Louis XVII reigns

Let us waive away the French Revolution, because I want to (!) and have Louis XVII come to the throne in the natural course of events. How healthy is he, and does he avoid his uncles' genital problems? What sort of a person is he - intellectually, with regard to policies and beliefs?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Depends on the events that prevent the French Revolution, or at least prevent the birth of the First Republic. If there's no French Revolution altogether (say, by a lack of French intervention in a certain American rebellion) then Louis XVII is likely to grow up in the Ancien Régime culture; otherwise he will grow up in an environment where the king is weaker relative to the time of his great-grandfather.
 
Well you see all I wanted really to ask was whether there is enough information to have an idea of what he was like in temperament, intellect and so on. Maybe a question idea for an OTL History forum, tho of course it has the AH element of what sort of a king he would have been. IIRC 2 of his uncles had genital problems tho I don't think his father did, but heredity works in odd ways. I don't know if there is any medical history/knowledge of him around?

Basically its a question in view of a timeline I'm writing but am looking for the background info on him for it, rather than want to post the whole thing - maybe I will one day, but as the timeline underpins a Victoria II mod its not aimed at being posted per se. It just needs a lot of fleshing out

Thanks for replying tho
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Well you see all I wanted really to ask was whether there is enough information to have an idea of what he was like in temperament, intellect and so on. Maybe a question idea for an OTL History forum, tho of course it has the AH element of what sort of a king he would have been. IIRC 2 of his uncles had genital problems tho I don't think his father did, but heredity works in odd ways. I don't know if there is any medical history/knowledge of him around?

Basically its a question in view of a timeline I'm writing but am looking for the background info on him for it, rather than want to post the whole thing - maybe I will one day, but as the timeline underpins a Victoria II mod its not aimed at being posted per se. It just needs a lot of fleshing out

Thanks for replying tho
Best Regards
Grey Wolf

Not really enough information--he died when he was ten. Another cause is he spent half of his life under the revolutionary regime (he was born in 1785), so his temperament could be disregarded given the stresses of the royal families confinement. The Revolutionary Government handed him over into the care of the head jailer and the boy sung revolutionary songs and damned his parents, although this was partially because of the situation he was in--he also stated that his mother and his aunt had molested him, which again, was probably extracted out of force (or rather out of fear for his own life). There are some reports in Antonia Fraser's biography of Marie-Antoinette about the boy, but not much. Apparently he had a bit of a problem with lying (hence the accusations he laid against his mother). There's also a story of him playing during their confinement a toy horse and bruising one of his testicles.

The story of Louis XVI's problems were certainly made up. He kept a hunting diary and the dates he supposedly had the surgery to 'correct' the problem he was hunting! The main issue he had with Marie-Antoinette was that he didn't really know what he was doing. I know that sounds weird for us modern people, but for someone in the 18th century, it's not too surprising. Other people have said that perhaps sexual intercourse was painful because Marie-Antoinette was 'narrow'... but either way, the two seemed fine after Joseph II came to talk to him, and give him the "Birds and the Bees" so to speak, so I doubt the story about Marie-Antoinette is true. But him requiring surgery to correct a problem is totally false. The Count of Provence (the future Louis XVIII) may have been impotent later in life due to his weight, but he had no issues in the bedchamber either. His wife became pregnant on one or two occasions I believe, but suffered a miscarriage. So it's likely Louis XVII would have no issues begetting children. His behavior and temperament, however, is unknown. It wouldn't be fair to borrow from what we do know, considering it came about owing to their imprisonment, and wouldn't reflect how he might be raised.

It'd be quite different from a typical 18th century French prince, though, Savoy. Marie-Antoinette was "hand's on" and held Rousseau's teachings in regards to parenting in high regard. She also carried out reforms to her household and those of her children, so even the Ancien Régime was modernizing to an extent. If the French Monarchy had survived without a revolution, it would've become a domestic monarchy much like Victoria's Britain. A bit more absolute, yes, but Louis XVI and Marie-Antoinette were much like Victoria and Albert in that they gave a moral and temperate view of the monarchy to the populace (at least, in their earliest years). I think that trend would continue under their son, and the monarchy would become something the middle classes look up too--much like the middle classes of Britain were pleased with Victoria and her break from Georgian Opulence, we might see the middle classes of France cheer on Louis XVII as he moves back to Paris and makes a break with the time of Louis XIV, Louis XV, and Louis XVI.
 
I can see that happening. In fact if Marie Antoinette's influence continues Louis XVII can set himself up as Roi du Peuple.
 
Thank you very much both of you!

I'm sure I once had a book on him but a) I never got to read it as I had to sell off my assets, and b) most of it would probably have been given over to the time of his incarceration, the various theories about what really happened and all the junk about did he survive!

I quite like the idea of a modernising monarchy in a family sense, and wonder whether "Roi de peuple" could have become a ship name, if never quite an official title?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Thank you very much both of you!

I'm sure I once had a book on him but a) I never got to read it as I had to sell off my assets, and b) most of it would probably have been given over to the time of his incarceration, the various theories about what really happened and all the junk about did he survive!

I quite like the idea of a modernising monarchy in a family sense, and wonder whether "Roi de peuple" could have become a ship name, if never quite an official title?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

While I don't think Louis XVII would survive until the first ironclad is made I'd think his son/successor would want to name one such.
 
While I don't think Louis XVII would survive until the first ironclad is made I'd think his son/successor would want to name one such.

I dunno: La Gloire was launched in 1859. He'd be 74... but it's not totally far-fetched. Charles X lived to be 79, and Louis XIV died when he was 76. Louis XV died when he was 64, but the Bourbons seemed to be fairly robust--this child would also have the genes of Augustus the Strong and Maria Theresa on his side. Aside from the first sickly Dauphin, Louis XVII was regarded as fairly robust. His surviving sister died only in 1852, at 72.
 
I dunno: La Gloire was launched in 1859. He'd be 74... but it's not totally far-fetched. Charles X lived to be 79, and Louis XIV died when he was 76. Louis XV died when he was 64, but the Bourbons seemed to be fairly robust--this child would also have the genes of Augustus the Strong and Maria Theresa on his side. Aside from the first sickly Dauphin, Louis XVII was regarded as fairly robust. His surviving sister died only in 1852, at 72.

Could work. Louis XV could have lived longer too if he didn't contract smallpox.

Now, how long would his father's reign be sans French Revolution/Republic...
 
Ending in the 1810s at the earliest, probably in the 1820s or so more likely, barring any serious illnesses. Like the Count of Provence he was pretty portly so it wouldn't surprise me if he ended up developing gout at some point. Artois was much more slimmer than the both of them, so he was much more healthy... Provence was actually in poor health given his weight, so I'm surprised he lived as long as he did.
 
Could work. Louis XV could have lived longer too if he didn't contract smallpox.

Now, how long would his father's reign be sans French Revolution/Republic...

Yes, that's a good point. Born 1754, he'd be only 46 at the new century so living into the 1820s is quite possible... That''s certainly something to think about for the timeline. One forgets he was relatively young when executed (relative to being old, anyway)

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
So, assuming no French Revolution/Republic:

Louis XVI 1774-1824, dying at the age of 70.
Louis XVII 1824-1864, assuming he lives as long as his uncle OTL Charles X did.

Nice, round 50- and 40-year reigns.
 
How healthy is he, and does he avoid his uncles' genital problems? What sort of a person is he - intellectually, with regard to policies and beliefs?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
He could get cough! circumcised cough! like the sons of Queen Victoria were in the early 19th century and he can marry a daughter of Fersen.. joke..

I think he can be a good ruler of France or survive as a noble in exhile in America.
 
And give enough time for the changes to be cemented. When Louis XVII dies he's beloved by the people, he's reigned in a time when the railroads were built, the merchant marine expanded, and the industrial complex was born. Not sure how politically his reign would play out, but I could see him being fairly beloved, a kind of benevolent monarch--he'd be on the tail end of enlightened despotism but could probably reign as such for a portion of his reign until some sort of constitutional document is seceded. Maybe one important aspect of his reign is securing working hours for young children or abolishing it all together (the terrible woes of child labor and general work hours for the working class were the en vogue issue of the day in the 1830s, and it was abolished IOTL in France and Prussia and Britain passed laws as well) so perhaps that is how he earns his epithet by declaring the practice incompatible with French laws and that no child should be forced to work, ect ect, and that like Henri IV he will assure each Frenchmen have a turkey in his pot each Sunday. We could see a cult of that king spring up during Louis XVII's reign, and when he dies in the early 1860s--he's succeeded by the Dauphin, his young grandson, who with his charming wife, much like Louis XVI usher in a new glorious age for France.
 
And give enough time for the changes to be cemented. When Louis XVII dies he's beloved by the people, he's reigned in a time when the railroads were built, the merchant marine expanded, and the industrial complex was born. Not sure how politically his reign would play out, but I could see him being fairly beloved, a kind of benevolent monarch--he'd be on the tail end of enlightened despotism but could probably reign as such for a portion of his reign until some sort of constitutional document is seceded. Maybe one important aspect of his reign is securing working hours for young children or abolishing it all together (the terrible woes of child labor and general work hours for the working class were the en vogue issue of the day in the 1830s, and it was abolished IOTL in France and Prussia and Britain passed laws as well) so perhaps that is how he earns his epithet by declaring the practice incompatible with French laws and that no child should be forced to work, ect ect, and that like Henri IV he will assure each Frenchmen have a turkey in his pot each Sunday. We could see a cult of that king spring up during Louis XVII's reign, and when he dies in the early 1860s--he's succeeded by the Dauphin, his young grandson, who with his charming wife, much like Louis XVI usher in a new glorious age for France.

Hang on - I'll make a mini-timeline thread to get that idea out. ;)
 
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