Luftwaffe with surviving Weimar Republic

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Deleted member 1487

Assuming the Nazis don't get in power, say Hitler dies of a heart attack or something in 1932, splitting the far right so that the SPD or someone else puts together and government, how would the Luftwaffe develop without Nazi rearmament? Rearmament planning was already laid down in 1932 in a meeting with the Reichswehr and government, plus of course activity before then, but no set plans for the forming of an independent Luftwaffe or explicit publicly announced violations of the ToV were planned AFAIK.

For one thing Erhard Milch wouldn't be involved, as he was a political appointment thanks to the bribes he had been paying Goering and Hitler for years by 1933. Wever's transfer to the LW was something done due to the rapid expansion of aerial rearmament, so he might never leave the army. Goering of course would not be involved at all. In fact the clandestine air force had an experienced airman directing it IOTL, but he was excluded from directing the LW IOTL because of his half Jewish heritage, Helmuth Wilberg. He was easily the most experienced airman in Germany at the time, having been a bomber wing commander in WW1, and having been retained in the Reichswehr as an air expert directing clandestine efforts and was part of the Reichwehr team in Russia in the 1920s.
http://ww2gravestone.com/people/wilberg-helmuth/
http://www.reocities.com/~orion47/WEHRMACHT/LUFTWAFFE/General/WILBERG_HELMUTH.html
http://translate.google.com/transla...ikipedia.org/wiki/Helmuth_Wilberg&prev=search

Would the Luftwaffe remain clandestine throughout the 1930s, develop more along the lines of the rest of the west, remain small due to the economy, or grow into something similar, though less anti-semitic/pro-Nazi, to what it became IOTL?
 

Driftless

Donor
One peice of the puzzle would be the relationship with the various manufacturers.

Hugo Junkers - not beloved by the military, but certainly the Nazi's really ran roughshod over him
Junkers was a socialist and a pacifist. For these reasons, he had several occasions to cross swords with German leadership. In 1917 the government forced him into partnership with Anthony Fokker to ensure wartime production targets would be met.

During the 1920s in Germany and among Junkers' employees a wide spectrum of political views was present. About every aspect of the business, and of its environment, there were differing opinions. For members of all the many groups represented in Junkers, aviation offered hope for national renewal. Their varied views led to lively internal corporate politics. In 1926, unable to make government loan repayments after a failed venture to build planes for the USSR, he lost control of most of his businesses.

Upon the 1933 Machtergreifung the new Nazi government interfered, and the new Reichskommissar of Aviation Hermann Göring (who allegedly had unsuccessfully applied as a test pilot in the early 1920s) aimed to make Junkers a tool of German re-armament. The Nazi authorities immediately demanded ownership of Hugo Junkers' patents and the majority of shares of his remaining companies. Under threat of imprisonment he eventually acquiesced, to little avail; a year later he was under house arrest and was finally forced to leave Dessau. He died on 3 February 1935 in Gauting near Munich.


Ernst Heinkel had a "complex" relationship with the Nazi's, so how would he have fared with an extended Weimar?
After Adolf Hitler came to power, designs by Heinkel's firm formed a vital part of the Luftwaffe's growing strength in the years leading up to the Second World War. This included the Heinkel He 59, the Heinkel He 115 and the Heinkel He 111. He was designated a Wehrwirtschaftführer (~ defence industry leader) by the German government for his commitment to rearmament.
Heinkel had been a critic of Hitler's regime concerning being forced to fire Jewish designers and staff in 1933, however, he was a member of the Nazi party,[4] awarded the German National Prize for Art and Science in 1938, one of the rarest honors of the German government,[5] and he used forced Jewish labor starting in 1941, in which his company was considered a "model for slave labor."[6]

In 1942 the government "nationalised" the Heinkel works. In practice, this meant that Heinkel was detained until he sold his controlling interest in his factories to Hermann Göring. Heinkel moved to Vienna and started a new design bureau and corporate offices in Vienna's Schwechat suburb, establishing manufacturing facilities in Zwölfaxing and Floridsdorf as the Heinkel-Sud complex for his firm, the original Rostock-"Marienhe" plant (today's Rostock-Schmarl neighborhood) becoming the Heinkel-Nord facility. It was at the Heinkel-Sud offices that Dr. Heinkel worked on the Heinkel He 274 four-engined high-altitude heavy bomber design - as one of the trio of proposals for aircraft designs to succeed his firm's failed Heinkel He 177A heavy bomber — until the war ended.
 

Deleted member 1487

Certainly the aero-industry would be retarded compared to OTL without the massive contracts and government funded production facilities built in a few years from 1934-39.
 

Driftless

Donor
The financial support from the government in a shaky economy would be important.

Didn't Junkers also partner with the Russians on developing some aircraft as well? He had some cutting edge designs at the end of WW1 & into the 20's. That should have brought more investment (in civil aviation anyway) to his door.
 

Deleted member 1487

The financial support from the government in a shaky economy would be important.

Didn't Junkers also partner with the Russians on developing some aircraft as well? He had some cutting edge designs at the end of WW1 & into the 20's. That should have brought more investment (in civil aviation anyway) to his door.
The Soviets pretty much were out of foreign exchange IOTL due to the Great Depression and the Reichwehr-Soviet cooperation was ending pretty much regardless of the Nazis, but that sped things up a bit. I doubt Junkers would do much with them, but ITTL without the Nazis coming to power German Soviet trade wouldn't collapse and might go to more of a barter agreement:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany%E2%80%93Soviet_Union_relations_before_1941#Soviet_Russia_and_Weimar_Germany

Of course without anti-Soviet measures the Nazis took the British might not be open to helping the German government like they did with Hitler from 1935 on, but the British were still pretty friendly with the Germans in the 1920s-30 anyway.

Its interesting to think of how the other conflicts of the 1930s would play out ITTL, like the Spanish civil war, relations with Italy, and the Sino-Japanese conflict. German-Chinese trade was pretty important to Germany and if no-Nazis means the Japanese are less bold then that trade continues and China becomes/remains a massive market for Germany with military export potential.

Udet would still be around.

Question is, at how high a position?
He would likely have no position without Goering bringing him in. He was not a military man anymore, just a stunt flyer.
 

Driftless

Donor
Udet would still be around.

Question is, at how high a position?

Udet's wartime service with Goering certainly helped, but Udet seemed to have an endless set of connected friends, so he may have risen anyway. The "rising tide lifts all boats" kind of thing?

Likewise, Erhard Milch rose faster because of his Nazi party connections, but he was already in the airline business before, and had undoubted skills, coupled with ruthlessness. He'd probably have risen anywhere
 
He would likely have no position without Goering bringing him in. He was not a military man anymore, just a stunt flyer.

A stunt flyer with 62 kills from the last war, the 4th highest(2nd after Richthofen for German aces) and a movie star.

He knew how to Party, and make friends. If there is going to be a Luftwaffe, he would be in it, eventually
 

Deleted member 1487

Udet's wartime service with Goering certainly helped, but Udet seemed to have an endless set of connected friends, so he may have risen anyway. The "rising tide lifts all boats" kind of thing?

Likewise, Erhard Milch rose faster because of his Nazi party connections, but he was already in the airline business before, and had undoubted skills, coupled with ruthlessness. He'd probably have risen anywhere

That's the thing the Reichwehr given its more traditional Prussian officer bias was not cool with civilians coming in and organizing things; the Nazis pretty much forced it on them and bought them off with higher funding. ITTL left to their own devices they would not bring in civilians like Milch or Udet despite their military background. Now its not as if Milch couldn't have headed up a civilian RLM without ties to the military if the government set up one, which they probably would have to at some point, but it would not be a pseudo military position like it was IOTL. I fail to see how Udet could have risen to any military position without Goering; he might be a spokes person for LW funding or public outreach to create 'air mindedness', but he's not going to be in a command position.

A stunt flyer with 62 kills from the last war, the 4th highest(2nd after Richthofen for German aces) and a movie star.

He knew how to Party, and make friends. If there is going to be a Luftwaffe, he would be in it, eventually
The pre-Nazi Reichswehr was a lot more professional than the Goering led pre-Luftwaffe. I'm not saying he couldn't be tangentially linked, but he would never have risen to inspector status that he got pre-1936, let alone as head of the T-amt. He might even stay in the US stunt flying.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Udet
In April 1933 he received the appointment as Vice-Commodore of the flyer German Air Sports Association and on May 1 In 1933 Udet, of Hermann Goering persuaded the NSDAP in. At the instigation of Goering Udet joined on 1 June 1935 at the rank of colonel in the newly established Air Force one. On 1 September 1935 he was Chief of Hunting and fighter pilot.
As it was he only joined the Nazis at the behest of Goering and then got military positions via Goering. He was way out of the military loop by then and not even thought of as someone serious, as he was just a party animal and stuntman that the Reichswehr was not interested in.
 
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Driftless

Donor
A stunt flyer with 62 kills from the last war, the 4th highest(2nd after Richthofen for German aces) and a movie star.

He knew how to Party, and make friends. If there is going to be a Luftwaffe, he would be in it, eventually

Whenever the Weimar Luftwaffe surfaced for public consumption post-WW1, Udet would have made a good front man. His fighter pilot skills and bon vivant nature probably would have played well with both the British and Americans, especially if the (non-Nazi) Germans could have been viewed as a buffer against the spread of the Soviets.
 

Deleted member 1487

Whenever the Weimar Luftwaffe surfaced for public consumption post-WW1, Udet would have made a good front man. His fighter pilot skills and bon vivant nature probably would have played well with both the British and Americans, especially if the (non-Nazi) Germans could have been viewed as a buffer against the spread of the Soviets.
That's the best job for him, using him as a PR guy/recruitment tool.
 
Ernst Udet's flying and fighting skills were at the highest levels, and he was probably the most likable person, certainly the most likable nazi. He had no technical skills, and didn't make the best test pilot, but he loved to fly. His placement in a technical department was very misguided, and having him out of there is just a matter of not putting him there.
 
A "surviving" Weimar Republic would probably not be as aggressive as the Nazi Regime in violating the terms of the Versailles Treaty. It might well seek to secure French and British acceptance of a "reasonable" German disarmament in the context of an anti-Soviet coalition.

This might mean that Germany would focus its new "Luftwaffe" on defensive fighters and ground attackers and specifically not develop fast, relatively long range bombers such as the Do17, He111, and Ju88.

I agree with those who suggest that Udet might become the face of this non-Nazi Luftwaffe, but who's to say Milch or even Goring wouldn't also be involved. The Butterflies that eliminate the Nazis might well allow people who were once associated with the movement move into coalitions with a non-Nazi government.

I would also offer the possibility that a rearmed Weimar Germany might not create the most modern warplanes, since this could be interpreted by Britain and France as part of a technological arms race. In fact, it might import or license-build non-German types rather than try to build a world-class military aviation industry from scratch. Fokker comes to mind
 

Deleted member 1487

Ernst Udet's flying and fighting skills were at the highest levels,
For WW1, he never adapted to the developments of the interwar and WW2 period and how technology changed the tactics and flying requirements of the modern era...the same charge could be levied at Goering too.
 

Driftless

Donor
Udet was an early advocate for dive bombing, even if he had limited scope for other parts of doctrine. An effective tactical air force would have been more in the reach of a Weimar Luftwaffe than a sizeable strategic force (which they didn't get anyway).

Still, you'd need the political will to shape and build the Luftwaffe, in the face of international opposition. What's the purpose, how, when, and where will it be used? Who is the leadership? Where is the money coming from and if it's funded, who gets to build what?
 
Without Nazi militarism, Hugo Junkers would have continued building corrugated civilian airliners. During the 1930s Junkers corrugated singles were well-respected in the Canadian, considered far more durable and more reliable than their fabric-covered competitors.
The real question is whether Junkers could make the transition to smooth-skinned transports in time to compete with Douglas?????
 

Deleted member 1487

Udet was an early advocate for dive bombing, even if he had limited scope for other parts of doctrine. An effective tactical air force would have been more in the reach of a Weimar Luftwaffe than a sizeable strategic force (which they didn't get anyway).
Unless they can get funding for a specialist strategic wing, which I think they would eventually due to the German economy eventually improving by the 1940s, they will be like the Cold War Luftwaffe focusing on army support duties until they could innovate a complex strategic bomber and produce it in limited numbers.


Still, you'd need the political will to shape and build the Luftwaffe, in the face of international opposition. What's the purpose, how, when, and where will it be used? Who is the leadership? Where is the money coming from and if it's funded, who gets to build what?
Rearmament was already planned under Weimar and started before Hitler took office thanks to the withdrawal of the Allied inspectors and Lausanne agreement. The purpose would be defense of Germany and fighting France/Poland/Czechoslovakia if they oppose revanche. The leadership is still civilian, but I think Helmuth Wilberg will be Commander of it and like Hitler did over the world disarmament conference in 1934 he can claim French refusal to disarm to German levels means Germany can arm to French levels. Money probably comes from taxes as per OTL, but at sustainable levels while the civilians try and rebuild the economy. It doesn't happen as soon or as big as IOTL, but by the late 1930s they are out of the closet and rearming.
 
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