Low German-speaking Netherlands?

Would it have been possible for the Netherlands to remain speaking Low-German or a different dialect of German and if so, how?
One idea I had, the viability of which I am unsure, is mayhaps the language that would later develop into Old dutch being pushed back by old low saxon in the migration period?
 
Would it have been possible for the Netherlands to remain speaking Low-German or a different dialect of German and if so, how?
No, I don't think so. At least not if you mean the actual Netherlands. The reason Dutch is Dutch is because it was the dialect spoken in the most important and rich part of the Netherlands: Holland, or earlier Fladers and Brabant. You need some reason for the Low-German part to dominate the Netherlands, which is basicly impossible with a POD after 1500. Somehow you need to change the late medeval history that lead to the creation of the Netherlands. The problem is that most of the Low-German speaking part of the Netherlands was not in a good position to dominate the Netherlands. Ok, Overijssel might have been more important, but I guess that a Frisian speaking Netherlands (or at least a Netherlands that is dominated by Friesland) is more likely than a Netherlands dominated by the north east of the Netherlands.
 
No, I don't think so. At least not if you mean the actual Netherlands. The reason Dutch is Dutch is because it was the dialect spoken in the most important and rich part of the Netherlands: Holland, or earlier Fladers and Brabant. You need some reason for the Low-German part to dominate the Netherlands, which is basicly impossible with a POD after 1500. Somehow you need to change the late medeval history that lead to the creation of the Netherlands. The problem is that most of the Low-German speaking part of the Netherlands was not in a good position to dominate the Netherlands. Ok, Overijssel might have been more important, but I guess that a Frisian speaking Netherlands (or at least a Netherlands that is dominated by Friesland) is more likely than a Netherlands dominated by the north east of the Netherlands.

Can't we cheat and just make people never change name of the language? I'm not Dutch, but AFAIK wasn't Dutch called Nederduits before Napoleon (eg. the Reformed Church of South Africa uses the word Nederduits in its name)?
 
Would it have been possible for the Netherlands to remain speaking Low-German or a different dialect of German and if so, how?
One idea I had, the viability of which I am unsure, is mayhaps the language that would later develop into Old dutch being pushed back by old low saxon in the migration period?

northern part still does

300px-Dutch-dialects.svg.png


all the pinkish in the noth-eastern part are lower-saxon dialects (which is a form of lower-german)
 
No, I don't think so. At least not if you mean the actual Netherlands. The reason Dutch is Dutch is because it was the dialect spoken in the most important and rich part of the Netherlands: Holland, or earlier Fladers and Brabant. You need some reason for the Low-German part to dominate the Netherlands, which is basicly impossible with a POD after 1500. Somehow you need to change the late medeval history that lead to the creation of the Netherlands. The problem is that most of the Low-German speaking part of the Netherlands was not in a good position to dominate the Netherlands. Ok, Overijssel might have been more important, but I guess that a Frisian speaking Netherlands (or at least a Netherlands that is dominated by Friesland) is more likely than a Netherlands dominated by the north east of the Netherlands.
I'm not at all opposed to a PoD before 1500.
As you see, my own, possibly senseless idea, was quite a bit before that.
Would you have an idea how it could be done before?

Can't we cheat and just make people never change name of the language? I'm not Dutch, but AFAIK wasn't Dutch called Nederduits before Napoleon (eg. the Reformed Church of South Africa uses the word Nederduits in its name)?
Heh, although I did mean not only in name,
northern part still does

300px-Dutch-dialects.svg.png


all the pinkish in the noth-eastern part are lower-saxon dialects (which is a form of lower-german)
Indeed. But I'd be talking about all or large swathes of the Netherlands, rather than a minor part.
 
I think this is more down to definition than to actual differences. Modern Dutch is still kinda mutually intelligible with dialects of Low German spoken in the western part of that language range. More so, in some respects, than these dialects are with the Low German of the Baltic shore (now extinct). It is hard to see how the urban centres of Holland would adopt the speech patterns of Hamburg and Bremen, but they are close enough for them to be considered part of the same language. If the political fate of the Netherlands had been different, we might today speak about the Low German of Holland along with that of the Wendish quarter and of Westfalia.

In fact, it would very likely become its dominant and possibly only literary dialect in short order, meaning that TL's Low German would sound considerably more Dutch.
 
While I don't see how to do it, it might help if the Hansa had spread further west.

As in, the Hansa basically ended at Overijssel, and as such Holland (& sometimes Flanders) spent time from the 1400's smashing Hamburg/Lübeck/Bremen rather than being their buddies. By that point it was too late, as Holland had become tough enough to compete with the Wendish Hansa, but it was possible to get them earlier.

Of course this leads to a different possible divergence: if the Holland-Hainaut union never happened, Holland will be less focused on Flanders and the south, and more on the east. Might be enough to eventually lead to a stronger Low German influence replacing/building on the Frisian substrate, rather than the historical Low Frankish.

But it remains very hard, because nearby Flanders/Brabant was thriving quite early, and was firmly Frankish.
 
I'm not at all opposed to a PoD before 1500.
As you see, my own, possibly senseless idea, was quite a bit before that.
Would you have an idea how it could be done before?
You can have the areas that is now the Netherlands speak low German, but you can't have the Netherlands speak Low-German. What I mean is that you have to change the history of the area in such a way that you do not have a recognisable Netherlands, even if you have an independent country that consists out of what is now the Netherlands. Everything about it would be different, including its core area. Basicly not Holland (or Flanders or Brabant) but the north east must be its centre.


Also I dispute that a large part of the Netherlands speaks a Low-German dialect. Dialects in the Netherlands, especialy in the North East are dying out rather rapidly. Most people in those areas, especialy the younger people just speak Dutch (although with an accent).
 
I think this is more down to definition than to actual differences. Modern Dutch is still kinda mutually intelligible with dialects of Low German spoken in the western part of that language range. More so, in some respects, than these dialects are with the Low German of the Baltic shore (now extinct). It is hard to see how the urban centres of Holland would adopt the speech patterns of Hamburg and Bremen, but they are close enough for them to be considered part of the same language. If the political fate of the Netherlands had been different, we might today speak about the Low German of Holland along with that of the Wendish quarter and of Westfalia.

In fact, it would very likely become its dominant and possibly only literary dialect in short order, meaning that TL's Low German would sound considerably more Dutch.
So you think that politics are what has us speaking of dutch rather than Low German of Holland, therefore that by changing the politics as appropriate we could have Holland speaking what it speaks today but called 'Low-German of Holland'?


May I ask why it would necessarily become its dominant dialect?
And do you think that would be regardless of other dialects being used in a potential political center?


While I don't see how to do it, it might help if the Hansa had spread further west.

As in, the Hansa basically ended at Overijssel, and as such Holland (& sometimes Flanders) spent time from the 1400's smashing Hamburg/Lübeck/Bremen rather than being their buddies. By that point it was too late, as Holland had become tough enough to compete with the Wendish Hansa, but it was possible to get them earlier.

Of course this leads to a different possible divergence: if the Holland-Hainaut union never happened, Holland will be less focused on Flanders and the south, and more on the east. Might be enough to eventually lead to a stronger Low German influence replacing/building on the Frisian substrate, rather than the historical Low Frankish.

But it remains very hard, because nearby Flanders/Brabant was thriving quite early, and was firmly Frankish.
Hmm.... Interesting.
So you think that Holland and such aligning with the Hansa as late as the 1400s would allow for strong Low German influence rather than Low Frankish?

Could these divergences maybe be combined somehow, the latter moving Holland's focus east instead of south, and Hanseatic influence then holding them back from Flemish-Brabantian influence of Frankish?



You can have the areas that is now the Netherlands speak low German, but you can't have the Netherlands speak Low-German. What I mean is that you have to change the history of the area in such a way that you do not have a recognisable Netherlands, even if you have an independent country that consists out of what is now the Netherlands. Everything about it would be different, including its core area. Basicly not Holland (or Flanders or Brabant) but the north east must be its centre.


Also I dispute that a large part of the Netherlands speaks a Low-German dialect. Dialects in the Netherlands, especialy in the North East are dying out rather rapidly. Most people in those areas, especialy the younger people just speak Dutch (although with an accent).
Oh, that was actually my intention, sorry on being unclear on that.
Not the Netherlands, the state that we know, speaking low-german, but the area that today forms the Netherlands/large parts of it speaking low-german.
 
So you think that politics are what has us speaking of dutch rather than Low German of Holland, therefore that by changing the politics as appropriate we could have Holland speaking what it speaks today but called 'Low-German of Holland'?


May I ask why it would necessarily become its dominant dialect?
And do you think that would be regardless of other dialects being used in a potential political center?

I don't think poklitics would change the nature of the language very much (though depensding on the greater scheme of things, you could see more or less High German, French, Spanish and English loan words and different standardisation). Rather, I think that politics could change the designation of the language. Norwegian is a separate language from danish today because of politics. The Norwegians would probably still speak much as they do if it was thought of as Danish, at least until the impact of universal schooling and cheap press.

The dialects of Low German spoken along the upper Rhine and the North Sea coast were closer to Dutch then they were to the Meißner High German that would displace them. If they were instead in a political system dominated from the Netherlands, there is no reason to think their speakers would adopt High German. Political realities suggest, though, that the cultural ands economic entre of this area would be in Holland. IOTL the Netherlands drew large numbers of workers from these lands well into the 19th century. Dutch fleets and armies were filled with natives of Dithmarschen, the East Frisian Islands, Westfalia and the Elbe estuary. They adapted quickly to Dutch. In a different setting, they could easily make it their status dialect. In this world, Reformed church literature from Leyden instead of Lutheran from Erfurt and Wittenberg, the books of Amserdam printshops instad of the Leipzig and Frankfurt fairs will guide the style of the leading classes. They can continue to consider their language Low German. It is not far from düdesch to duits.
 
Dialects in the Netherlands, especialy in the North East are dying out rather rapidly. Most people in those areas, especialy the younger people just speak Dutch (although with an accent).

don't be so sure about that, i mean i have even encountered some somali refugees that managed to pick up quite a bit of Gronings
 
Hmm.... Interesting.
So you think that Holland and such aligning with the Hansa as late as the 1400s would allow for strong Low German influence rather than Low Frankish?

Could these divergences maybe be combined somehow, the latter moving Holland's focus east instead of south, and Hanseatic influence then holding them back from Flemish-Brabantian influence of Frankish?
Nono, I mean during the rise of the Hansa, so in the 1200's at latest (when Holland was still mostly a swampy region with towns), not the 1400's (when Holland got the cities, power and ability to compete with the Wendish Hansa).
 
I don't think poklitics would change the nature of the language very much (though depensding on the greater scheme of things, you could see more or less High German, French, Spanish and English loan words and different standardisation). Rather, I think that politics could change the designation of the language. Norwegian is a separate language from danish today because of politics. The Norwegians would probably still speak much as they do if it was thought of as Danish, at least until the impact of universal schooling and cheap press.

The dialects of Low German spoken along the upper Rhine and the North Sea coast were closer to Dutch then they were to the Meißner High German that would displace them. If they were instead in a political system dominated from the Netherlands, there is no reason to think their speakers would adopt High German. Political realities suggest, though, that the cultural ands economic entre of this area would be in Holland. IOTL the Netherlands drew large numbers of workers from these lands well into the 19th century. Dutch fleets and armies were filled with natives of Dithmarschen, the East Frisian Islands, Westfalia and the Elbe estuary. They adapted quickly to Dutch. In a different setting, they could easily make it their status dialect. In this world, Reformed church literature from Leyden instead of Lutheran from Erfurt and Wittenberg, the books of Amserdam printshops instad of the Leipzig and Frankfurt fairs will guide the style of the leading classes. They can continue to consider their language Low German. It is not far from düdesch to duits.
I see....
Nono, I mean during the rise of the Hansa, so in the 1200's at latest (when Holland was still mostly a swampy region with towns), not the 1400's (when Holland got the cities, power and ability to compete with the Wendish Hansa).
But was the Hansa of the 1200s not less a league of cities and more a league of merchants? I vaguely remember the turning point being sometime in the 1200s.
But regardless, if Holland then still was swamps with towns I'm not sure it'd be seen as something worth attempting to expand into...
 
But was the Hansa of the 1200s not less a league of cities and more a league of merchants? I vaguely remember the turning point being sometime in the 1200s.
But regardless, if Holland then still was swamps with towns I'm not sure it'd be seen as something worth attempting to expand into...
Well, there's a reason the Hansa skipped Holland, yes. I'm just arguing if they hadn't (there were a few decent cities that might have joined, even if most of them weren't free cities, and they paled compared to Lübeck and the like) Holland would be pulled into the Low German orbit.
 
Well, there's a reason the Hansa skipped Holland, yes. I'm just arguing if they hadn't (there were a few decent cities that might have joined, even if most of them weren't free cities, and they paled compared to Lübeck and the like) Holland would be pulled into the Low German orbit.
I see....
I guess I'll have to look into that direction of the early Hansa. Thanks.
 
As Carlton said it is all a question of definition. Change the political circumstances in the 18th/19th century or under the right conditions maybe even the early 20th and Dutch can be seen more often as part of the German language than not, although the actual language is no different from otl.
This map of the German dialects from German wikipedia still counts dutch as German dialect even today:
825px-Deutsche_Dialekte.PNG
The corresponding English Wikipedia page has an even stranger map. It separates between German, Dutch and Frisian languages and claims that a small, but significant part of Germany does not speak a German dialect but a variant of the Dutch language. I can safely say that I understand that foreign language (and by that I mean Lower Renish and Dutch both) better than some dialects allegedly in the same dialect group as the one of my home region. Not to mention a Swiss or the Silesian of my Grandma.
 
As Carlton said it is all a question of definition. Change the political circumstances in the 18th/19th century or under the right conditions maybe even the early 20th and Dutch can be seen more often as part of the German language than not, although the actual language is no different from otl.
This map of the German dialects from German wikipedia still counts dutch as German dialect even today:The corresponding English Wikipedia page has an even stranger map. It separates between German, Dutch and Frisian languages and claims that a small, but significant part of Germany does not speak a German dialect but a variant of the Dutch language. I can safely say that I understand that foreign language (and by that I mean Lower Renish and Dutch both) better than some dialects allegedly in the same dialect group as the one of my home region. Not to mention a Swiss or the Silesian of my Grandma.
I´m no linguist but I usually don´t use the expression "dialect of", in the case of Dutch and German both language "came out" of the Continental west Germanic dialect continuum, albeit from 2 different regions.

I use "dialect of" when the dialect comes out of the standardized language(and after it), like the Scottish dialect of English but not like the Scots language.
 

Redbeard

Banned
If "High German" influence over N. Germany from late medieval times and the next centuries can be lessened the main language in continental N. Europe probably will be Low German. This again opens up for the Netherlands "joining" the Low German speaking power(s) - or at least defining "Dutch" as a dialect of Low German.

This ATL, which takes a pause right now (but will return some day :) ) with a PoD in 1042 creates a mainly Low German speaking Kingdom around the Baltic and North Seas and including Netherlands.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=143305
 
As Carlton said it is all a question of definition. Change the political circumstances in the 18th/19th century or under the right conditions maybe even the early 20th and Dutch can be seen more often as part of the German language than not, although the actual language is no different from otl.
This map of the German dialects from German wikipedia still counts dutch as German dialect even today:
825px-Deutsche_Dialekte.PNG
The corresponding English Wikipedia page has an even stranger map. It separates between German, Dutch and Frisian languages and claims that a small, but significant part of Germany does not speak a German dialect but a variant of the Dutch language. I can safely say that I understand that foreign language (and by that I mean Lower Renish and Dutch both) better than some dialects allegedly in the same dialect group as the one of my home region. Not to mention a Swiss or the Silesian of my Grandma.
Mhm, fair point.

I´m no linguist but I usually don´t use the expression "dialect of", in the case of Dutch and German both language "came out" of the Continental west Germanic dialect continuum, albeit from 2 different regions.

I use "dialect of" when the dialect comes out of the standardized language(and after it), like the Scottish dialect of English but not like the Scots language.
I do agree with that.

If "High German" influence over N. Germany from late medieval times and the next centuries can be lessened the main language in continental N. Europe probably will be Low German. This again opens up for the Netherlands "joining" the Low German speaking power(s) - or at least defining "Dutch" as a dialect of Low German.

This ATL, which takes a pause right now (but will return some day :) ) with a PoD in 1042 creates a mainly Low German speaking Kingdom around the Baltic and North Seas and including Netherlands.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=143305
I see.
And thanks, I'll take a look at that.
 
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