Luftwaffe uses French aircraft after June 1940?

  • Thread starter Deleted member 1487
  • Start date
It seems to me that if we're to make a ground attack aircraft out of the Potez or Breguet, the latter is more suitable, especially if based on the latest Br.700 with GR14N engines. If adding much increased armour for pilots, engines, systems etc. decreases the speed by say 50 or even 75kph, the Breguet could still do almost 500kph, a decent performance much superior to the Hs-129, AND it has a rear gunner. With more power should also be able to carry more weapons. Adding same armour and coresponding speed loss for the GR14M equipped Potez-63 or Breguet-693 reduced the speed to under 400kph, worse than the Henschel.

Btw i'm reading with increasing dismay how many relatively good aircraft useful for the smaller allies the germans used for such marginal tasks as target towing for flak gunners, and relatively decent french fighters for training! Sure, every flybale old crate would be useful in some auxiliary roles, but the more modern machines used for such second line roles was a waste. Could have exchanged obsolete minor allies machines (bombers, fighters, recce mainly) for more modern french ones even on a one to one bassis (so numbers far less than the total the germans captured), would have been a significant improvement for the smaller allies. F.e. Romania still had PZL-11F in frontline service and air defence in six (!) squadrons 1941-1942, plus 2 squadrons of PZL-24. Imagine having those replaced with "old" MS-406 or MB-152s. Hungarians were still flying CR-32s and 42s, the finns fixed gear Fokkers D-XXI Mercury, and the even worse Wasp variant, and so on and so on.
 
Last edited:
A similar question came up a while back, & a proposal or question of that discussion concerned the use of the larger French aircraft for very long range maritime patrol. The idea was the number of four engine aircraft available in June 1940 could support a operational group of maybe two dozen VLR aircraft to supplement the FW200 over the Atlantic. Obviously this is not a decisive war winner, but such things never are. Rather how much more damage to the Brit cargo fleet would occur with a larger reconissance fleet, & if a expanded maritime bomber force was possible?
 

Deleted member 1487

A similar question came up a while back, & a proposal or question of that discussion concerned the use of the larger French aircraft for very long range maritime patrol. The idea was the number of four engine aircraft available in June 1940 could support a operational group of maybe two dozen VLR aircraft to supplement the FW200 over the Atlantic. Obviously this is not a decisive war winner, but such things never are. Rather how much more damage to the Brit cargo fleet would occur with a larger reconissance fleet, & if a expanded maritime bomber force was possible?
Which French aircraft do you mean?
 
...
What is your source for the previous claims about American supply chains for France and sabotage of factories?

....

On my shelf here is Kleins 'A Call to Arms' a 800 page quick look at the US industrial mobilization. It has some passages on the French and other European orders of material & arms after the Nuetrality Acts were repealed in 1939. I found a couple monographs on the subject, but did not keep a list of their titles/location. Short version is the French took their lessons learned from the use of US industry in the Great War & were fitting US capacity into their own industrial mobilization from 1938. The Nuetrality Acts restricted 'war material' previous to the autum of 1939, but the French (& others) sought to circle round it by purchasing material so generic it would pass the restrictions. 'Others' included Germany which had a fair trade with the US before war started, and attempted to keep that up post Sept 1939.
 
I'd have to search out the discussion to see what aircraft were brought up.

Heres a list of the longer ranged aircraft, with no particular regard to specs or anything else.

Bloch 210

MB220 airliner, potiential for extra fuel tanks for VLR reconissance

CAMS55 Maritime Reconissance

Breguet Br. 521 VLR & used in small numbers by Germany 1941-44

LeO H-47. VLR transport.

Loire 130. VLR flying boat 125 built

Latecoere 521. Actually a whole series of VLR flying boat transports & naval versions up to the 631 first flown in 1942. All built in small numbers.


limited production possible.
Breguet 482. Two prototypes in 1940. One used as test platform post 1945.

Potez-CAMS 141. One prototype built & flown by Vichy French as transport into 1943. VLR with 30 hour endurance claimed

MB 162. VLR bomber design. Prototype flown & later used by Germans as long range transport.

MB 135 A prototype had flown in 1939.

Amoit 150. A naval reconissance bomber version of the Amoit 140. One prototype flown 1939.

In theory older models like the Farman 220 could be used, but not on my watch. Some of the twin engine bombers had theoretical potiential with adding fuel tanks. If one is going to set up production of a modern combat design then maybe examples like the MB162.
 

Deleted member 1487

MB 162. VLR bomber design. Prototype flown & later used by Germans as long range transport.
If one is going to set up production of a modern combat design then maybe examples like the MB162.
If you're going to go with a land based bomber this is probably the one to go with...the problem is that it was still a prototype and only slated for mass production in 1941. By 1940 the Germans would probably be better off developing the Do26 for the naval recon role. But the French bomber was certainly better than the FW200 and the non-functional He177. Had they put some DB601/605s on it it probably would have been a solid heavy bomber that would have been extremely useful on the Eastern Front.

It seems to me that if we're to make a ground attack aircraft out of the Potez or Breguet, the latter is more suitable, especially if based on the latest Br.700 with GR14N engines. If adding much increased armour for pilots, engines, systems etc. decreases the speed by say 50 or even 75kph, the Breguet could still do almost 500kph, a decent performance much superior to the Hs-129, AND it has a rear gunner. With more power should also be able to carry more weapons. Adding same armour and coresponding speed loss for the GR14M equipped Potez-63 or Breguet-693 reduced the speed to under 400kph, worse than the Henschel.
The Potez 670 was the heavy fighter version and very similar to the Bf110, but lighter and able to be functional with the G-R 14M (obviously better with the 14N or R); using Bf110 bomb racks it would be a solid fighter-bomber/light bomber for the Eastern Front just due to the Soviets especially in 1941-42 not really having decent air defense for the front lines, so given that the Germans didn't need to set up new production lines (the first 40 were delivered in June 1940), build more engines beyond what they could in Germany (and have captured stocks to use in France), and could even use existing French guns for it (HS404 for instance) it's an extremely low cost option to equip ground attack units for 1941 and IMHO better than the HS129 for bombing and even mounting a centerline cannon for tank plinking given the history of the Bf110. As a slower Bf110 with lower bomb carrying capacity, it would actually be ideal in the East as the Bf110 gets withdrawn to operate as a night-fighter in Germany and production was disrupted with the Me210 mess. It could survive in the low threat environment, do what the Bf110 did, and be cheap as dirt relative to developing the HS129 or any other domestic German design, because it already existed in France and had the production lines ready to go with a mature engine that the Germans were already using in other capacities (and used IOTL).

The Bre 693/5/7 would be a good option in the short term if they have enough of them ready to go if they could not fit bomb racks to the Potez 670 quickly enough. Again getting the G-R 14N would be better than the 14M, but the 14M was workable given the low threat environment at was at play in the East in 1941-42 (and with engine upgrades it would even be viable in 1943 and probably a better option than the Ju87G thanks to being able to center line mount an autocannon for tank busting and being much faster and easier to fly). Loading up the Breguet with extra armor probably isn't that necessary for use in the East inn 1941 either and even if they did a 250 max mph isn't really that bad considering the Ju87 was able to survive just fine with an even slower max speed and worse armor protection than an upgraded Bre 693 (thanks to having two engines and more power than the Ju87, plus being more streamlined thanks to retractable landing gear). Still, IMHO it would be less desireable except as a back up in case they couldn't make the Potez 670 into a replacement Bf110 to free it up for night-fighting duty in the West.
http://www.aviastar.org/air/france/potez-670.php

Btw i'm reading with increasing dismay how many relatively good aircraft useful for the smaller allies the germans used for such marginal tasks as target towing for flak gunners, and relatively decent french fighters for training! Sure, every flybale old crate would be useful in some auxiliary roles, but the more modern machines used for such second line roles was a waste. Could have exchanged obsolete minor allies machines (bombers, fighters, recce mainly) for more modern french ones even on a one to one bassis (so numbers far less than the total the germans captured), would have been a significant improvement for the smaller allies. F.e. Romania still had PZL-11F in frontline service and air defence in six (!) squadrons 1941-1942, plus 2 squadrons of PZL-24. Imagine having those replaced with "old" MS-406 or MB-152s. Hungarians were still flying CR-32s and 42s, the finns fixed gear Fokkers D-XXI Mercury, and the even worse Wasp variant, and so on and so on.
They would have loved to probably use a lot more modern French stuff, but the issue was getting enough of it produced IOTL. The French slow walked production, so the Germans would have needed to really take more control of the production situation to get French labor willing to work. If they did that the Axis minor air forces in the East would have seriously upgraded by having French aircraft. The Leo45 would have been a massive upgrade to the existing motley bunch of Axis aircraft there; forget the Me210C for the Hungarians, they'd have been better off standardizing on French stuff under forced license like the LeO45. For the Italians it was better than their domestic designs too. Same with the Romanians. Getting them from the French was probably not that viable, but getting license production going in Hungary/Romania/Italy was probably do-able.

Getting the Axis minor powers to build this would probably work too:
http://www.aviastar.org/air/france/potez-230.php
They could even make the less production intense HS-12Xcrs or 12Y engine domestically too, rather than the larger and more complex DB605.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
...
The Potez 670 was the heavy fighter version and very similar to the Bf110, but lighter and able to be functional with the G-R 14M (obviously better with the 14N or R); using Bf110 bomb racks it would be a solid fighter-bomber/light bomber for the Eastern Front just due to the Soviets especially in 1941-42 not really having decent air defense for the front lines, so given that the Germans didn't need to set up new production lines (the first 40 were delivered in June 1940), build more engines beyond what they could in Germany (and have captured stocks to use in France), and could even use existing French guns for it (HS404 for instance) it's an extremely low cost option to equip ground attack units for 1941 and IMHO better than the HS129 for bombing and even mounting a centerline cannon for tank plinking given the history of the Bf110. As a slower Bf110 with lower bomb carrying capacity, it would actually be ideal in the East as the Bf110 gets withdrawn to operate as a night-fighter in Germany and production was disrupted with the Me210 mess. It could survive in the low threat environment, do what the Bf110 did, and be cheap as dirt relative to developing the HS129 or any other domestic German design, because it already existed in France and had the production lines ready to go with a mature engine that the Germans were already using in other capacities (and used IOTL).

If the French can actually produce the G&R 14R - install those on the Fw 190, Ju-88, He-111, Ju-87, Bf 110, perhaps even on the Bf 109. The 14R weighted twice as much as 14M, so IMO the installation on the Potez 630 or Breguet 693 series woudl've been quite a stretch.
The 14N was considerably lighter than the 14R, thus less of a stretch. OTOH - a 14N-powered Ju 87 and/or Bf 110 looks as a better application of that engine IMO.
German (or anybody elses's) use of the aircraft that is much slower and with far less armament capacity than Bf 110 is a false economy. Form 1940 on, Germans need an aircraft that will use two crew members and two engines in order to carry 2000-4000 kg worth of armament (guns + ammo + bombs/rockets), not the aircraft that can carry 500 kg worth of armament while also using two engines and two crew members.
The 'dirt cheap' qualifier for the Potez does not take into account that trained crew and fuel is not dirt cheap, the force of any given number of Potez 630 bombers will use more crew and fuel in order to plaster the Soviets with a given bomb load than the force of Ju 87 bombers delivering the same bomb load, while also being bigger a drain for maintenance due to greater number of engines used.
Want more of French gear to be used? Cram the 25mm AA guns on the Ju 87, Bf 110 or Hs 129.
BTW - what is a low-threat enviroement for a 520-550 km/h Bf 110 was not for the 420-460 km/h Potez.

The Bre 693/5/7 would be a good option in the short term if they have enough of them ready to go if they could not fit bomb racks to the Potez 670 quickly enough. Again getting the G-R 14N would be better than the 14M, but the 14M was workable given the low threat environment at was at play in the East in 1941-42 (and with engine upgrades it would even be viable in 1943 and probably a better option than the Ju87G thanks to being able to center line mount an autocannon for tank busting and being much faster and easier to fly). Loading up the Breguet with extra armor probably isn't that necessary for use in the East inn 1941 either and even if they did a 250 max mph isn't really that bad considering the Ju87 was able to survive just fine with an even slower max speed and worse armor protection than an upgraded Bre 693 (thanks to having two engines and more power than the Ju87, plus being more streamlined thanks to retractable landing gear).

We might as well decide whether extra amor is needed or not for the German ground-attack aircraft, and stick to the decision. And as above - what is a healthy envoroement for one type of aircraft might not be for another type. Ju 87 was able to survive with fighter escort in the East, the Bf 110 was less dependent on it.

Getting the Axis minor powers to build this would probably work too:
http://www.aviastar.org/air/france/potez-230.php
They could even make the less production intense HS-12Xcrs or 12Y engine domestically too, rather than the larger and more complex DB605.

Produce the darned Bf 109 - simple, cheap, performer.
The HS-12X was a fine engine in 1930, a dog by 1938-ish. Both 12X and 12Y were as big as DB 601. Complex DB 605 produces a 600-650 km/h fighter, the Hs 12Y can't compete. For 1941 and above it is hopeless above 5 km. Italians alredy have the I-F Asso XI for 900 HP V12 if they want it, and that is for 1937.

(edited to correct some mistakes)
 
Last edited:
Lost my reference for German aircraft production. What was it in 1941? 10,000? 15,000? 20,000? In 1942 it surpassed 30,000 operational aircraft. How many French built aircraft would need to be built to make any difference? That depends in part on model or type & application. That maybe why the other thread mentioned turned to VLR maritime reconissance bombers. A few dozen make a larger impact than most other applications.
 

Deleted member 1487

Lost my reference for German aircraft production. What was it in 1941? 10,000? 15,000? 20,000? In 1942 it surpassed 30,000 operational aircraft. How many French built aircraft would need to be built to make any difference? That depends in part on model or type & application. That maybe why the other thread mentioned turned to VLR maritime reconissance bombers. A few dozen make a larger impact than most other applications.
For 1941 probably not many depending on the role; in terms of having say 200 more four engine naval recon they could have an outsized impact. Having another 3-500 CAS aircraft for Barbarossa could really matter too if they could find the pilots for them. Total combat aircraft for 1941 was 9,422, with I think a total close to 13,000 of all types.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_aircraft_production_during_World_War_II
 
Lost my reference for German aircraft production. What was it in 1941? 10,000? 15,000? 20,000? In 1942 it surpassed 30,000 operational aircraft.

9422 in 1941. Plus trainers and civilain aircraft, that gives 12401 for 1941 grand total. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_aircraft_production_during_World_War_II
UK and USSR combined produced about 3 times as much in same year. To make things worse for Germany, UK and, from mid-1941, the USSR were able to buy aircraft in the USA, while Germany was to equip other Axis air forces. Even Italy, with 13400 aircraft produced in all of ww2, was buying aircraft (Bf 109, Ju 87, Do 217) in Germany. Thus any hundred, let alone thousand of aircraft that can be shipped from France is sorely needed.
Other problem Germany has was low output of DB 601 engines in 1940/41 - circa 500 monthly. This is where the French engines might come in handy, even if they are installed on the Bf 110 thus leaving the DB 601 to be installed on the 1-engined fighters only.

How many French built aircraft would need to be built to make any difference? That depends in part on model or type & application. That maybe why the other thread mentioned turned to VLR maritime reconissance bombers. A few dozen make a larger impact than most other applications.

Yes, the VLR MP aircraft are/were force multipliers.
 

Deleted member 1487

If the French can actually produce the G&R 14R - install those on the Fw 190, Ju-88, He-111, Ju-87, Bf 110, perhaps even on the Bf 109. The 14R weighted twice as much as 14M, so IMO the installation on the Potez 630 or Breguet 693 series woudl've been quite a stretch.
The 14N was considerably lighter than the 14R, thus less of a stretch. OTOH - a 14N-powered Ju 87 and/or Bf 110 looks as a better application of that engine IMO.
German (or anybody elses's) use of the aircraft that is much slower and with far less armament capacity than Bf 110 is a false economy. Form 1940 on, Germans need an aircraft that will use two crew members and two engines in order to carry 2000-4000 kg worth of armament (guns + ammo + bombs/rockets), not the aircraft that can carry 500 kg worth of armament while also using two engines and two crew members.
The 'dirt cheap' qualifier for the Potez does not take into account that trained crew and fuel is not dirt cheap, the force of any given number of Potez 630 bombers will use more crew and fuel in order to plaster the Soviets with a given bomb load than the force of Ju 87 bombers delivering the same bomb load, while also being bigger a drain for maintenance due to greater number of engines used.
Want more of French gear to be used? Cram the 25mm AA guns on the Ju 87, Bf 110 or Hs 129.
BTW - what is a low-threat enviroement for a 520-550 km/h Bf 110 was not for the 420-460 km/h Potez.
Whoa there you cannot simply drop a French engine into a German aircraft without a power egg configuration. Putting a radial in a Ju87 is not possible without a major redesign and production line shift. Even putting the G-R 14R into the FW190 would require a major redesign. Hitting it to say the He-111 and Ju88 might be doable though. Its not too much for the Bf110, which means the Potez 630/670 could take it, but the Breguet would have to stick to the 14N. But you can't stick a 14N in a Ju87 and the Bf110 already had a superior engine to the 14N. The entire point of using the 14M or N in a French aircraft is to make the best use of a weak engine, leave the German designs with their more powerful German engines (other than perhaps the 14R).
The pilots would be the tougher part, but you could you pilots with an abbreviated training cycle that are relatively poor pilots for the ground attack role; later on the Germans were using far less well trained pilots for Schlachtgeschwader and still having good success even using them in the advanced Fw190F.
You're missing the point about using limited payloads with the smaller French aircraft like the Bre 693, it's not the size of the load, its the ability to put it on target with CAS. The fucking Hs129 carried half the load at lower speed and range with the same engines! When recommending their use I'm saying their a better option than the historical use for the engines with the HS129. A rear gunner is easy to train, the pilot too is not that hard for a low flying aircraft with as forgiving of flight characteristics as the Bre 693. Especially if it can fly low and maneuverable and at a better speed than the Stuka it will be even more surviveable. Given that there was a hard upper limit on how many Ju87s there were available in 1941, then having any extra aircraft is already a bonus, especially if you didn't have to make the engines or aircraft because they were captured in 1940 or made on French lines prior to Barbarossa. The only cost would be the pilot and ground crew, but for say 40-100 addition CAS aircraft in June 1941 that's not a hard ask, especially if it went to AG-North that lacked any ground support allotment except when detached for specific operations. Are you seriously going to tell me that it wouldn't have been valuable to have 40 Bre 693s flying in support of 4th Panzer Group in June 1941 at Raseiniai where the Panzers had NO air support at all once the battle was underway for 4 days? There weren't any Bf110s or Ju87s available as they were all detailed to AG-Center and -South. There were no Hs129s until a few were available in May 1942 and then they had major problems due to lack of engine filters. Better to have the much more effective Bre 693 in 1941 and figure out issues like air filters then, plus render some additional air support beyond what was available IOTL.
And the low threat environment they'd deal with in 1941-42 would be the same one the Ju87 and Hs129 (in 1942) had to deal with and survive, which they did.


We might as well decide whether extra amor is needed or not for the German ground-attack aircraft, and stick to the decision. And as above - what is a healthy envoroement for one type of aircraft might not be for another type. Ju 87 was able to survive with fighter escort in the East, the Bf 110 was less dependent on it.
Except there weren't any more Ju87s available to use where needed because production was limited and there were no HS129s until 1942. So better to have Bre 693s or Potez 670s in 1941-42 in larger numbers and phase them out later for more capable aircraft. The Ju87 didn't really even need fighter support in 1941 due to the skies being mostly swept of VVS, while in 1942 in the primary battle zones they were again free to act as they pleased; things only got hairy with Soviet fighters in 1943 when 75% of the Luftwaffe SE fighters were needed in the West and nearly all double engine fighters were removed too. But then that is the time for the G-R 14N or R Potez 670 heavy fighters to shine for ground support or fighter-bomber missions.

Produce the darned Bf 109 - simple, cheap, performer.
The HS-12X was a fine engine in 1930, a dog by 1938-ish. Both 12X and 12Y were as big as DB 601. Complex DB 605 produces a 600-650 km/h fighter, the Hs 12Y can't compete. For 1941 and above it is hopeless above 5 km. Italians alredy have the I-F Asso XI for 900 HP V12 if they want it, and that is for 1937.

(edited to correct some mistakes)
It was not good for ground attack because of it's liquid cooled engine, so the Germans dumped them for fighter-bombing as soon as something better was available; apparently too the undercarriage did not handle the bomb load well either and led to a LOT of accidents. In terms of as a pure fighter...well there were only so many DB 601/605 engines to go around and the Germans didn't have enough of their own, while reengining them for the lower powered French engines takes time and delays introduction for a lower performing aircraft. Might as well have a lighter fighter designed around the engine in the first place. In the East in 1942 and beyond fighting stayed below 5km for the most part and with the quality of pilots that the Axis minor powers had, which was surprisingly good, they could do well with the French fighters. Give it to the Slovaks, Romanians, and Hungarians.


9422 in 1941. Plus trainers and civilain aircraft, that gives 12401 for 1941 grand total. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_aircraft_production_during_World_War_II
UK and USSR combined produced about 3 times as much in same year. To make things worse for Germany, UK and, from mid-1941, the USSR were able to buy aircraft in the USA, while Germany was to equip other Axis air forces. Even Italy, with 13400 aircraft produced in all of ww2, was buying aircraft (Bf 109, Ju 87, Do 217) in Germany. Thus any hundred, let alone thousand of aircraft that can be shipped from France is sorely needed.
Other problem Germany has was low output of DB 601 engines in 1940/41 - circa 500 monthly. This is where the French engines might come in handy, even if they are installed on the Bf 110 thus leaving the DB 601 to be installed on the 1-engined fighters only.
Soviet production didn't do the Soviets any good in 1941-42, they lost as many aircraft to accidents as combat (more actually in 1941 to accidents), which indicates that not only were Soviet pilots pretty bad and unprepared for the new aircraft, but also that a lot of the new aircraft were lower production quality and failed in flight. For T-34s that breakdown, as many did even as late as 1944 due to production quality, that's not a problem, repair them with new parts and move on; doesn't work so well for an aircraft that breaks down in flight or upon landing/take off.
Agreed that nearly any additional combat aircraft would be helpful to Axis powers. The only issue is converting German air frames to foreign engines, which would be a problem. Plus the Bf110 had serious problems with being underpowered, so taking even lower powered French engines means its and even less maneuverable dog than it was in 1940. If they can get developed G-R 14R engines that would be a different story even if they needed 92 or 100 octane fuel...but the issue I gather is the engines weren't ready for production in 1941:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNECMA_14R
The improved 14R was initially known as the Gnome-Rhône 14R. With the Fall of France, engine development was stopped under the occupation. After the war, development recommenced; however production of this engine after 1945 was transferred to the newly formed Snecma and the engine was renamed the: SNECMA 14R.

Yes, the VLR MP aircraft are/were force multipliers.
Agreed.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Deleted member 9338

One area that France can help the Germans out with are transports, these were always in high demand if not considered sexy.
 
Whoa there you cannot simply drop a French engine into a German aircraft without a power egg configuration. Putting a radial in a Ju87 is not possible without a major redesign and production line shift. Even putting the G-R 14R into the FW190 would require a major redesign. Hitting it to say the He-111 and Ju88 might be doable though. Its not too much for the Bf110, which means the Potez 630/670 could take it, but the Breguet would have to stick to the 14N. But you can't stick a 14N in a Ju87 and the Bf110 already had a superior engine to the 14N. The entire point of using the 14M or N in a French aircraft is to make the best use of a weak engine, leave the German designs with their more powerful German engines (other than perhaps the 14R).

The aircraft that already have the reasonably heavy engines will have far less problems with other heavy engines installed, than the aircraft that started with light engines. The Jumo 211/DB 601 + cooling system + oil system will be around 900 kg, or in the ballpark with G&R 14R + oil system, or perhaps 100-150 kg less than 14N + oil system; prop will weight about the same, and engine bearers will not gain in weight, ditto for wing or fuselage attachment points. Fuel consumption will increase for the 14R, and will remain in ballpark with 14N now installed.
The 14M, on the other hand, will weight perhaps 500 kg with oil system, will use lighter prop than those more powerful engines. Low weight bearers and attachment points. Installing two 14R engines on the Potez or Breguet twins adds easy 1000 kg (30% more empty weight), and more than doubles fuel consumption. What about G limit? How would we re-ballance extra 1000 kg, with further impact on G limit? Do we double the fuel tankage, and how to adress the G limit now? All of those things are not present with Ju-87 or Bf 110 getting the 14R; the 14N installed even relaxes G limit.
The 14N on the Potez should represent a less risky redesign, though, as it was when they went to that heavy fighter derivate.
Nobody claimed that 14N is superior to the DB 601/605, I've proposed the re-engineing job in order to have more 601/605 engines for 1-engined fighters, still leaving an useful 110 variant.

The pilots would be the tougher part, but you could you pilots with an abbreviated training cycle that are relatively poor pilots for the ground attack role; later on the Germans were using far less well trained pilots for Schlachtgeschwader and still having good success even using them in the advanced Fw190F.
You're missing the point about using limited payloads with the smaller French aircraft like the Bre 693, it's not the size of the load, its the ability to put it on target with CAS. The fucking Hs129 carried half the load at lower speed and range with the same engines! When recommending their use I'm saying their a better option than the historical use for the engines with the HS129. A rear gunner is easy to train, the pilot too is not that hard for a low flying aircraft with as forgiving of flight characteristics as the Bre 693.

I don't agree that low-hour pilot, flying an aircraft that lugs 2 x 200 kg bombs, will be as good return of investment as the fully trained pilots flying the aircraft lugging several times the bomb load. The Hs 129 sported 20mm cannons and armoured thub (the things French aircraft lacked, thus making them vulnerable to the small arms) while carrying up to 6 x 50 kg of bombs.

Especially if it can fly low and maneuverable and at a better speed than the Stuka it will be even more surviveable. Given that there was a hard upper limit on how many Ju87s there were available in 1941, then having any extra aircraft is already a bonus, especially if you didn't have to make the engines or aircraft because they were captured in 1940 or made on French lines prior to Barbarossa. The only cost would be the pilot and ground crew, but for say 40-100 addition CAS aircraft in June 1941 that's not a hard ask, especially if it went to AG-North that lacked any ground support allotment except when detached for specific operations. Are you seriously going to tell me that it wouldn't have been valuable to have 40 Bre 693s flying in support of 4th Panzer Group in June 1941 at Raseiniai where the Panzers had NO air support at all once the battle was underway for 4 days? There weren't any Bf110s or Ju87s available as they were all detailed to AG-Center and -South. There were no Hs129s until a few were available in May 1942 and then they had major problems due to lack of engine filters. Better to have the much more effective Bre 693 in 1941 and figure out issues like air filters then, plus render some additional air support beyond what was available IOTL.
And the low threat environment they'd deal with in 1941-42 would be the same one the Ju87 and Hs129 (in 1942) had to deal with and survive, which they did.

I'm seriously going to tell you that a comparison between aircraft A and B, vs. the comparison between aircraft A and no-aircraft is not the same. So yes, having Potez and/or Breguets flying close support missions is much better proposals than no close support missions.
German 'hard limit' was not just on Stukas, but on other aircraft, since they, for reasons above and beyond this thread, missed to increase production in the same or better rate than British and Soviets from 1939 on.

It was not good for ground attack because of it's liquid cooled engine, so the Germans dumped them for fighter-bombing as soon as something better was available...

The proposal for 'all-Axis' Bf 109 production was a counter-proposal for the Potez 230, the fighter with liquid cooled engine.

Plus the Bf110 had serious problems with being underpowered, so taking even lower powered French engines means its and even less maneuverable dog than it was in 1940.

Bf 110 was certainly not underpowered vs. many aircraft in wide scale use, especially vs. the Potez 630 or Breguet bombers we're discussing right now. The maneuverability will go up with lighter 14N installed.
 
Using French long range aircraft, whether land based or seaplanes for maritime patrol, or in the case of seaplanes perhaps air sea rescue as well, would be quite helpful especially until 1943 or so. Early on the RAF had enough on its hands to deal with flights over Britain to try and go hunting for MPA over the Bay of Biscay and west, or down to Gibraltar. CAM ships will help, but this is s one shot deal. Until you can get long range fighters free to hunt MPA and baby carriers with larger convoys any extra help that the U-boats can get will be painful for the UK. These aircraft will probably get to sink a few merchants as well, not many but every little bit helps.
 

Deleted member 1487

Using French long range aircraft, whether land based or seaplanes for maritime patrol, or in the case of seaplanes perhaps air sea rescue as well, would be quite helpful especially until 1943 or so. Early on the RAF had enough on its hands to deal with flights over Britain to try and go hunting for MPA over the Bay of Biscay and west, or down to Gibraltar. CAM ships will help, but this is s one shot deal. Until you can get long range fighters free to hunt MPA and baby carriers with larger convoys any extra help that the U-boats can get will be painful for the UK. These aircraft will probably get to sink a few merchants as well, not many but every little bit helps.
Depending on what they can find and use or put into production it would certainly help these guys:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fliegerführer_Atlantik
The question is where the pilots are coming from. But the above does say this:
The command flew in action and achieved considerable success in 1941. British shipping losses rose. Prime Minister Winston Churchill referred to Fliegerführer Atlantik and its main weapon of war, the Focke-Wulf Fw 200 Condor, as the "scourge of the Atlantic". Nevertheless, at the close of that year British and Allied countermeasures tamed the threat from long-range German aircraft. As the battles in the Atlantic intensified in 1942 and 1943 the command made continuous demands for aircraft and crews. Now engaged heavily in other theatres, the Luftwaffe could not afford the resources for Atlantic operations.
Apparently CAM ships did settle the hash of the Condor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Fw_200_Condor#Operational_history
From mid-1941, Condor crews were instructed to stop attacking shipping and avoid all combat in order to preserve numbers. In August, the first Fw 200 was shot down by a CAM ship-launched Hawker Hurricane, and the arrival of the U.S.-built Grumman Martlet, operating from the Royal Navy's new escort carriers, posed a serious threat. On 14 August 1942, an Fw 200C-3 was the first German aircraft to be destroyed by USAAF pilots, after it was attacked by a P-40C and a P-38F over Iceland.[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAM_ship#CAM_combat_launches
 
Agreed - however at most you had one CAM ship with a convoy. Once the Hurricane was launched that was it. The next day MPA could overfly with impunity. Also, not every launch resulted in a shoot-down.
 

Deleted member 1487

Agreed - however at most you had one CAM ship with a convoy. Once the Hurricane was launched that was it. The next day MPA could overfly with impunity. Also, not every launch resulted in a shoot-down.
Sure, but the CAM ships were just to tide things over until Escort carriers were ready, which they were by the end of the year, as it was only 8 CAM ship launches were necessary the entire war! So unless there is a lot more spotting by Luftwaffe naval recon of convoys its unlikely a CAM would need to launch once per transit let alone multiple times.
 
Whoa there you cannot simply drop a French engine into a German aircraft without a power egg configuration.

Though look what Curtiss did with the P-36, Wright, Pratt&Whitney and Allison testbed.

Motor mounts, and paying attention to the Center of Gravity from weight of the engine
 

Deleted member 1487

Though look what Curtiss did with the P-36, Wright, Pratt&Whitney and Allison testbed.

Motor mounts, and paying attention to the Center of Gravity from weight of the engine
How long did that take and how many changes to the production line did that entail?
 
Top