Luftwaffe and Regia Aeronautica, the nemeses

For some really in-depth technical and other papers (including the drivers and reasoning for increased German-Japanese technical co-operation(now, how realistic that would have been is another question seeing how xenophobic our Japanese friends were)i would recommend this site, some good fiction in there as well.

http://francefightson.yuku.com/
 
Yeah, that site is a really good effort, and it give some very good ideas to ponder on, so much kudos to the creators and contributors, but like i posted in this thread earlier, some of their ideas are somewhat overoptimistic my view, especially with such a late POD (1940). Imo the kind of technical exchange described between Japan and Germany and Italy would be severely hampered because of the distances involved, it will take a long time to do things like start building the Kinsei and D4Y in Italy for instance (the Kinsei in particular does not worth the effort really as existing 14 cylinders italian radials could be brought to close power levels as the Kinsei), and again as i pointed earlier, some of the japanese engines that in APOD so influence the germans actually did not exist in 1940 (no Homare-22, no Kinsei-23 and no MK9A)!

Tell you what though, there is a closer sources of engines which could significantly help Italy in an ATL scenario, namely France. Once France is occupied, the GR14R and HS12Z (and even the 14N and 12Y) engines would be useful for both italian and some german aircraft, if the decision would have been made to actually take full advantage of the remaining french aeronautical industry and continue building and improving the latest engines and aircraft within possibilities, rather than having technical improvements all but frozen.
 
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So some other ideas i was thinking about, i'm wondering if anyone ever saw a low wing FW-159 concept, always wondered how would the competition have gone if FW's entry would have been a low wing monoplane too. The fuselage lines are certainly predating the FW-190.

Another idea, one of the major problems for german aircraft in the second half of the 1930s was lack of powerful engines, until the DB-600/601 and Jumo-211 came along in numbers they only had the puny 20 litre 700HP max Jumo-210. But what if they designed it, or a paralel development like the french did with HS-12X and Y, for say 25-27 litres and 800-900HP? Would certainly help improve the performance of things like Bf-109B (probably to over 500kph from the OTL 460 or whatever it was), Me-110B, as well as any He-112s, making it easier to get exports without having to sell the latest DB-601 and Jumo-211.

On the same subject, wondering what if they made the Jumo-213 bigger as well, they kept the 35 liters capacity of the 211, but if it would have been a 40 litre class engine like the DB-603, perhaps power could have been easily brought to 1900-2000HP without boost (and easily 2300-2400HP with MW-50 boost), although the engine would have been a bit heavier.

Finally, would the ME-209A (V5) have been of any use to built at any time? In an ATL scenario i'm playing with in my head, they work on this instead of the monstruosity that was Me-309, so Me-209A flies in 1942, about same timeframe as the FW-190C and fitted with DB-603 or Jumo-213 engine as they are available.
 
Yeah, that site is a really good effort, and it give some very good ideas to ponder on, so much kudos to the creators and contributors, but like i posted in this thread earlier, some of their ideas are somewhat overoptimistic my view, especially with such a late POD (1940). Imo the kind of technical exchange described between Japan and Germany and Italy would be severely hampered because of the distances involved, it will take a long time to do things like start building the Kinsei and D4Y in Italy for instance (the Kinsei in particular does not worth the effort really as existing 14 cylinders italian radials could be brought to close power levels as the Kinsei), and again as i pointed earlier, some of the japanese engines that in APOD so influence the germans actually did not exist in 1940 (no Homare-22, no Kinsei-23 and no MK9A)!

Homare in 1940 - talk about the optimism!

Tell you what though, there is a closer sources of engines which could significantly help Italy in an ATL scenario, namely France. Once France is occupied, the GR14R and HS12Z (and even the 14N and 12Y) engines would be useful for both italian and some german aircraft, if the decision would have been made to actually take full advantage of the remaining french aeronautical industry and continue building and improving the latest engines and aircraft within possibilities, rather than having technical improvements all but frozen.

Anything that can help out with Italian small production is a worthwhile proposal. If the engine really must be of 900 HP (1935-40, move up from mid/late 1940 on), better be V12 instead of radial - lower drag, plus early installations were generaly better figured out.

So some other ideas i was thinking about, i'm wondering if anyone ever saw a low wing FW-159 concept, always wondered how would the competition have gone if FW's entry would have been a low wing monoplane too. The fuselage lines are certainly predating the FW-190.

Low wing 159 (cantilever hopefully) - excellent idea.

Another idea, one of the major problems for german aircraft in the second half of the 1930s was lack of powerful engines, until the DB-600/601 and Jumo-211 came along in numbers they only had the puny 20 litre 700HP max Jumo-210. But what if they designed it, or a paralel development like the french did with HS-12X and Y, for say 25-27 litres and 800-900HP? Would certainly help improve the performance of things like Bf-109B (probably to over 500kph from the OTL 460 or whatever it was), Me-110B, as well as any He-112s, making it easier to get exports without having to sell the latest DB-601 and Jumo-211.

There was the DB 600 around, by 1935, 800-900 HP engine at altitude, a bit smaller displacement than HS 12X or 12Y. Otherwise - licence produce the Kestrel, or, even better, the Buzzard. Steal the 'R' engine?
The Jumo 210 was hopeless at altitude, barely making 500-600 HP above 4 km - Kestrel was better per each year/model compared. Germans do have a problem with churning out enough of DB engines before 1942, and Jumo 211 is a bit late into production until late 1940.
Another option is BMW 117 - a V12 comparable with DB 600, in second half of 1930s, development cancelled with BMW-Bramo merger and RLM decision that new/old company focuses on radial engines. We can just wonder how many V12 engines thus were not available for the LW in crucial 1939-42 time frame.

On the same subject, wondering what if they made the Jumo-213 bigger as well, they kept the 35 liters capacity of the 211, but if it would have been a 40 litre class engine like the DB-603, perhaps power could have been easily brought to 1900-2000HP without boost (and easily 2300-2400HP with MW-50 boost), although the engine would have been a bit heavier.

Unless the Jumo 222 is cancelled early enough, the Jumo 213 will not bear fruit before too late. By late 1943 can we please have it in 2-stage form, like it was the 213E from late 1944 per OTL?
The Jumo 213 of 40L might be turning 3000 RPM instead of 3250, ie. the power remaining about the same? The DB 603 was turning 2700 rpm.

Finally, would the ME-209A (V5) have been of any use to built at any time? In an ATL scenario i'm playing with in my head, they work on this instead of the monstruosity that was Me-309, so Me-209A flies in 1942, about same timeframe as the FW-190C and fitted with DB-603 or Jumo-213 engine as they are available.

Either 213 or 603 are needed for the Fw 190 to remain competitive in 1944. The warbird 209 makes sense, too, IMO. Early development of 2-stage DB 605?
 
Italians have had an interesting, if experimental, fighter line, namely the SAI Ambrosinin fighters. The SAI 207 was good for 575 km/h, with engine of 750 HP at rated altitude. Two HMGs. Later SAI 403 dardo was supposed to have also two cannons installed; the Wikipedia speed figures are very optimistic, though. The good turn of speed was possible due to the fighters being small, eg. the wing area was just 156 sq ft, and wing looks to be of thin profile.
A very good resource on Italian aircraft, includes the SAI 207: pdf
 
Okay, since this is a current what-if about Luftwaffe - a bit on the airborne guns & cannons.

MG FF as base; push for bigger drums/boxes early, plus a belt-fed variant; lighter shell for greater MV, Mine shell as historically.
Bigger/better cannon? a 25-ish mm, shell of 200 (Mine) to 250 g (HE), for ~750 m/s and 600 rpm.
Even bigger cannon? 35-37mm, 500-700 g shell at 700-650 m/s, 400 rpm.
Smaller weapon for turrets and defensive positions? A 15mm cannon, but not the heavy MG 151/15 with great & demanding 960 m/s, but something at 750+ m/s so a lighter & smaller weapon is made. Skip the MG 131.
 
From another thread:

Thank you for clearing that up and sorry about getting that info wrong.
Now with those two engines NOT being available for the fictionally early Dora, what if the Luftwaffe used instead one of the following bomber engines that were available by 1942:
Junkers Jumo 211
Junkers Jumo 222 (Although in short supply)
BMW VI

Please answer, because it is obvious that you know your stuff on this subject. (No sarcasm intended)

The BMW VI is a non-starter, being 1015 years behind the curve. The Jumo 222 never powered an in-service aircraft, so it won't cut here. Though, cancelling the 222 before the 1st piece of metal is cast might advance the Jumo 213 time-line considerably.
Jumo 211 is interesting, at least the 211J - the intercooled variant. Available by early 1942. It will cut weight and drag vs. BMW 801, thus negating the power lost with 211 installed by a good deal. Lower weight means better maneuverability, too. It will also consume much less of fuel per air mile travelled, hence the range/radius is much increased. Uses B4 fuel, that is easier to come by. The '211F Fw-190' would've probably been good as the Fiat G.55 in 1943, and, with better Jumo 211 versions available (-N, -P and -R) it would've been a bit better. Just forget the fuselage MGs....

There is also the DB 601/605 series of engines, that again benefit with streamlining, weight and consumption/range/radius. Can install fuselage cannon (minor modification of the Jumo 211 should also allow for one). The resulting 'DB Fw-190' should've been every but as good as the early, lighter Fw 190s, bar under 3 km; with MW 50 it will be better. Can use B4 fuel.
 
From another thread:



The BMW VI is a non-starter, being 1015 years behind the curve. The Jumo 222 never powered an in-service aircraft, so it won't cut here. Though, cancelling the 222 before the 1st piece of metal is cast might advance the Jumo 213 time-line considerably.
Jumo 211 is interesting, at least the 211J - the intercooled variant. Available by early 1942. It will cut weight and drag vs. BMW 801, thus negating the power lost with 211 installed by a good deal. Lower weight means better maneuverability, too. It will also consume much less of fuel per air mile travelled, hence the range/radius is much increased. Uses B4 fuel, that is easier to come by. The '211F Fw-190' would've probably been good as the Fiat G.55 in 1943, and, with better Jumo 211 versions available (-N, -P and -R) it would've been a bit better. Just forget the fuselage MGs....

There is also the DB 601/605 series of engines, that again benefit with streamlining, weight and consumption/range/radius. Can install fuselage cannon (minor modification of the Jumo 211 should also allow for one). The resulting 'DB Fw-190' should've been every but as good as the early, lighter Fw 190s, bar under 3 km; with MW 50 it will be better. Can use B4 fuel.

So with the Jumo 211J, you are saying that the 'FW-190 DB' would have been better than the currently used FW-190 A-3? If yes, would it be used en-masse on any front or would this take too long and could it affect the war? And if no, would this new FW variant inspire german engineers to become more creative with the Bf-109, Ju-87 or any other aircraft used at the time?
 
So with the Jumo 211J, you are saying that the 'FW-190 DB' would have been better than the currently used FW-190 A-3? If yes, would it be used en-masse on any front or would this take too long and could it affect the war? And if no, would this new FW variant inspire german engineers to become more creative with the Bf-109, Ju-87 or any other aircraft used at the time?

Techincally, the DB-engined Fw 190 might be called the 'Fw 109 DB'; the Jumo 211 = 'Fw 190 211' ;)
Would it will be better than the 190A-3? With DB 605 and Jumo 211R, it probably would a bit above 6 km, due to lower drag & weight, plus the ram ir intake is far better executed. With DB-601E and Jumo 211J, it would be probably a bit 'weaker', but not substantially so. The main benefit would've been in terms of range/radius, that would've been useful in East and Mediterranean.
The 190 vs. Bf 109 have had several advantages - much better rate of roll, capacity to have greater firepower instaled whether with or without sticking the guns externally, greater internal fuel capacity, far better & stronger undercarriage, along with better pilot's work place.
The Ju-87 might've got the BMW 801 if we make a major engine shuffle happening, like the Bf 110 getting the Jumo 211, so there is enough of DB engines for the Fw 190. In the mean time, kill the Bf 210/410 programe, so there is even more of V12 engines for the Fw 190.
 
Techincally, the DB-engined Fw 190 might be called the 'Fw 109 DB'; the Jumo 211 = 'Fw 190 211' ;)
Would it will be better than the 190A-3? With DB 605 and Jumo 211R, it probably would a bit above 6 km, due to lower drag & weight, plus the ram ir intake is far better executed. With DB-601E and Jumo 211J, it would be probably a bit 'weaker', but not substantially so. The main benefit would've been in terms of range/radius, that would've been useful in East and Mediterranean.
The 190 vs. Bf 109 have had several advantages - much better rate of roll, capacity to have greater firepower instaled whether with or without sticking the guns externally, greater internal fuel capacity, far better & stronger undercarriage, along with better pilot's work place.
The Ju-87 might've got the BMW 801 if we make a major engine shuffle happening, like the Bf 110 getting the Jumo 211, so there is enough of DB engines for the Fw 190. In the mean time, kill the Bf 210/410 programe, so there is even more of V12 engines for the Fw 190.

Alright with the Germans simply going '**** it' we can assume that with suddenly every german aircraft getting sudden improvements, the german Luftwaffe suddenly has a very different performance compared to what the allies were used to for the past three years. Would most of these changes actually benefit the following planes that you listed? Also, Would there really be enough Jumo 211 engines for both the FW-190 and Bf-110?
And why should there be more V12 engines for FW through scrapping the Bf 210/410 programme? I thought that the current 'FW-190 DB/211' did not need the V12 engines... What is this FW variant that you speak of??
 
Alright with the Germans simply going '**** it' we can assume that with suddenly every german aircraft getting sudden improvements, the german Luftwaffe suddenly has a very different performance compared to what the allies were used to for the past three years.

There won't be much of change in performance, apart from range/radius. Meaning that LW aerial conwoys can be escorted, thus no easy kills vs. slow transports as it was the case historically. Also the bomb raids on the Eastern front can be escorted several hundred miles away from the bases = problems for the Soviet AF and factories/oilfieds within reach. This is for 1942-mid 1943; the Fw 190 will need DB 603 or Jumo 213 to retain being competitive from there on.

Would most of these changes actually benefit the following planes that you listed? Also, Would there really be enough Jumo 211 engines for both the FW-190 and Bf-110?
And why should there be more V12 engines for FW through scrapping the Bf 210/410 programme? I thought that the current 'FW-190 DB/211' did not need the V12 engines... What is this FW variant that you speak of??

The Jumo 211/213 and DB 601/605/603 were V12 engines.
Each Bf 210 and 410 uses two, hence cancelling the Bf 210/410 programe frees up 1400+ pieces of DB 601/605 engines, and 2400 of DB 603 engines - a total of 3800 engines.
The DB-601-, 605- or Jumo 211-engined Fw 190 is just a fruit of people's imaginations (and I like that fruit); the Fw 190C was to use DB 603 engine.

The Ju-87 might benefit in being more resistant to the small arms fire, while probably being with a bit better payload, rate of climb and short-strip take off and landing.
For the Bf 110/Jumo 211 combo I don't know, probably no improvement, bar freeing up the DB engines for the Fw 190 in order to LW have a real long range fighter that can actually perform.
 
There won't be much of change in performance, apart from range/radius. Meaning that LW aerial conwoys can be escorted, thus no easy kills vs. slow transports as it was the case historically. Also the bomb raids on the Eastern front can be escorted several hundred miles away from the bases = problems for the Soviet AF and factories/oilfieds within reach. This is for 1942-mid 1943; the Fw 190 will need DB 603 or Jumo 213 to retain being competitive from there on.



The Jumo 211/213 and DB 601/605/603 were V12 engines.
Each Bf 210 and 410 uses two, hence cancelling the Bf 210/410 programe frees up 1400+ pieces of DB 601/605 engines, and 2400 of DB 603 engines - a total of 3800 engines.
The DB-601-, 605- or Jumo 211-engined Fw 190 is just a fruit of people's imaginations (and I like that fruit); the Fw 190C was to use DB 603 engine.

The Ju-87 might benefit in being more resistant to the small arms fire, while probably being with a bit better payload, rate of climb and short-strip take off and landing.
For the Bf 110/Jumo 211 combo I don't know, probably no improvement, bar freeing up the DB engines for the Fw 190 in order to LW have a real long range fighter that can actually perform.

Now with these early improvements available for the LW by 1942, would the LW resort to Jet engines in 1944 or would it appear rediculous to them? Could they just decide to stick with propeller-driven aircraft?
 
Now with these early improvements available for the LW by 1942, would the LW resort to Jet engines in 1944 or would it appear rediculous to them? Could they just decide to stick with propeller-driven aircraft?

Once the UK, USSR and USA are with full strength against LW, the jig is up. Jet engines can offer a meanigful increase of performance, while piston engines cannot - whether Fw 190 makes 400, or 410, or 420 mph is irelevant once the Allies can field numerous 400++ mph fighters of their own.
 
Once the UK, USSR and USA are with full strength against LW, the jig is up. Jet engines can offer a meanigful increase of performance, while piston engines cannot - whether Fw 190 makes 400, or 410, or 420 mph is irelevant once the Allies can field numerous 400++ mph fighters of their own.

Soooo... Jet Fighters are still on the table.
Could it be possible though for LW to try and combine a Jet Engine with a FW-190, since they had a good experience the last Time they did that with bomber piston engines? And would they put this Technology on the Production line earlier? (As I was told Germany had Working Jets in 1943, but did not use them.)
 
Tomo, many thanks for your most pertinent comments.

From the idea i mentiond i guess the only one with merit is a larger 27 or even 30 litre Jumo-210 of 850-1000HP, in OTL the DB-600 was the engine of choice for bombers and fighters alike but there weren't nowhere near DB-600s enough to go around, hence the Do-17 being forced to use Bramo-323s and the Ju-87A, Me-109B/C/D and 110B the puny 20 litre Jumo-210. But in this TL the larger Jumo-210 is fully equal to DB-600 in power complementing it just like the Jumo-211 and DB-601 were doing in OTL.

For the other ones, guess is better to leave well enough alone, just have BMW and Bramo merge earlier so the BMW-801 is ready in 1940, the DB-603 and Jumo-213 are not sidelined so they are ready in 1941 and 1942 respectively, and then on to Jumo-222 and BMW-802 complementing eachother on the Ju-288, He-219 and other midwar designs.

On another note, one more idea that crossed my mind, how about a Me-210/410 with no defensive armament at all, like Mosquito? Or at most, just one MG131 in the rear cockpit, dispensing with the undoubtedly heavy remote controlled swivelling defensive barbettes thingie. How much weight would that save, at least half a ton? Presumably the Me-410 could then be good for some 650kph (without MW boost or C3 fuel)?
 
Tomo, many thanks for your most pertinent comments.

Don't mention it, I love talking hardware.

From the idea i mentiond i guess the only one with merit is a larger 27 or even 30 litre Jumo-210 of 850-1000HP, in OTL the DB-600 was the engine of choice for bombers and fighters alike but there weren't nowhere near DB-600s enough to go around, hence the Do-17 being forced to use Bramo-323s and the Ju-87A, Me-109B/C/D and 110B the puny 20 litre Jumo-210. But in this TL the larger Jumo-210 is fully equal to DB-600 in power complementing it just like the Jumo-211 and DB-601 were doing in OTL.

The Jumo 210 was so late that many German aircraft prototypes were powered by RR Kestrel for the 1st flight and initial testing. Perhaps Jumo cancels the diesels so the 211 is earlier available, it was initially a 1000 HP engine itself?

For the other ones, guess is better to leave well enough alone, just have BMW and Bramo merge earlier so the BMW-801 is ready in 1940, the DB-603 and Jumo-213 are not sidelined so they are ready in 1941 and 1942 respectively, and then on to Jumo-222 and BMW-802 complementing eachother on the Ju-288, He-219 and other midwar designs.

Cencelling or forgetting the Jumo 222 might sped up the 213 (provided the RLM actually orders it); not cancelling the DB 603 in the late 1930s is bound to speed up it's development.
Bigger engines are all fine and well, but my feling is that we, in these what-if discussions about ww2 aircraft, focus too much on power-part of the engines, and not engough on supercharger-part of them.

On another note, one more idea that crossed my mind, how about a Me-210/410 with no defensive armament at all, like Mosquito? Or at most, just one MG131 in the rear cockpit, dispensing with the undoubtedly heavy remote controlled swivelling defensive barbettes thingie. How much weight would that save, at least half a ton? Presumably the Me-410 could then be good for some 650kph (without MW boost or C3 fuel)?

Me 410 has several problems. One is the wing - 18% thickness to chord ratio is not a warant of good turn of speed, especially for a twin engined aircraft. The layout of the cooling system was perhaps modern in 1939-40, but not in 1943-45. Uses two engines, and let's say it can do 650 km/h after the barbettes are deleted, and other minor streamlining job. Just one DB 603A on the Fw 190 makes it go 680-690 - can hold it's own vs. P-47, P-51, and Spitfire XIV and Tempest closer to the UK, while the Me 410 cannot, even is it can do 650 km/h.

The Me 210/410 would've probably been survivable bombers vs. the Soviets. I'd certainly recomend the MW 50 system, even in this case. Bombload is not that great, though.
 
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