LOVE TY NEIGHBOR - a Conrand wait spin-off

um, I don't think that the Pope and the Church is going to be pleased over the Italian King taking that title, especially since it was the Italians who destroyed the Papal states just 40ish years ago. Im not too positive but I think the King was actually excommunicated during this time, as Im fairly sure Catholics were encouraged to not participate in the Italian government at the time, due to the whole "prisoner in the Vatican thing."

The Savoy royal family has some legitimate claim to the title of king of jerusalem so is not really out of thin air; regarding State and Church relationships...well is complicated, yes officially the Catholics church at the time had that stance regarding italians politics but from the start of the XXth century both side tried a akward rapproachment (the last Giolitti goverment before the war was done with the support of the catholics) so by the time of the war there were many 'private' and 'unofficially' catholics political association. Giolitti goverment coalition is at the moment an akward, strange and in many sense fragile grand alliance of liberal, moderate socialist and moderate catholics keept together by the policy of neutrality; and if the Ottoman gave to Italy the 'work' of protector of the holy site/religious order so to 'spite' the Entente, the Italian goverment accepted as a conciliatory move towards the papacy and the catholics...basically the ITTL Latheran pact will be probably signed a little earlier.
 

Well even today the head of the Savoy house have the formal title (among a plethora of others) of 'King of Cyprus, Jerusalem and Armenia, we must consider that the Savoy (as the Hasbourg and the Bourboun) are one of the most old noble house (and spread over Europe) so many of his title are overlapping with others house.
 
Technically, Savoy does have the best claim. Both the Bourban and Habsburg claims come from crown of Jerusalem being attached to one crown they own/owned (i.e. Two Sicily throne). The Savoy claim is by being blood relative of the former House of Lusignan of Cyprus, Armenia, and Jerusalem.

In regards to being the "Protector" in the Holy Lands I read that as a huge political coup by Italy, especially the House of Savoy who would gain prestige from it. In fact France could actually be called a hypocrite if they tried to take the title back since they passed the 1905 Separation Law. Also, Italy can hold that up as another example of “Great Power” status, and one that will probably cost them little to nothing.
 
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I was mainly looking at the "defender of the Faith" one actually, which really would be kinda awkward for an excommunicate to have. :)
 

BlondieBC

Banned
In regards to being the "Protector" in the Holy Lands I read that as a huge political coup by Italy, especially the House of Savoy who would gain prestige from it. In fact France could actually be called a hypocrite if they tried to take the title back since they passed the 1905 Separation Law. Also, Italy can hold that up as another example of “Great Power” status, and one that will probably cost them little to nothing.[/FONT]

Well, from the Ottoman perspective, this part of the treaty was intended to reduce the flexibility of Italian foreign policy (i.e. Keep Italy at least non-hostile to the Ottomans). The Ottomans don't see it as free, even though they do see how it can end badly. The Ottomans view this as something that could be taken away if Italy became hostile again (attack the Ottomans). While from Luke posts, the Greece spheres seem surprising, from the Ottoman's view it was a logical part of the deal. The western borders have been collapsing over the previous 10 years, and the treaty tries to settle potential flash points in one grand sweep. We drew a firm line in the sand in Africa that should be acceptable for the long term for Italy. Greece is settled. We have a commission for coal and other interests that can easily settle disputes over our Greece deal. North of that, AH provides a buffer to Europe.

Now the points on the pope not getting the title is interesting. I had assumed that the titles would be given to the pope and not cause an issue. The Ottomans left this up to the Italian government, and they are ok with any choice the Italian leaders make. I anticipated more issues for the Italian government as Russian Orthodox controlled holy sites are turned over to Catholic orders. I don't really know how much Luke plans to discuss, but the Ottomans desire that Entente religious orders be replaced by Catholic non-Entente religious orders. The Ottoman goal was also to drive a permanent wedge between France and Italy. And Russia and Italy.

And on the holy sites, it might help to discuss the Ottoman perspective on the religious orders and sites. Early on the Ottomans indicated that they wanted not creating new rights, but transferring existing rights of various holy sites of the Entente power who go to war. Part of this is to provide something the Greeks can lose if they go to war against the Ottomans or Central Powers. Part is to try to avoid causing any issues with Germany, A-H and potentially Bulgaria. Now I know the exact wording of the treaty may not exactly match this goal, but the Ottomans are trusting the Italians not to create some huge fiasco with Germany or the Hapsburgs over some Christian issue.

I guess only time will tell if it was a wise treaty.;)

I hope this post helps with the understanding of what is happening. The Ottomans are not going near internal Catholic/Italian issues. We are basically waiting for the Italians to send ships over with the needed priests and other items need to transfer control of the physical holy sites. Again, this is part of the Ottoman's desire. We dearly hope the British will stop some ship with Catholic priests and cause an incident.
 
Just to clarify the italian position regarding the Holy site, well it's a huge and i say a really huge bone to italian internal politics as the King of Italy giving them back/again to the Pope and take the duty/title of appointed defender of the site/faith mean a big reason/occasion to kiss and make up with the church solving a big problem of italian politics; sure things were on that direction even in OTL but this will accelerate the process a lot (as the neutral stance so the Pope is not seen as an adversary but an ally)...and frankly the influence on the region is a really appreciated bonus.
The italian goverment will just hand over the site to the Pope and will take care of the logistic side of the affair aka sent the priest with some ships.

Regarding Greece, yes the Ottoman proposal really surprise the italians and Giolitti and co. decided to play safe, Greece is divided between German and British supporter, both nation who's Italy don't really want upset so will limit her request to a settle of the Albania dispute (basically throw out Greeks from Epirus and some border adjustment on the Cameria region so to better appease the Albanias) and maybe Corfù and a naval base on Crete.

On North Africa, for Italy the only important point is the end of the aid to the Senussi and second the drop of any claim on the rest of North Africa (when the time will arrive), the border on Egypt is not really relevant as nobody really thing that the Ottoman can dislodge the British. In general Giolitti go for the long time and prepare the terrain for a possible expansion on Algeria/Tunisia at the negotiating table...it's a gamble but a reasonable one, at least in his opinion.
 
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I am not sure Victor Emmanuel III is really excommunicated. His Grandfather Victor Emmanuel II was, but I cannot find anywhere Leo XIII or Pius X actually excommunicated Victor Emmanuel III. Yes, there was the "Prisoner in the Vatican" stance, that does not mean excommunication. There is a huge difference between the two. Also, after 1905 Pius X did allow Catholics to vote for deputies to maintain the social order as long as they were non-Socialist. Pius X dies 20 August OTL, so the Church will go into conclave soon, so they cannot really respond officially to all these treaties. Lastly, the Church was very anti-French (well actually anti-Secular government) due to the 1905 Separation Law at this time, so they probably do not mind seeing the French losing Protector of the Holy Sites. The conclave started 13 August and had 31 Italians (55 Europeans total; 1 from both NA & SA), so an Italian Pope was very likely. Lastly, because of Pius X guidance no Monarch could claim Veto power in this conclave unlike the 1903 one.

In regards to the Conclave the three primary candidates were: Cardinal Maffi from Pisa (considered too liberal & very close to the House of Savoy; he started losing support after the 4th or 5th ballot), a Monk Domenico Serafini (leader of the anti-Modernist faction & he almost won), and Cardinal della Chiesa of Bologna (he did win OTL on the 10th ballot by one vote, and was the compromise candidate). By one vote is important because you are not supposed to vote for yourself, so it had to be verified della Chiesa did not vote for himself.

Next, Defender of the Faith and Protector of the Holy Sites are two different titles. Only the Pope can make someone Defender of the Faith (Catholic side; the British monarch claims it automatically for the Anglicans). So, the King of Italy cannot claim that title. He can claim to be Protector of the Holy Sepulchre, Protector of the Holy Sites, etc...

Third, putting Catholics in charge of Orthodox religious sites is asking for fights and even murders. Even in today's secular world fist fights breakout over the Holy Sepulchre when one domination invades an area given to another domination. Italy better velvet glove to complete hands off that issue as there is no way they will not offend the larger number of orthodox (relative to Catholic population size) worshipers in the Holy Land or even Russia herself.
 
I am not sure Victor Emmanuel III is really excommunicated. His Grandfather Victor Emmanuel II was, but I cannot find anywhere Leo XIII or Pius X actually excommunicated Victor Emmanuel III. Yes, there was the "Prisoner in the Vatican" stance, that does not mean excommunication. There is a huge difference between the two. Also, after 1905 Pius X did allow Catholics to vote for deputies to maintain the social order as long as they were non-Socialist. Pius X dies 20 August OTL, so the Church will go into conclave soon, so they cannot really respond officially to all these treaties. Lastly, the Church was very anti-French (well actually anti-Secular government) due to the 1905 Separation Law at this time, so they probably do not mind seeing the French losing Protector of the Holy Sites. The conclave started 13 August and had 31 Italians (55 Europeans total; 1 from both NA & SA), so an Italian Pope was very likely. Lastly, because of Pius X guidance no Monarch could claim Veto power in this conclave unlike the 1903 one.

In regards to the Conclave the three primary candidates were: Cardinal Maffi from Pisa (considered too liberal & very close to the House of Savoy; he started losing support after the 4th or 5th ballot), a Monk Domenico Serafini (leader of the anti-Modernist faction & he almost won), and Cardinal della Chiesa of Bologna (he did win OTL on the 10th ballot by one vote, and was the compromise candidate). By one vote is important because you are not supposed to vote for yourself, so it had to be verified della Chiesa did not vote for himself.

Next, Defender of the Faith and Protector of the Holy Sites are two different titles. Only the Pope can make someone Defender of the Faith (Catholic side; the British monarch claims it automatically for the Anglicans). So, the King of Italy cannot claim that title. He can claim to be Protector of the Holy Sepulchre, Protector of the Holy Sites, etc...

Third, putting Catholics in charge of Orthodox religious sites is asking for fights and even murders. Even in today's secular world fist fights breakout over the Holy Sepulchre when one domination invades an area given to another domination. Italy better velvet glove to complete hands off that issue as there is no way they will not offend the larger number of orthodox (relative to Catholic population size) worshipers in the Holy Land or even Russia herself.

The death of the Pope is in August and was unexpected so there will be some initial answer but yes the entire process will be a lot slowed by the election of the new Pope...who will be?

The title of Defender of the faith etc. etc. are among the plethora of titles of House Savoy, here dust up for diplomatic use and because they look good regarding that term.

Regarding the Orthodox, well the Italian goverment position regardin them is: Orthodox who?
For now the only concern is about internal italian politics with some possibilities of extending italian influence abroad, nobody really thougt the people here are not really a factor (ehy never said Italy got all right:D)
 
I am sorry, but Savoy never had any religious title like that to claim. The closet they have is: 'By the Grace of God and the Will of the Nation." However, that really is a reference to the Divine Right of the monarchy. The House of Savoy never had any Defender or Protector titles. To be honest they were a minor House ruling only a County or Duchy for long periods of history. Therefore, it would be tough to impossible for them to get titles generally given to only Kings or Emperors.

Now as King of Jerusalem they could honestly claim Protector of the Holy Sepulchre, which is a title that goes back to King Godfrey. However, the Pope (gave up in 1945 OTL) at this time is head the Order of the Holy Sepulchre, which also claims the same title. This could drive a further wedge between Savoy and the Papacy.

It would be far easier to quietly claim (thanks to the treaty with the Ottomans), Protector of the Holy Land or Protector of the Holy Sites. Your last post makes it appear they will use it for diplomatic and prestige purposes only. So, using Protector is more realistic then saying Defender. The later is given only by the Pope, and also states a willingness to "fight" for something. This might not help when being used in a diplomatic sense, where Protector is less aggressive and denotes loyalty (a good trait when signing diplomatic agreements).
 
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Edited with Protector of the Holy Sepulchre, i don't think this will create much conflict with the church as is a very minor one and basically Italy brings big gift so i think that they can be very understanding (and they need Italian back up in this case)
 
That should be fine. I have been doing more research in the Holy Sepulchre, and the lead denomination are the Greek Orthodox as of 1853. Before then it bounced between the Orthodox and the Franciscans (Catholic). Based on the text in the treaties posted. Technically, Italy now controls who leads the site. So, giving the Pope the ability to appoint a Cardinal (it would be a Cardinal or a Byzantine Rite Catholic Patriarch) to run the Holy Sepulchre would completely ease any concern over the title. I know most people on this site are not very religious. So this probably is tough to understand, but to a religious Christian the Holy Sepulchre is very special. To someone like the Pope and any Cardinal or Patriarch that would run it, even more so.

Though, the Greek Orthodox might not like it, but the Sultan did just change the 1853 status quo with the treaty. At least now they can get rid of that stupid ladder (see Immovable Ladder), and also hopefully in this timeline the place will not be in such a bad state of repair due to disagreements over repair shape & direction.
 
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Luigi Cadorna

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Chief of Staff Luigi Cadorna 1915

Born in Pallanza the 4th September 1850 in a family of long and great military tradition (is father General Raffaele Cadorna was the commander of the troops who conquered Rome), started his military studies from an early age, in fact he was only 10 when was enrolled at the at the Accademia Militare of Torino. Always noticed for his great technical knowledge, agressiviness and strict adherence to the military discipline and the frequent use of harsh punishment, his career was characterized by a slow but constant progress, achieving the grade of Lieutenant General in 1898.

In the following years Cadorna was appointed at the command of the ‘Pistoia’ Brigade and later of Military District of Naples, even writing a manual about the various mode of launch an assault and soon becoming one of the most probable successor of current Chief of Staff General Tancredi Saletta whose health was precarious. Unfortunately when in 1908 Saletta retired, the chosen successor was instead General Alberto Pollio, the greatest motivations for not giving at Cadorna the role were the terrible relationships (and public hostility) between him and then Presidente del Consiglio Giolitti and a letter of the 9th March directed to Ugo Briosati, the First Adjutant of the King, where he answered at a previous question about his stance regarding the role of the King on the Chain of Command and the general command of the armed forces as the Monarch was the formal commander in chief of the armed forces.
Cadorna in the letter proclaimed that only the Chief of Staff has the last word regarding the use of the army as the command must be unique and not divided; the answer of the General clearly describe his undiplomatic and unapologetic nature or as many behind is back said: his being full of himself .
This turn of event hit very hard Cadorna not only from a career point of view, but as an insult at his status (Pollio was the son of a captain of the Kingdom of Two Sicilies Army ) and at his military theory as the new Chief supported instead a more flexible stance so considering the impact of the new technologies on the battlefield; nevertheless hiss career continued and in 1911 was appointed as Commander of the Army Corps of Genoa.

The sudden death of Pollio the 1th July 1914 due to an hearth attack give to Cadorna an unexpected second change and ironically the fact that at 61 years he never prove himself in the battleground was an advantage as he was untouched by the defeat of Adua and the quagmire Libya has become.
Having taking the role during the July Crisis and with the following general conflict erupt, Cadorna immediately recognized that the Italian Army was not in the condition to participate at the war as the recent war against the Ottoman Empire depleted much of the necessary supply and for this reason begin, many time on his own initiative as the government was too occupied with infighting, a crash program of rearmament and resupply.
The signing of the Treaty of Venice was a total surprise for him as nobody in the government took time to inform him of any political development, but considering his usual strained relationships with the politician and the fact that Giolitti was the Minister of Finance at the time it’s not really strange, but the final straw in his opinion was the secret agreement between Italy and the Entente where the Italian government promise to leave the French border almost without a military presence, at least in Cadorna opinion.
The nature of the Treaty blocked any attempt of the General to speak with the public regarding how this development was a betrayal of the nation and how weak the military situation was now thanks to this unjust and unethical accord; he officially sent is protest to the office of Presidente del Consiglio and even at the King himself, stating that now the Entente have the path clear to conquer the entire Piedmont and the continuous aggressive stance of their troops there was not a good sign, he even suggest that there were the possibility that the orders were ignored for the good of the entire nation.
Cadorna was summoned by Giolitti some days later where in a heated (some reported that almost become a fistfight) argument the Presidente del Consiglio made very clear to the military man that his job was to obey his order and that if really don’t feel to follow them he can simply retire, assuring that despite the General political connection he will have accepted it gladly; in the end the General decided to back down and fight another day as he know that Giolitti was not bluffing and has enough political clout to convince the Monarch to support him. For the politician the principal reason for keeping a man so hard to work with, was the particular political moment, with the situation not totally resolved with the Entente despite the treaty and the army still in need to rebuild, a change of the Chief of Staff was simple adding a problem in an already complicated situation

After that the situation briefly remained calm with the Chief of Staff occupied to continue the refurbishing of the army not counting the ongoing operation in Libya and Albania but it was not a secret that in his eyes they were not really important or worse a waste of resources as he was convinced that sooner or later Italy was destined to enter the war. When in the end of May 1915 the Governor of Libya asked in panic reinforcement after the debacle of Gasr bu Hadi, his answer was a firm refusal, as in his opinion he had enough troops and materials to subdue some savage and in any case there were not troops to spare as they were needed in case of invasion; he simply suggest to increase the discipline as the men were surely become too soft and weak, for this reason they were beaten.
Soon this exchange come to the hears of Giolitti who’s commitment on the defence of the colony was famous so he don’t even bother to personally inform Cadorna that his service were no more required but simply give the task to some low level official and quietly begin an evaluation of the possible candidate.
The General tried to fight the decision making appeal to any politicians, generals and to the King but found none as he had already wasted any possible change and warned many times of that, beside his abrasive and uncompromising personality and tendencies to blame any failure to others and punish them accordingly, don’t really win any support or sympathy.
So in early July he was ‘strongly’ advised by Briosati to give is resignation and seek an honourable discharge, as he don’t have anymore the trust of the King and of the government; understanding when a battle is lost, he left but in his last speech he made vitriolic comment, bordering the charge of libel, to some undisclosed figures who are easily identified with Giolitti and his replacement as Chief of Staff Guglielmo Pecori Girardi
After his dismissal Cadorna was approached by Filippo Tommaso Marinetti, an acquaintance of D’Annunzio who viewed the former Chief of Staff as a patriot persecuted by cowardly and short sighted men (1), regarding the formation of a second Italian volunteers corps in France, to form so to not letting at that damned socialist of the Legion Garibaldi (2) all the glory and defend the honour of Italy.
The General was immediately taken by this idea, finally having the possibility to show his skill and more importantly to break free of the golden cage his retirement mean so in October he left Rome for Paris so to begin the final step for the inclusion of the Legione Arditi in the French Foreign Legion and start the training of the unit, unfortunately, after a week of staying in the city he was hit by a runaway horse and died two days later the 23 October 1915 due to cerebral haemorrhages; he is buried in his hometown of Pellazza in the family crypt.



(1) aka: The enemy of my enemy is my friend and I also dislike that damned Giolitti.
(2) The Legion Garibaldi was not a socialist affair (or at least not overwhelming) but here Marinetti try to spin things in his favors, and frankly he personally despise what Cadorna represent aka the 'old aristocratic order' but he need him as a name to rally men and without D’Annunzio and Mussolini he must adapt.

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nice, guess even if war comes the italians won't be slaughtered too badly now.

Well, in case of Italy entering the war (a big if) it's more a long term change as Cadorna from a military Pow had done the same things of Haig and Co. even if he had less flexibility and imagination, the big change is about the work enviroement, Cadorna was a martinet, inflexible on discipline and really was not capable of delegate or accepting criticism, plus he was very quick on divert any blame from him to his adjutants...in the end he was the type who want great powers but no responsabilities (in case of failure).
The fact that ITTL he was dismissed by Giolitti depends on two factors:
- he and Giolitti hated each others
- Cadorna is incapable of shout his fat mouth even if is life depends of it.
With Italy neutral and no extreme need to keep the boat steady, well is days were numbered thanks to his own character as this Premier just need an excuse to dismiss him.
Why he died? Honestly because i'm a petty bastard:eek:
 
I like it; the Italian soldiers were extremely brave and they deserve someone better, like Diaz, or maybe that guy in charge of the Trentino front for most of the war, can't remember his name right now, was hyphenated, and started with a P.
 
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