Louis XIV has more legitimate children.

Following up from a previous thread that I'd posted here. Louis XIV and Maria Theresa of Spain had:

Louis, Le Grand Dauphin b. 1661 d. 1711

Anne Elisabeth of France b. 1662 d. 1662

Marie Anne of France b. 1664 d. 1664

Marie Therese of France b. 1667 d. 1672

Philippe Duke of Anjou b. 1668 d. 1671

Louis Francois b. 1672 d. 1672.

What I'm wondering is what happens if all of these kids survive? How does this change things in Europe? I imagine that Philippe would be named as Charles II of Spain's heir, and perhaps married to Maria Antonia if she has no surviving brothers. BUt what of the others?
 
Anne Elisabeth gets married to decrepit Carlos II according to her mother's wishes (originally Marie Therese wanted her third (and the only surviving past infancy into early childhood) daughter to marry this way). In fact she may also be named heiress presumptive for Spain as due to Salic Law there is no threat of her being anywhere in French succession (sort of situation in A&D where Marie Therese survives, the Austrians do recognize HER Spanish rights (kind of) but she gets to marry an Austrian archduke to unite the claims).
Marie Anne can be offered for Grand Prince of Tuscany or I see her (during her early years) being betrothed to the English James, Duke of Cambridge (providing he survives past 1667, that can mean that she's a future Queen of Great Britain).
Marie Therese... I'm not sure. Maybe takes place of her Orleans cousin in Savoy match, maybe goes to Tuscany (assuming Duke of Cambridge survives).

Louis Francois (Duc de Berry) can marry Violante Beatrice of Bavaria, if one of his sisters marries into Tuscany. I imagine with legitimate daughters marrying into Spain Louis XIV MAY permit the Dauphin to marry his Orleans cousin (the possiblity is slim, though).
 
Anne Elisabeth gets married to decrepit Carlos II according to her mother's wishes (originally Marie Therese wanted her third (and the only surviving past infancy into early childhood) daughter to marry this way). In fact she may also be named heiress presumptive for Spain as due to Salic Law there is no threat of her being anywhere in French succession (sort of situation in A&D where Marie Therese survives, the Austrians do recognize HER Spanish rights (kind of) but she gets to marry an Austrian archduke to unite the claims).
Marie Anne can be offered for Grand Prince of Tuscany or I see her (during her early years) being betrothed to the English James, Duke of Cambridge (providing he survives past 1667, that can mean that she's a future Queen of Great Britain).
Marie Therese... I'm not sure. Maybe takes place of her Orleans cousin in Savoy match, maybe goes to Tuscany (assuming Duke of Cambridge survives).

Louis Francois (Duc de Berry) can marry Violante Beatrice of Bavaria, if one of his sisters marries into Tuscany. I imagine with legitimate daughters marrying into Spain Louis XIV MAY permit the Dauphin to marry his Orleans cousin (the possiblity is slim, though).

Alright very interesting, I suppose then that once Charles II kicks it, that Anne Elisabeth could claim the throne, if she has her father's backing? Or would the situation still be for one of the boys to claim the throne, if Leopold himself has no sons from Margaret Theresa. As for Philippe Duke of Anjou, do you imagine he'd be kept in the priesthood if he survived as well.
 
I left Philippe out not because I want him to become a Royal Cardinal (Bourbons tended to leave this to bastard lines) but because I'm not sure of what exactly would be agreed about Spanish succession. If Louis XIV has surviving legitimate DAUGHTERS, then Austrians won't object to one of them being named Princess of Asturias, since French laws do not allow women to inherit the crown, and unlike male claimants, there is no threat of any personal unions. The marriages of the princesses would have to be arranged carefully thus.
If Anne Elisabeth gets named Princess of Asturias/Queen of Spain, then Duc d'Anjou is the one who marries the eldest of Orleans girls (that was sorta the plan when he lived, since that allowed him to claim the part of Montpensier inheritance).
 
In fact, there may (or even WILL) be situation when the part of Montpensier inheritance that OTL went to Duc de Maine gets to Duc d'Anjou. And Louis, having large legitimate family, would be less generous to his male bastards.
 
Okay now that is interesting, so in the interests of preventing a potential union and war, the male candidates would be ignored in favour of the female candidate. Now that is interesting. I presume then that once Carlos is on his deathbed, he'd name his wife his heir, if indeed he does marry his niece Anne Elisabeth. Once he is gone, would that then mean that She'd need to look for a marriage amongst either a Habsburg or the Savoyard claimants?
 
I presume that if Carlos lives as long as OTL, then by the time he dies Anne I/Isabel II of Spain (depends which name she takes as regnal one) would have more than enough nephews and nieces from her siblings (both brothers and sisters) to name one of them as Prince of Asturias, and with sufficient diversity in marriages it may be a person quite distant in line to the French throne or not in line at all.
 
This is very true.

I suppose what I need to decide now is how willing would Louis be to have his daughter take the throne instead of his son
 
In fact, the whole situation may end up developing quasi-independently of Louis wishes. He and Marie Therese wanted to marry their eldest surviving daughter to Carlos II. So the marriage happens (presumably after the Dutch war), and the Spanish King names his wife as a successor in his will, simply for the sake of having her already high into succession line and on hand. I think that Louis would look ridiculous for not accepting such a free offer, especially the one likely to go uncontested by anyone.
And if Anne Elisabeth/Ana Isabel takes after her father in personality, she won't be letting her dad and not herself naming who would succeed HER. That's where things can go interesting if the opinions of father and daughter get different.
 
In fact, the whole situation may end up developing quasi-independently of Louis wishes. He and Marie Therese wanted to marry their eldest surviving daughter to Carlos II. So the marriage happens (presumably after the Dutch war), and the Spanish King names his wife as a successor in his will, simply for the sake of having her already high into succession line and on hand. I think that Louis would look ridiculous for not accepting such a free offer, especially the one likely to go uncontested by anyone.
And if Anne Elisabeth/Ana Isabel takes after her father in personality, she won't be letting her dad and not herself naming who would succeed HER. That's where things can go interesting if the opinions of father and daughter get different.

I agree, and it would certainly make for an interesting scenario. I imagine then that Louis would want perhaps a son of Le Grand Dauphin to perhaps succeed her, or perhaps a son of one of his other brothers. Would Carlos II name his wife his heir then do you think?
 
Would Carlos II name his wife his heir then do you think?
That completely depends on their relationship. If these are like the ones between Carlos and his OTL first wife, then naming the wife a heir to Spanish crown "in recognition of Maria Teresa dynastic rights but to prevent direct union with House of Bourbon" is possible.
 
Anne Elisabeth would be the most senior descendant of Maria Theresa not in line to French throne (due to her gender).
 
Given how long the illegitimate daughters of Louis lived, Anne may well live to early 1730ies, though, so the last word in naming successor would belong to her. That would be quite an interesting TL.
 
That completely depends on their relationship. If these are like the ones between Carlos and his OTL first wife, then naming the wife a heir to Spanish crown "in recognition of Maria Teresa dynastic rights but to prevent direct union with House of Bourbon" is possible.

Alright this is very true, and would definitely make for an interesting timeline. I do think it would work well with having her sister marry James, Duke of Cambridge, who could later ascend the throne as James III and VIII.
 
James III and VIII.jpg
So for those interested, I've decided to start some wiki boxes for a potential timeline based on this. Do let me know what you think.

Felipe V of Spain.jpg
View attachment 315062
 
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For this timeline I'm also going to have otl Felipe v of Spain become Philippe vii of France. This would occur through his father, brother and nephews all dying from the measles outbreak in 1712. What I'm wondering is, would Felipe without being the king of Spain here marry Maria Louisa of savoy as he did otl, ormwould he marry elsewhere?
 
View attachment 315090 So for those interested, I've decided to start some wiki boxes for a potential timeline based on this. Do let me know what you think.

As a child of James' first marriage who grew up during Charles' reign I imagine James III/VIII is Protestant- so would he go for a Catholic match, given the family history (depending on butterflies- Dad went Catholic, had a Catholic second wife, maybe got kicked off the throne for it; Grandad was suspected of Catholic sympathies, had a controversial French Catholic wife, ended up without a head etc.)? I s'pose much would depend on how continental alliance are configuring themselves (and indeed whether Charles II, James II/VII or James III/VIII is organising the marriage).
 
The match is arranged during Charles II' reign, circa 1680, and there may be NO Mary of Modena TTL when France does not have to rely on "proxy princesses". The weird thing is two Catholic matches for daughters - unless James III marries his SONS Protestant, imitating James I in reverse.
 
You know me, a big fan of female reigning monarchs.

So Ana Isabel (as Anna Elizabeth would become known in Spain) would marry old Carlos II, but the marriage would never be consummated, however with Ana Isabel IN Spain with a good claim to the throne, the Spanish nobility would quickly fall on the idea of just making her the heir and work to prepare her to actually rule Spain. It wouldn't surprise me if she managed to take the Regency for her husband as part of this.

With Spain in hand, probably before her husband was even dead, Queen Ana Isabel I would quickly discover that she doesn't have to listen to her father back in Paris if she doesn't want to, so she won't.

As for a husband... Well considering Carlos II's condition it wouldn't surprise me if Ana Isabel fell in love with someone in the Spanish court, maybe even take the man as a lover, by the time Carlos is dead she might have already decided to marry said lover and damn the consequences.

While it would be perturbing for Spain's nobility to see one of their own become King-Consort, they would see the birth of a purely Spanish dynasty with no messy German/French connections and lands as... desirable.

The question is... Who could woo young Ana Isabel?
 
As a child of James' first marriage who grew up during Charles' reign I imagine James III/VIII is Protestant- so would he go for a Catholic match, given the family history (depending on butterflies- Dad went Catholic, had a Catholic second wife, maybe got kicked off the throne for it; Grandad was suspected of Catholic sympathies, had a controversial French Catholic wife, ended up without a head etc.)? I s'pose much would depend on how continental alliance are configuring themselves (and indeed whether Charles II, James II/VII or James III/VIII is organising the marriage).
From what I remember reading Charles II was all for giving his second in line a catholic marriage, especially if it was with his friends daughter. James II would be even more in favour of it
 
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