinement, but have a higher potential than the He-112. Have the FW-190 coming down the pipeline. The He-112 becomes the international sales piece in this layout.

I believe the RLM original preference was for a limited number of basic designs, but they adapted (for good or bad) to cranking out multiple designs, prototypes, and production planes for a variety of purposes.
 
Why wouldn't they create the He-112 first - the Hurricane equivalent; and then the He-100? The latter would take more time for refinement, but have a higher potential than the He-112. Have the FW-190 coming down the pipeline. The He-112 becomes the international sales piece in this layout.

I agree that He 100 (or it's ATL equivalent) would've been a good idea, especially since the He 112 will not be as performer as it was the He 100. Quirks are timing and production. Even with single 1-engined type in production 1937-mid 1941, Jagdwaffe was receiving far less fighters than RAF received Hurricanes + Spitfires (this obviously does not include what was bought in the USA, plus what French and later Soviets were producing). Thus re-tooling production lines for a new fighter in 1938/39 and re-training the workforce is bound to leave them with even less fighters in 1939-40, that combined with lower performance of the He 112 vs OTL Bf 109 will play havoc with LW plans, succeses and losses.
The He 112 will not become the international sales piece with advent of Fw 190 and He 100 - nobody will want the 3rd best German fighter. Granted, once all of the production lines are running smooth, the numbers produced will start improving, especially since the He 100 was allegedly far better suited to the mass production than the He 112, using much less panels and rivets.

What might be interesting is the He 112 with thin wings, not unlike what Tempest was to the Typhoon. Much less hussle on the production lines than wholesale change of type produced.

I believe the RLM original preference was for a limited number of basic designs, but they adapted (for good or bad) to cranking out multiple designs, prototypes, and production planes for a variety of purposes.

Choosing a limited number of basic designs was a sound policy, provided one's technology is up to the task, and there is no bias (political or similar) when making the choices.
Taking on 3-4 big enemies in almost same time was not a sound policy, but again that was not the guilt of RLM.
 
I believe the reason Heinkel came out with several re-designs was that they were losing a competition against the Bf-109, having left the other alternatives in the garbage. With the He-112 as the acknowledged winner, development of the He-100 is questionable.
 
Any fighter without the 109's vicious takeoff and landing chariterisrics will be welcomed by the Luftwaffe and save thousands of pilots.
 
I believe the reason Heinkel came out with several re-designs was that they were losing a competition against the Bf-109, having left the other alternatives in the garbage. With the He-112 as the acknowledged winner, development of the He-100 is questionable.
IIRC, a Call was made for a replacement/back-up fighter shortly after me109 is selected. ITTL you could easily imagine heinkel 112 selected in 1935, the Call made in 1936 and heinkel having a continuous development run to win this call. IOTL he did it all by himself...
Actually, I dont Think heinkel needed incentives to attempt improved designs. Whether or not RLM knew they needed them.
 
That would probably have been an even match for the Meteor and slightly inferior to the Vampire and Shooting Star?

If Heinkel are already making the He280, what disaster gets picked as the Volksjager? Heinkels He162 was the only decent aircraft in the whole sorry bunch of death traps.

Probably the Blohm und Voss P.211A, the low mounted swept wing one that looks like a sawn of F.86. It was judged the best of the competion but Heinkel won through lobbying. It's the only one that looks like a decent fighter.

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