'Luft 46'

Don Quijote

Banned
I've read a bit about the almost-there Nazi aircraft projects, and there seem to be countless model kits of the Me 509, Ta 183 and so on (Luft 46 and Modeling Madness are good websites). How close were those that didn't actually fly, but made it to the mock-up stage, to entering even limited service such as operational testing? Just the idea of some of these fighting the Allied Air Forces over Germany in April 1945 is scary.
A few examples of those that just made it:

-Heinkel 162 Salamder: Limited service with JG1, one claimed victory (disputed).

-Dornier 335 Pfeil: Test flown, but did not see combat.

-Horten/Gotha 229: Test flown, but did not see combat.

And those that didn't:

-Ta 183: Jet fighter.

-Lippisch P.13a: Coal powered:eek: ramjet

-Focke-Wulf Triebflugel: Three wings with a jet engine on the end of each.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Luft 46 is, to be brutal, utter crap. Worse, the vast majority were vapor-ware.

The aircraft that were built were intetesting, even 1st of their kind, but all had enormous issues (the Swallow's engines just being the start). The Horton designs were quite literally death traps. Flying wings are impossible without "fly-by-wire" technology. The aircraft goes into a spin and it become divergent along all three axes, even a simple flat spin is lethal. Other seemingly excellent designs, the Ta-183 being the best example, were completely unstable.

The Soviet MiG-15, which bears a strong resemblance to the Ta-183 required a series of vertical wing fences, along with a host of other modifications to make it even marginally stable (Soviet pilots were instructed to give the aircraft three rotations worth of effort at recovery, fourth revolution the instruction was to eject since the aircraft was lost).

When your back is against the wall you will grab at any straw. Doesn't mean it will save you.
 
Yes but how many would actually work ? (even if you had materials and production to make them)

Lots of them look very doggy without computer controls !

Anyway why not look at what USA/GB had in prototype ? USAF 46 will be hitting you with B36 carrying MK4s to start with.....
 
I've read a bit about the almost-there Nazi aircraft projects, and there seem to be countless model kits of the Me 509, Ta 183 and so on (Luft 46 and Modeling Madness are good websites).

Each to their own, but as a modeller I hate Luft '46. It elevates some of these projects to a status they never merited, and some of it's more extreme fans seem sorry the war ended when it did, before their favourite designs could see service.
 
The world didn't end in 1946, and German engineers and designers moved on to various places. Kurt Tank spawned the Pulqui II and Willi Messerschmitt went on to the Saetta and Helwan project. Lippisch and others became a significant part of projects that eventually gelled into advances. None of these advances were just around the corner, in the context of a dying Nazi Germany. Just flashy art, on napkins.
 

Don Quijote

Banned
I 'm not claiming that they were all superplanes which could have turned the tide of the war. I just want to discuss some of the plausible ones, and maybe mention the weird designs along the way. The Do 335, for example, was a reasonably 'normal' aircraft, but with the interesting and possibly underused pusher-puller configuration. It was fast, well armed, and quite manoeuverable.
 
I 'm not claiming that they were all superplanes which could have turned the tide of the war. I just want to discuss some of the plausible ones, and maybe mention the weird designs along the way. The Do 335, for example, was a reasonably 'normal' aircraft, but with the interesting and possibly underused pusher-puller configuration. It was fast, well armed, and quite manoeuverable.

the Do335 seemed reasonably practical, and the other late war prop fighter, the Ta152 was an excellent aircraft equal to the British Fury and the improved Mustangs, Corsairs and the USN Bearcat. The Ta183 looks reasonably doable, as it is basically the intermediate step between the Me262 and the Mig 15. But some of the others look like outstanding ways to kill test pilots, and since the B2 only flies because of the fly by wire and computers it has, while the B47 Flying Wing had all kinds of problems (without that tech) I suspect the German batwings were prettier on paper than in reality.
 
I 'm not claiming that they were all superplanes which could have turned the tide of the war. I just want to discuss some of the plausible ones, and maybe mention the weird designs along the way. The Do 335, for example, was a reasonably 'normal' aircraft, but with the interesting and possibly underused pusher-puller configuration. It was fast, well armed, and quite manoeuverable.

The Do-335 was the only one that would have been reasonably efficient, but why use two aircraft engine in one large plane, when you could have two engine in two planes and be more efficient ?

The He-162 was an unstable deathtrap that only very experienced pilot could fly without killing themselves.

The TA-183 was worse, and in 3 years in Argentina, Tank couldn't solve it's stability problems.

I won't spoke of the flying wings, other did it for me already.

As for the Lippish, well, no one else after the war used their propulsion system proposal. I'm pretty sure i know why.
 
For the Lippish, it's finding someone small enough and strong enough to keep up with stoking the coal into the engine.:D
 
the Do335 seemed reasonably practical, and the other late war prop fighter, the Ta152 was an excellent aircraft equal to the British Fury and the improved Mustangs, Corsairs and the USN Bearcat. The Ta183 looks reasonably doable, as it is basically the intermediate step between the Me262 and the Mig 15. But some of the others look like outstanding ways to kill test pilots, and since the B2 only flies because of the fly by wire and computers it has, while the B47 Flying Wing had all kinds of problems (without that tech) I suspect the German batwings were prettier on paper than in reality.

My only problem with the TA-152 is aesthetic - it doesn't look like a fighter with those long thin wings. It did feature in an awesome Michael Turner painting of Pierre Clostermann's Tempest though (rendered annoyingly small here):
http://www.studio88.co.uk/acatalog/small_gic_m218_tempest.jpg

The batwings have been a goldmine for those who got ratings out of claiming they were some kind of war winning stealth Nazi superjet that inspired the B-2 (yes Nat Geo channel, I am looking at you).
 
The Do-335 was the only one that would have been reasonably efficient, but why use two aircraft engine in one large plane, when you could have two engine in two planes and be more efficient ?

The He-162 was an unstable deathtrap that only very experienced pilot could fly without killing themselves.

The TA-183 was worse, and in 3 years in Argentina, Tank couldn't solve it's stability problems.

I won't spoke of the flying wings, other did it for me already.

As for the Lippish, well, no one else after the war used their propulsion system proposal. I'm pretty sure i know why.

yes your are right, Imladrik
But the Reichluftfahrtministerium (RLM) wanted Multi combat aircraft at end of War,
The Do-335 was that what they wanted, except Göring who screamed "THIS IS NOT A AIRCRAFT" as he saw the Do-335

next to that had Göring issued the 1000X1000X1000 Order, for a aircraft hat fly a 1000 kg bomb 1000 km far at 1000 km/h
Dornier came with realistic Do-335, while winner were Horten brothers with Horten/Gotha 229
According to the Pilots the Go-229 was quite good to fly for experienced pilots, the deadly crash of first prototype was do malfunction of one Jumo-004B2 Jet-engines.
the Jet Engines in time were made from cheap material do lack of alloy, titan and high temperature Steel needed for Tanks

Oh another problem for Aircraft manufactures in the Third Reich, lack of Material like Aluminum, alloy
do end of War RLM, SS and Wehrmacht were fighting about last remaining reserve on Material and Fuel.
Heinkel and Gotha went another way start to build there He-162 and Go 229 mostly out of Wood.
but in march 1945 the production infrastructure of the Third Reich collapsed
Most projects were stop do lack of material and parts, Like V1, V2 and the He-162 production

about last one
it' was very tricky to fly aircraft that not forgive pilot errors, do to lack of pilots the SS and RLM put Hitler Youth in He-162 !
that aircraft killed more people do pilot error as under combat, if they could fly,
March-April most of Luftwaffe hardware was grounded do lack of experienced Pilots and fuels, sitting ducks for Allies aircrafts attacks.
While the very last Luftwaffe large scale operation were FIVE combat aircraft, against 1500 B-17 bombers and there Support fighters...
 
... and some of it's more extreme fans seem sorry the war ended when it did, before their favourite designs could see service.
All the while seemingly overlooking the fact that if the Luftwaffe were able to, somehow, get an extra year then so do the Royal Air Force and US Army Air Forces with the aircraft they were working on.
 
All the while seemingly overlooking the fact that if the Luftwaffe were able to, somehow, get an extra year then so do the Royal Air Force and US Army Air Forces with the aircraft they were working on.
Here's the thing: the RAF and USAAF actually continued with their 'Luft 46' projects. Most of them were abandoned as infeasible, a lot of those that were built didn't actually work. The aircraft that entered service in 1947 and 1948 were the Allied '1946' aircraft that worked.

The Luftwaffe wasn't going to do much better than the RAF and USAAF at developing advanced aircraft, and probably much worse - they'd have been flying Bf-109 and Fw-190s against Vampires, F-86s and F-84s.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
Luft 46 is, to be brutal, utter crap. Worse, the vast majority were vapor-ware.

The Horton designs were quite literally death traps. Flying wings are impossible without "fly-by-wire" technology. The aircraft goes into a spin and it become divergent along all three axes, even a simple flat spin is lethal.
Don't know where you got this wisdom from ...

That a well known US american airplane pioneer and producer I respct highly wasn't able to get his designs working, doesn't mean that other couldn't. The Horten gliders were at their time the pinnacle of motorless flying.
It's motorized versions were as solid as every plane the no worse account of crashes than any other plane (ok, the first version with its too advanced for it time system of turnable wingtips was unstable, but with the "normal" Horten-type airlons arrangements on a fixed wing the were used as trainers ...).
If you refer to the crash of the Go 229 ... I would recommend you reading :
"Horten Ho 229
Spirit of thuringia" by Andrei Shepelev and Huib Ottens, 1st published 2006, ISBN (10) 1 903223 66 0, ISBN (!§) 978 1 903223 66 B
There you will find a proper account of what happend : an engine failure and due to it an hydraulic error causing an untimey deploying of the landing gear. The flying itself was regarded as FUN by the pilots.

True, "Nurflügel"-planes aren't easy to plan build - only that there are dozens of build-your-own-plane kits available worldwide without fly-by wire.


And for the He 162 (sometime called "Salamander", sometimes "Spatz") : There's a good book about it with a lot of post-war allied pilot reports flying her. In short : if you are a soft and carefull with the gas ... TOP PLANE.
However, with perhapd double the time of its development (what would have been still less than a year from first drawing to powered flight:eek:) these first illnesses would most likely been erased.
 
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The reason you cant get a pure flying wing design to work without fly-by-wire is the things are unstable in all axes. This is actually a benefit for a fighter that can control it, as it makes it a very agile machine.

Now this doesn't actually mean they are unflyable, an excellent pilot can get one up and down safely. But as soon as you try a combat manoeuvre...
 
The reason you cant get a pure flying wing design to work without fly-by-wire is the things are unstable in all axes. This is actually a benefit for a fighter that can control it, as it makes it a very agile machine.

Now this doesn't actually mean they are unflyable, an excellent pilot can get one up and down safely. But as soon as you try a combat manoeuvre...

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I disagree. Flying wings can be both stable and controllable without computers. Look at all the tail-less gliders built by Fauvel, Backstrom, Marske, gotten Brothers, etc. ideally you start with a reflexes airfoil section that is stable in pitch, no matter what the angle of attack. Hint these re telexed airflow sections are widely used on helicopter rotors.
The sweep back the wing to improve directional stability. Swept wing tips also help increase the moment arms for control surfaces mounted on trailing edges. Highly-swept wings with outboard-mounted elevons have the greatest pitch stability.
With extreme wing-sweep, you can even mount landing flaps in the center-section ala Swift ultra-light glider.

Century-series military jets also flew well electronic stabilization was perfected( Convair Delta Dart and Delta Dagger, Dassault Mirage, SAAB Draken, British V Bombers, etc.

For more detail to visit the T.W.I.T.T. (The wing is the thing website).
 
I think the biggest problem with luft46 is a lack of engine power , iirc the hes011 hybrid compessor engine being about the only upcoming jet and seemingly the answer to all prayers.However even it Didn't have the power of the derwent 5 let alone the nene.

The luft46 would simply be outfought in the vertical plane by allied fighters with much more engine power .
 
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I disagree. Flying wings can be both stable and controllable without computers. Look at all the tail-less gliders built by Fauvel, Backstrom, Marske, gotten Brothers, etc. ideally you start with a reflexes airfoil section that is stable in pitch, no matter what the angle of attack. Hint these re telexed airflow sections are widely used on helicopter rotors.
The sweep back the wing to improve directional stability. Swept wing tips also help increase the moment arms for control surfaces mounted on trailing edges. Highly-swept wings with outboard-mounted elevons have the greatest pitch stability.
With extreme wing-sweep, you can even mount landing flaps in the center-section ala Swift ultra-light glider.

Century-series military jets also flew well electronic stabilization was perfected( Convair Delta Dart and Delta Dagger, Dassault Mirage, SAAB Draken, British V Bombers, etc.

For more detail to visit the T.W.I.T.T. (The wing is the thing website).

All the planes you reference are NOT flying wings. They have tailplanes. So they don't crash...
 
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