Luftwaffe uses French aircraft after June 1940?

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The Germans made a power egg out of the Amiot 351's 14Ms, and the British made a power egg out of a later Amiot model for the Merlin XX, and the Lancaster's whole nacelle. Bf-109s took the BMW radial, and P&W R-1830 radial. The He-100 wouldn't take anything but a DB601. Case by case. The Beaufighter, different versions, could take Hercules or Merlin, but couldn't tale Hercules 100 and later, power egg or not.
 

Deleted member 1487

The Germans made a power egg out of the Amiot 351's 14Ms, and the British made a power egg out of a later Amiot model for the Merlin XX, and the Lancaster's whole nacelle. Bf-109s took the BMW radial, and P&W R-1830 radial. The He-100 wouldn't take anything but a DB601. Case by case. The Beaufighter, different versions, could take Hercules or Merlin, but couldn't tale Hercules 100 and later, power egg or not.
https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/bf-109-x.2713/
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/bf-109x.10246/#post-124989
Not really sure the Bf109X really worked.

The issue with the Bf110 that was mentioned before:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=20078
The NEXT major issue was closely associated with this; the 110 was not actually a very manouverable aircraft UNTIL it was flying withing 20-30 mph of it's top speed. Only up at the TOP of its performance envelope was air moving over the tail surfaces quickly enough to make the aircraft fully responsive for the pilot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_110_operational_history
The Battle of Britain revealed the Bf 110's fatal weaknesses as a daylight fighter against single-engine aircraft. A relatively large aircraft, it lacked the agility of the Hurricane and Spitfire and was easily seen. The World War I-era Bristol Fighter had done well with a rear gunner firing a rifle-caliber machine gun, but by World War II, this was insufficient to deter the eight-gun fighters facing the Bf 110. Its size and weight meant that it had high wing loading, which limited its maneuverability. Furthermore, although it had a higher top speed than contemporary RAF Hurricanes, it had poor acceleration. However, it was unique at the time as a long-range bomber escort, and did not have the problems of restricted range that hampered the Bf 109E. Although outclassed, it was still formidable as a high escort for bombers using the tactic of diving upon an enemy, delivering a long-range burst from its powerful forward-facing armament, then breaking contact to run for it.[26]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_110#Later_production_variants
The initial deliveries of the Bf 110 encountered several delays with delivery of the DB 600 motors, which forced Bayerische Flugzeugwerke to install Junkers Jumo 210B engines, leaving the Bf 110 seriously underpowered and able to reach a top speed of only 431 km/h (268 mph). The armament of the A-0 units was also limited to four nose-mounted 7.92 mm (.312 in) MG 17 machine guns.

The production of the Bf 110 was put on a low priority in 1941 in expectation of its replacement by the Me 210. During this time, two versions of the Bf 110 were developed, the E and F models. The E was designed as a fighter bomber (Zerstörer Jabo), able to carry four 50 kg (110 lb) ETC-50 racks under the wing, along with the centerline bomb rack. The first E, the Bf 110 E-1 was originally powered by the DB 601B engine, but shifted to the DB 601P as they became available in quantity. A total of 856 Bf 110E models were built between August 1940 and January 1942.[10] The E models also had upgraded armour and some fuselage upgrades to support the added weight. Most pilots of the Bf 110E considered the aircraft slow and unresponsive, one former Bf 110 pilot commenting the E was "rigged and a total dog."
 
How long did that take and how many changes to the production line did that entail?

Curtiss head designer Donovan Berlin got USAAC permission in July 1937 to fit an Allison V-1710-19. The tenth P-36A produced had the original radial removed and converted to have the liquid cooled engine and in company records, known as Model 75P
xp40-18.jpg

Note rear mounted radiator. This wasn't ideal from a drag standpoint, and the radiators moved up to the chin after several relocations and exhaust stack changes..

The had little in common with the earlier Model 75I (aka XP-37) from February 1937 that had a Turbocharged Allison that had the cockpit relocated near the tail, that after conversion from a Model 75 prototype, flew in April 1937, and in Army tests in June.

So a few months, to go from this

curtiss_75_1.jpg


To this
xp-37640px.jpg



Going from Liquid cooled to air cooled is far easier, since you are removing plumbing.

And in all cases, Curtiss kept making a variety of Model 75s depending on customer desires, even a fixed gear type
 

Deleted member 1487

Yet the DB603 mod Fw190C didn't work after two years of work and took until 1944 to really feed into a production FW190D.
The P-40 didn't enter production until 1939, so with a 1935 start date with the Model 75P it took nearly 4 years to get to a production inline liquid cooled version.
 
Yet the DB603 mod Fw190C didn't work after two years of work and took until 1944 to really feed into a production FW190D.
The P-40 didn't enter production until 1939, so with a 1935 start date with the Model 75P it took nearly 4 years to get to a production inline liquid cooled version.

Well, a War wasn't on, and the USAAC was stingy with funding, and NACA Wind Tunnel testing tough to schedule. French were very happy with their Model 75 contract.

And BC and 8thAF had something to do with Luftwaffe delays.

On-Time, Cheap, Works.
Choose Two.
Though sometimes you only get one.
 
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The loss from German industry of engineers & technicians to military service handicapped development and production. Was the aircraft industry & military aircraft development immune to this, or was it interfering significantly?
 

Deleted member 1487

The loss from German industry of engineers & technicians to military service handicapped development and production. Was the aircraft industry & military aircraft development immune to this, or was it interfering significantly?
Good question, I'm not sure if there is an answer in english language histories though; I've read very extensively on Luftwaffe technical developments and haven't found a specific answer to it. There was a proposal to have Kurt Tank run Rechlin and be the chief test pilot to help figure out technical issues, but the RLM wanted him to stay developing aircraft. I think toward the very end there was a real fear of being thrown into the front lines so that is where the Napkinwaffe late war suggestions came from, but I don't know if there was really nearly as much of that for practical weapons development as there was for other sectors, like electronics (radar supposedly was handicapped by the drafting of engineers that was only reversed in 1943).
 
One area that France can help the Germans out with are transports, these were always in high demand if not considered sexy.
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LW was always short of transports, especially after losing hordes of Ju52 during the invasions of Holland and Crete. If French factories tooled up to build Ju252 and later transports, it would relieve pressure on German factories.
As for spare parts .... if French-built MPA were based at French coastal airports .....
By the end of the war, French aircraft factories would emerge with plenty of tooling and plenty of experience for medium to long range transports.
 

Deleted member 1487

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LW was always short of transports, especially after losing hordes of Ju52 during the invasions of Holland and Crete. If French factories tooled up to build Ju252 and later transports, it would relieve pressure on German factories.
As for spare parts .... if French-built MPA were based at French coastal airports .....
By the end of the war, French aircraft factories would emerge with plenty of tooling and plenty of experience for medium to long range transports.
They did, French aircraft were used as transports and the French were contracted to make German transports IOTL.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avions_Amiot
During the war, Amiot co-operated with the German occupiers to protect his interests, and those of the exiled Wertheimers, then working in the United States. Amiot became a subcontractor for the Junkers company, building 370 aircraft. Licence production of the Junkers Ju 52 trimotor continued after the war under the designation Amiot AAC.1 Toucan. Over 400 units were built for the French military and for airline use in France and its overseas territories.[2]
 
Yeah, why didn't they produce anything with it if it were so much better than the base model?

They produced test results with it, as intended. Aircraft performance might well have been better at the BMW's rated altitude, but fighter performance was sadly lacking owing to the lack of weapons, and range was probably worse. I did mention that it was an unarmed testbed.
 

Deleted member 1487

They produced test results with it, as intended. Aircraft performance might well have been better at the BMW's rated altitude, but fighter performance was sadly lacking owing to the lack of weapons, and range was probably worse. I did mention that it was an unarmed testbed.
It better have gotten better results with the higher powered BMW 801! The issue that was raised was re-engining with the French G-R 14N engine, which is much less power, no more than the DB-601 engine, but with more drag from an increased nose area, which raises the question...if the increased performance of the BMW 801 wasn't deemed worth putting the ME109X into production with all the resulting production line and time disruptions, why would an engine that gives worse performance be worth it, especially when there is a limited supply of French engines and they can be used more effectively in other roles with less modification to the original airframes? It would be a more efficient use of resources to just use and aircraft designed around said engine than modifying the ME109 and spending those engineering resources and time.
 
02.jpg


A DG605A and many parts of a Bf-109G were mated to this Spitfire V, so I suppose they had some spare time for research. Time spent in the research department doesn't affect the production line, and it's always nice to know something. The Bf-109X aided BMW engine research. Marcel Bloch went to a concentration camp rather than serve Germans. The Breguet 700 prototype was destroyed at the factory rather than have it serve the Germans. There's nothing like the confidence gained by a Luftwaffe pilot knowing that the Frenchmen who built his aircraft hate his guts and wish him dead, and would do something about it but for all those German lackeys watching him, who should be off to Russia fighting for glory. More drag from increased nose area is often off-set by extra drag from coolant radiators.
Finally, there's no better confidence builder than operating a losing enemy's machine, knowing full well how readily they were destroyed when operated by the enemy.
 

Archibald

Banned
Briging back this thread because (coincidentally) France Fights On just has an inventory of French aircrafts used by the Axis

http://1940lafrancecontinue.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2524&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Matériel réutilisé et construit pour l'Axe

Si je prend le récap OTL des appareils de l'armée de l'air réutilisés sous les couleurs de l'axe, pour les plus significatifs évidemment, on a :

- MB 151/152 - environ 127 unités + 173 capturés en 1942 lors de l'invasion de la zone libre (pas forcément bon de vol),

-MB 155 - 25 unités capturées en 1942, 42 exemplaires commandés directement et livrés a CHateauroux pour remise à niveau des instructeurs, puis affectation à la JG 103

- MB 161 - 5 exemplaires pour la lufthansa (pour mémoire),

- MB 174 - 11 appareils référencés, certainement plus saisis à Mérignac en 1940,

- MB 200 - 37 exemplaires, dont certains sont issus de l'armée de l'air tchecoslovaque (AERO),

-MB 210 - 6 exemplaires pour la fallschirjager-schule,

-MB 220 - 11 exemplaires pour la lufthansa,

-BR 691/693 - une demi-douzaine d'exemplaires capturé à Velizy en 1940 et remis en service. il convient d'ajouter 3 BR 695 capturés en 1942,

-Caudron Goeland 445 - 84 exemplaires capturés et 500 construits sous licence entre 41 et 43 ! Un vrai succès commercial.

CAudron Simoun - 12 exemplaires réutilisés, le reste part en Suède ou en Hongrie,

-Dewoitine 520 - 250 exemplaires saisis en 1942, 178 exemplaires construits sous licence !!

- LAtéocoére 298 - 54 exemplaires saisis en 1942 mais peut utilisés, essentiellement en Baltique ...

- Leo 451 - 4 exemplaires capturés en 1942, mais 82 construits sous licence pour remplacer des junker 52 détruits, ainsi que 5 leo 455,

- MS 230 - + de 293 exemplaires passant en liaison ou entrainement entre 1940 et 1943, dont des construits sous licence,

- MS 406 - quelques exemplaires pour la JG103, le reste part en Finlande ou Croatie,

- Potez 63-11 : 134 exemplaires au moins saisis en 1942, dont 15 envoyés en Italie,

-NC470 - 14 exemplaires de bi-moteurs d'entrainement,

the Caudron Goéland was a small transport aircraft.
 

Deleted member 1487

Briging back this thread because (coincidentally) France Fights On just has an inventory of French aircrafts used by the Axis

http://1940lafrancecontinue.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2524&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0



the Caudron Goéland was a small transport aircraft.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breguet_693
The Armée de l'air received only 211 examples: 75 Bre.691s, 128 Bre.693s and eight Bre.695s but the Germans captured a few dozen complete or near-complete aircraft at the factories.
How many were repaired/completed and put back into action?
 

Deleted member 1487

Actually, could the MB 152 be converted into a fighter-bomber? It would be like a weaker Fw190.
 
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