Lucrezia Borgia marries an English Prince?

[Tyler96]

Oh definitely, the main concern I have with him, is how does he get out and get to France/Italy? Does he do it through aid from former associates of his uncle, who despise Tudor? If so, what stops him being used as a French puppet? The power of Rome?

Much would depend on where Warwick is when Bosworth occurs. I have some vague recollection that he may have been set up in one of Richard's northern castles (Sheriff Hutton?) but if he's in London he probably needs to get out of there ASAP, before Henry arrives.

As to how- you either need his guardian (whoever that may be) to be dedicated enough to spirit him out of the country (and that will take some loyalty- you don't want to piss off a newly victorious King Henry for nothing) or have him located somewhere such that one of Richard's loyalists (Lincoln, Lovell, Stafford brothers) can collect him and take him away. But Lovell and the Staffords were in sanctuary in the immediate aftermath of Bosworth and I imagine Henry will be keeping a close eye on Lincoln, so...

From thence, I imagine the first port of call will be Burgundy and Aunt Margaret (who kinda sorta supported Warwick's claim to the throne IOTL with her support of Simnel)- they wouldn't go to France, as France has just supported Tudor (though the vicissitudes of diplomacy mean he could end up in France later).

Then the trouble is stopping him from getting dragged back to England to act as the figurehead in some rebellion against Henry VII and getting captured (as happened to fake!Edward/Simnel IOTL), having him survive long enough to get married, and then conjuring up a diplomatic situation where a match with Lucrezia becomes possible.

 

[VVD0D95]

Much would depend on where Warwick is when Bosworth occurs. I have some vague recollection that he may have been set up in one of Richard's northern castles (Sheriff Hutton?) but if he's in London he probably needs to get out of there ASAP, before Henry arrives.

As to how- you either need his guardian (whoever that may be) to be dedicated enough to spirit him out of the country (and that will take some loyalty- you don't want to piss off a newly victorious King Henry for nothing) or have him located somewhere such that one of Richard's loyalists (Lincoln, Lovell, Stafford brothers) can collect him and take him away. But Lovell and the Staffords were in sanctuary in the immediate aftermath of Bosworth and I imagine Henry will be keeping a close eye on Lincoln, so...

From thence, I imagine the first port of call will be Burgundy and Aunt Margaret (who kinda sorta supported Warwick's claim to the throne IOTL with her support of Simnel)- they wouldn't go to France, as France has just supported Tudor (though the vicissitudes of diplomacy mean he could end up in France later).

Then the trouble is stopping him from getting dragged back to England to act as the figurehead in some rebellion against Henry VII and getting captured (as happened to fake!Edward/Simnel IOTL), having him survive long enough to get married, and then conjuring up a diplomatic situation where a match with Lucrezia becomes possible.

Hmm this is true, I wonder, would it make sense to have another small change be one of Richard's followers who otl fought at Bosworth is left behind to help protect Warwick, and then when news comes of Richard's death, said follower sneaks out of England to Burgundy. From there, I'd imagine Warwick might well remain in Burgundy until he's old enough to fight himself, which could well not be until the 1490s, at which point he could perhaps be floating around Italy, and perhaps be hanging around Rome, trying to petition the Pope, when Henry VII does something to piss off Alexander?

 

[Tyler96]

Hmm this is true, I wonder, would it make sense to have another small change be one of Richard's followers who otl fought at Bosworth is left behind to help protect Warwick, and then when news comes of Richard's death, said follower sneaks out of England to Burgundy. From there, I'd imagine Warwick might well remain in Burgundy until he's old enough to fight himself, which could well not be until the 1490s, at which point he could perhaps be floating around Italy, and perhaps be hanging around Rome, trying to petition the Pope, when Henry VII does something to piss off Alexander?

Among Richard's followers who died at Bosworth there's Ratcliffe, Catesby and Brackenbury (who supposedly refused to kill the Princes IOTL). I'm not sure Richard would be too inclined to leave behind one of his major supporters, but there's probably someone less significant who could have been left behind.

Eh- Lovell, Lincoln, the Staffords etc. will want to revolt before Henry's regime is too established, and will want to use Edward as a figurehead, so if one of them is with Edward in exile they may try to take him back to England.

But in 5-10 years Henry could exert diplomatic pressure on Burgundy to stop supporting him (he did this with regards to Warbeck IOTL), of course whether Marg would listen...

If Margaret endeavours to get Edward sponsored by the Imperials (as happened with Warbeck) that could provide a link to Italy, though I have no idea how politics and diplomacy looked there in the early years of the Italian Wars.

But, if Edward gets passed around Europe as a diplomatic bargaining chip (again, like Warbeck) he could end up in Italy in some manner.

 

[VVD0D95]

Among Richard's followers who died at Bosworth there's Ratcliffe, Catesby and Brackenbury (who supposedly refused to kill the Princes IOTL). I'm not sure Richard would be too inclined to leave behind one of his major supporters, but there's probably someone less significant who could have been left behind.

Eh- Lovell, Lincoln, the Staffords etc. will want to revolt before Henry's regime is too established, and will want to use Edward as a figurehead, so if one of them is with Edward in exile they may try to take him back to England.

But in 5-10 years Henry could exert diplomatic pressure on Burgundy to stop supporting him (he did this with regards to Warbeck IOTL), of course whether Marg would listen...

If Margaret endeavours to get Edward sponsored by the Imperials (as happened with Warbeck) that could provide a link to Italy, though I have no idea how politics and diplomacy looked there in the early years of the Italian Wars.

But, if Edward gets passed around Europe as a diplomatic bargaining chip (again, like Warbeck) he could end up in Italy in some manner.

This is very true. I guess, he'd need a lot of luck to survive for that long to end up in Italy. As, if he does succeed to the throne in the late 1480s/ early 1490s I imagine he'd probably not want to marry Lucrezia, even if she is the daughter of the then Pope.

Another query I have relevant to this is, if Edward does end up on the throne, what would he do with Eliazabeth of York and her kids?

 

[Tyler96]

This is very true. I guess, he'd need a lot of luck to survive for that long to end up in Italy. As, if he does succeed to the throne in the late 1480s/ early 1490s I imagine he'd probably not want to marry Lucrezia, even if she is the daughter of the then Pope.

Another query I have relevant to this is, if Edward does end up on the throne, what would he do with Eliazabeth of York and her kids?

Yeah, I mean, if he comes to the throne at that stage he might want to go for a domestic match to shore up support (could he marry one of Edward IV's younger daughters?), or a royal marriage with a major power closer to home.

As for Henry's kids- they might face the same experience suffered by Warwick IOTL (long imprisonment followed by execution on trumped up charges); they might get whisked off to the continent and come back in 20 years to depose Warwick (the cycle continues...); if you want to be nice you can say that his own traumatic childhood and the experiences of his uncle Richard (i.e. killing kids is bad PR), Warwick might be inclined to treat them ''leniently'' (whatever that means, and doing so could very well backfire later on). Henry's daughters can obviously be married off to someone loyal (as Henry did with his sisters-in-law IOTL) but Arthur and Henry jnr (if born) present something of a conundrum.

Much would also depend on if Henry is dead or in exile.

 

[VVD0D95]

Yeah, I mean, if he comes to the throne at that stage he might want to go for a domestic match to shore up support (could he marry one of Edward IV's younger daughters?), or a royal marriage with a major power closer to home.

As for Henry's kids- they might face the same experience suffered by Warwick IOTL (long imprisonment followed by execution on trumped up charges); they might get whisked off to the continent and come back in 20 years to depose Warwick (the cycle continues...); if you want to be nice you can say that his own traumatic childhood and the experiences of his uncle Richard (i.e. killing kids is bad PR), Warwick might be inclined to treat them ''leniently'' (whatever that means, and doing so could very well backfire later on). Henry's daughters can obviously be married off to someone loyal (as Henry did with his sisters-in-law IOTL) but Arthur and Henry jnr (if born) present something of a conundrum.

Much would also depend on if Henry is dead or in exile.

If he married his cousin Anne of York that could be good, as she and him are the same age being born in 1475.

In regards to when he might be able to make a return, would a revolt in the 1480s, or early 1490s, be better, as then he could actually play a role in the fight.

As for the Tudors, I have a feeling Henry might try sneaking out, to try again, Arthur could well be left stranded with Elizabeth and his sister and brother, if they are alive then.

 

[VVD0D95]

To tie up loose ends, could Edward marry his eldest born son to say Margaret Tudor, in a similar way that Henry VII maried Elizabeth of York?

 

[Tyler96]

If he married his cousin Anne of York that could be good, as she and him are the same age being born in 1475.

In regards to when he might be able to make a return, would a revolt in the 1480s, or early 1490s, be better, as then he could actually play a role in the fight.

As for the Tudors, I have a feeling Henry might try sneaking out, to try again, Arthur could well be left stranded with Elizabeth and his sister and brother, if they are alive then.

By the early 1490s its possible a lot of his potential supporters in England have either done something stupid and gotten themselves killed, or have accommodated themselves to the Tudor regime, making it harder for Edward to successfully regain the throne.

To tie up loose ends, could Edward marry his eldest born son to say Margaret Tudor, in a similar way that Henry VII maried Elizabeth of York?

Eh, there's the whole ''marrying Henry's daughter is a tacit admission of Henry's legitimacy''- just like how Richard III couldn't marry his niece Elizabeth to bolster his own legitimacy without admitting that his claim to the throne was bogus (because using Elizabeth to improve his legitimacy proves she was legitimate, and therefor her brothers were legitimate, and therefor Richard was a usurper; which is why I'm kinda sceptical this scheme ever existed).

And of course, marrying Margaret Tudor doesn't mean anything if Arthur/Henry is still alive to maintain the Tudor claim to the throne.

 

[VVD0D95]

By the early 1490s its possible a lot of his potential supporters in England have either done something stupid and gotten themselves killed, or have accommodated themselves to the Tudor regime, making it harder for Edward to successfully regain the throne.



Eh, there's the whole ''marrying Henry's daughter is a tacit admission of Henry's legitimacy''- just like how Richard III couldn't marry his niece Elizabeth to bolster his own legitimacy without admitting that his claim to the throne was bogus (because using Elizabeth to improve his legitimacy proves she was legitimate, and therefor her brothers were legitimate, and therefor Richard was a usurper; which is why I'm kinda sceptical this scheme ever existed).

And of course, marrying Margaret Tudor doesn't mean anything if Arthur/Henry is still alive to maintain the Tudor claim to the throne.

This is very true. Hmm, so would the Stoke uprising of 1487, be the best chance that they'd have of placing Edward onto the throne then?

 

[Tyler96]

This is very true. Hmm, so would the Stoke uprising of 1487, be the best chance that they'd have of placing Edward onto the throne then?

Yeah, I think we've talked before about a more consolidated Stoke Rebellion- the Staffords not rebelling so early and getting themselves killed; trying to get Thomas Howard onside (he was offered a chance to participate IOTL but refused- if he's convinced Henry will attaint him and he's got nothing to lose...); maybe killing off the relatively apolitical John Duke of Suffolk so that Lincoln has access to the wider de la Pole affinity; maybe picking up more support in Ireland; doing something with the Scropes (who supported Simnel but didn't fight at Stoke)

But getting all these gears into to motion at the same time with any degree of coordination or cooperation is very difficult (especially given the Howard and de la Pole heartland is on the wrong side of the country for someone invading from Ireland).

The fact that ITTL the pretender is undoubtedly genuine might also (marginally?) bolster his chances.

Of course, you could just have the rebels ''get lucky'' and somehow kill Henry, but that's rather handwave-ish.

Side note: Last post for tonight, it's midnight here and I have uni tomorrow.

 

[VVD0D95]

Yeah, I think we've talked before about a more consolidated Stoke Rebellion- the Staffords not rebelling so early and getting themselves killed; trying to get Thomas Howard onside (he was offered a chance to participate IOTL but refused- if he's convinced Henry will attaint him and he's got nothing to lose...); maybe killing off the relatively apolitical John Duke of Suffolk so that Lincoln has access to the wider de la Pole affinity; maybe picking up more support in Ireland; doing something with the Scropes (who supported Simnel but didn't fight at Stoke)

But getting all these gears into to motion at the same time with any degree of coordination or cooperation is very difficult (especially given the Howard and de la Pole heartland is on the wrong side of the country for someone invading from Ireland).

The fact that ITTL the pretender is undoubtedly genuine might also (marginally?) bolster his chances.

Of course, you could just have the rebels ''get lucky'' and somehow kill Henry, but that's rather handwave-ish.

Side note: Last post for tonight, it's midnight here and I have uni tomorrow.

This is very true. Perhaps some early success combined with Howard being offered everything back that Henry took. That could get the gears turning.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Please forgive my tardiness:

The problem with marrying Lucrezia to an English prince is one of contemporeity. Until Rodrigo Borgia is elected pope, the lady is no one especially important, just an illegitimate daughter of a Spanish cardinal who also happens to be the Vice-Chancellor of the Church. By the time THAT happens - although the series, Borgia, makes offers for her hand from Henry VII for the duke of York (Henry VIII) and a fictional archduke of Austria - Edward of Middleham is dead and the earl of Warwick is imprisoned. Henry VII wouldn't let Warwick marry outside of England (if at all).

Even with butterflies from an alt-Bosworth, Richard III wouldn't throw aside a match with the eldest daughter of the Catholic monarchs for his son, so he can marry a cardinal's bastard. If Warwick somehow ends up as king, he's too important for Lucrezia. And if he/Middleham is in exile, Alexander might see them as being not important enough - especially in comparison to his OTL sons-in-law who were chosen more for their usefulness to his policy of the day. Besides, can you just imagine the scandal it would cause if the king of England (whether de jure/de facto) ended up like Giovanni Sforza (divorced on grounds of impotency) or Alfonso, duke of Bisceglia (murdered by Cesare).

As much as I like the idea, I'm not sure if it could work.

 

[VVD0D95]

Please forgive my tardiness:

The problem with marrying Lucrezia to an English prince is one of contemporeity. Until Rodrigo Borgia is elected pope, the lady is no one especially important, just an illegitimate daughter of a Spanish cardinal who also happens to be the Vice-Chancellor of the Church. By the time THAT happens - although the series, Borgia, makes offers for her hand from Henry VII for the duke of York (Henry VIII) and a fictional archduke of Austria - Edward of Middleham is dead and the earl of Warwick is imprisoned. Henry VII wouldn't let Warwick marry outside of England (if at all).

Even with butterflies from an alt-Bosworth, Richard III wouldn't throw aside a match with the eldest daughter of the Catholic monarchs for his son, so he can marry a cardinal's bastard. If Warwick somehow ends up as king, he's too important for Lucrezia. And if he/Middleham is in exile, Alexander might see them as being not important enough - especially in comparison to his OTL sons-in-law who were chosen more for their usefulness to his policy of the day. Besides, can you just imagine the scandal it would cause if the king of England (whether de jure/de facto) ended up like Giovanni Sforza (divorced on grounds of impotency) or Alfonso, duke of Bisceglia (murdered by Cesare).

As much as I like the idea, I'm not sure if it could work.

This is very true. A shame

 

[desmirelle]

Rodrigo Borgia became Pope on 11 August 1492 and died 18 August 1503, you have to have the POD within this time period.

 

[VVD0D95]

Rodrigo Borgia became Pope on 11 August 1492 and died 18 August 1503, you have to have the POD within this time period.

Indeed you do

 

[desmirelle]

I put the dates in because too often those of us with an interest in a specific era/area forget that others don't know the timeline; I thought showing how narrow the window was might help. Lucrezia was born in April 1480 and OTL died June 1519 (childbirth). She was just marriageable when her father became pope.

 

[VVD0D95]

I put the dates in because too often those of us with an interest in a specific era/area forget that others don't know the timeline; I thought showing how narrow the window was might help. Lucrezia was born in April 1480 and OTL died June 1519 (childbirth). She was just marriageable when her father became pope.

This is true and if she were to marry a Plantagenet prince that would require big butterflies either before her birth or when she's very small