Louis XIV born in 1619

If Louis XIV had been born in 1619, he would have been a different guy. For one, he would have become King at the age of 24 so he would be a grown up man and there would be no need for a regency. Second thing is that Anne of Austria's role in his education would probably have been reduced a bit because of Louis XIII and Cardinal Richelieu (I don't see Richelieu's rise being butterflied here). Anne wouldn't necessarilly be out of the picture though: she and Louis XIII were at their closest in their relationship in 1619 thanks to the fact the Duke of Luynes and his wife (the future Duchess of Chevreuse) were close friends to both.

The goal of Louis XIII and Richelieu had been to increase royal power, and improve the governance of the realm. OTL Louis XIV followed in on their footsteps, so it's likely TTL Louis XIV would do the same. Where they will probably differ are on the methods because they won't have the same personnality. Depending on how events play out, we might not see a revocation of the Edict of Nantes for example, though TTL Louis XIV might still look up at ways to reduce the power of the Protestants. TTL Louis XIV might also not be as warmonging and glory seeking as OTL Sun King, though he would definitely want to have France a major power if not THE major power in Europe.

In terms of immediate change for France, the first big one might be with the Fronde. The Fronde has a chance of not happening because the transition will be a bit smoother: the King here will be an adult with a few political years behind him, possibly military experience (Thirty Years' War), possibly married and with a secure succession, and it's likely we would have another King-Cardinal duo in charge (Mazarin being Richelieu's designated successor). Even if the Fronde isn't butterflied away, it probably wouldn't be as huge a nuisance as it was OTL or at least events could play out differently. The second immediate change might be the Franco-Spanish war. It's dependant on the Fronde of course, but the conflict will be affected by having an adult Louis XIV succeeding his father. The French could potentially do better against Spain if they have no internal troubles.

Regarding the potential bride for TTL Louis XIV, I would personnally be looking for one in Italy or Catholic Germany. Among the possibilities, there is notably Louise-Christine of Savoy (1629-1692): she's the daughter of Louis XIII's sister, Christine, and Duke Victor Amadeus I of Savoy. The situation in Savoy at the time might lead to such a match if Duchess Christine want to strengthen the alliance with France or feels the need to have the support of the King. The main problem though is the ten year gap between the spouses in this scenario.
Most likely only as a last resort if a more suitable match can't be found in the other courts of Europe. Doubt it would come to this.
TTL Louis XIV marrying a Hapsburg to secure peace is still among the possibilities though: it wouldn't be the first match resulting of this. Trouble might be on finding a suitable candidate: I don't know if Emperor Ferdinand III has an available female relative at the time and King Philip IV of Spain's daughters are too young here (Maria Theresa, the wife of OTL Louis XIV was born in 1638 and she is Philippe IV's eldest surviving daughter).
Actually, Henri IV's original plan was to have Louis XIII marry Nicole of Lorraine, daughter of Duke Henri II of Lorraine. This would possibly have allowed for a peaceful annexation of Lorraine by France. Given that Henri IV died before that though, the plan never came to fruition and even then, the succession of Nicole in Lorraine was hugely contested (to the point she was eventually overthrown by her own husband and cousin, Charles IV of Lorraine).

A match with Lorraine however here is highly unlikely. For one, there are no real potential brides for TTL Louis XIV among the Ducal family. Second, and probably the biggest problem, Duke Charles IV of Lorraine wasn't on the best of terms with Louis XIII: as a matter of fact, he often supported Gaston d'Orléans, Louis XIII's always conspiring younger brother, to the point Gaston endedup marrying one of Charles IV's daughters, Marguerite.
Her being eight years younger than TTL Louis XIV might be a problem in the grand scheme of things. Plus, as reliable as the United Provinces are as an ally for France, the match might not be considered that prestigious. And there is the problem of her having to convert to Catholicism: not necessarilly a huge problem, but still a problem.
The Stuarts being cousins wouldn't really stop the marriage: OTL Louis XIV married his double first cousin Maria Theresa of Spain and his brother Philippe's first wife was also a first cousin and a Stuart to boot (Henriette Anne of England). Plus, first cousin marriages were pretty common.

That being said, I agree that most of the Stuart princess aren't the right age to marry TTL Louis XIV.
I'd personnally say pretty unlikely. Assuming Gustav Adolph does end up having a son, Christina is still second-in-line. I think both her father and the Swedish nobility would favor a Protestant match for her.

There are also troubles on the French side to take into account: Sweden is an ally and a powerful Kingdom, but I still think Louis XIII would look to secure a Catholic match first and foremost.

Okay interesting, so a Mazarin Louis 14 duo working together certainly very interesting. What might relation between father and son be like?

As for marriage options which other Italian or German brides are their available?

As for Gustav II if he has a son whom might this kid marry?
 
TTL Louis XIV marrying a Hapsburg to secure peace is still among the possibilities though: it wouldn't be the first match resulting of this. Trouble might be on finding a suitable candidate: I don't know if Emperor Ferdinand III has an available female relative at the time and King Philip IV of Spain's daughters are too young here (Maria Theresa, the wife of OTL Louis XIV was born in 1638 and she is Philippe IV's eldest surviving daughter).

Maybe if you want someone related to the Habsburgs, you could try Anna Catherine Constance Vasa, princess of Poland: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Catherine_Constance_Vasa

Apparently Gaston of Orleans was considered as her husband, so it wouldn't be so unlikely. And she was also born in 1619, so there wouldn't be any need to wait many years until the bride grow up to be married.
 
Maybe if you want someone related to the Habsburgs, you could try Anna Catherine Constance Vasa, princess of Poland: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Catherine_Constance_Vasa

Apparently Gaston of Orleans was considered as her husband, so it wouldn't be so unlikely. And she was also born in 1619, so there wouldn't be any need to wait many years until the bride grow up to be married.

Interesting a tie to Poland could bring many interesting things
 
So let's say that Louis XIII is successful in winning the hand of Anna Catherine for his son and heir Louis XIV, and the two marry in 1637 when they are eighteen, what consequences does this have?
 
Hmmm... a Polish princess is an interesting possibility, and if she has better fertility record than OTL, it may possibly lead to a French candidate to Polish throne with a strong blood claim, not merely "the relative of most recent Queen". Though this is valid only if Anna Catherine produces a heir and a spare.
But I think that there are some more interesting candidates.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_de'_Medici,_Archduchess_of_Austria
Another Habsburg connected princess in the running, better fertility record to boot.
As for more obscure ones... there is a d'Este princess.
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margherita_d'Este
 
As for Gustav II if he has a son whom might this kid marry?
I am actually in the process of writing a TL in regard to this situation. I figured it was underused so here is what I have come up with thus far...

Possibilities for a wife of Gustav II Adolf's son:

1. Henriette Marie, daughter of Elizabeth, Queen of Bohemia (1626-1651)
2. Hedwig Sophia, Margravine of Brandenburg (1623-1683): had seven children OTL
3. Anna Maria of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (1627-1669): had twelve children OTL

I have also looked at a few other possibilities so any of these three may not be introduced in my TL as the prince's wife.
 
Hmmm... a Polish princess is an interesting possibility, and if she has better fertility record than OTL, it may possibly lead to a French candidate to Polish throne with a strong blood claim, not merely "the relative of most recent Queen". Though this is valid only if Anna Catherine produces a heir and a spare.
But I think that there are some more interesting candidates.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_de'_Medici,_Archduchess_of_Austria
Another Habsburg connected princess in the running, better fertility record to boot.
As for more obscure ones... there is a d'Este princess.
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margherita_d'Este

Okay interesting, I do think a d'Este princess or a Polish Vasa would be quite interesting

I am actually in the process of writing a TL in regard to this situation. I figured it was underused so here is what I have come up with thus far...

Possibilities for a wife of Gustav II Adolf's son:

1. Henriette Marie, daughter of Elizabeth, Queen of Bohemia (1626-1651)
2. Hedwig Sophia, Margravine of Brandenburg (1623-1683): had seven children OTL
3. Anna Maria of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (1627-1669): had twelve children OTL

I have also looked at a few other possibilities so any of these three may not be introduced in my TL as the prince's wife.

Okay cool, if you don't mind would it be alright if I used Hedwig Sophia for this bloke' wife?
 
VVD0D95 said:
What might relation between father and son be like?
Depends on a lot of things. Complicating things is that his parent's marriage might be happier as a result of his birth in 1619 given that at the time they were in a pretty good phase as I pointed out earlier: this might have a small impact on Louis XIII's personnality. And given that Louis XIII was already a pretty complex character... The biggest variable is actually young Louis XIV himself though. Even if we admit common traits his OTL counterpart, TTL Louis XIV won't have the same childhood and thus personnality.

The conlcusion to this is that the relationship could as well be a good one as it could be a strained one.
VVD0D95 said:
As for marriage options which other Italian or German brides are their available?
For the German princesses, I'd rather let someone with a better knowledge of the HRE and its composite states look into it. For me, it's a bit too much of a mess because of how divided it is.

For Italy, a quick look up led to the following possibilities:

  • Louise-Christine of Savoy (1629-1692), whom I already talked about earlier. The situation in Savoy at the time does seem like she could be considered but she's a bit young.
  • Anne Marie Gonzaga (1616-1684), daughter of Charles I, Duke of Mantua & Montferrat. Charles won the Mantuan throne after the War of the Mantuan Succession (1628-1631), during which he had the support of France: the marriage might be a way to secure an alliance with the Duchy. The problems would be that her father started as a French noble and the that Louis XIII had already greatly disagreed to her elder sister Marie Louise (1611-1667) marrying Gaston d'Orléans OTL (Marie Louise was shortly imprisonned in 1627).
  • Maria Caterina Farnese (1615-1646) and her younger sister Vittoria (1618-1649), daughters of Ranuccio I, Duke of Parma. Both ended up marrying Francesco I, Duke of Modena (Vittoria replaced her sister after her death). Their brother, Odoardo, tried an alliance with France in 1633 to counter Spanish influence in Italy. Trouble is that Rannuccio I had a pretty terrible reputation in Italy, to the point his son Odoardo had a hard time looking for a bride.
  • Margherita d'Este (1619-1692), daughter of Alphonse III d'Este. She married Ferrante III Gonzaga, Duke of Guastalla OTL. She is connected to the imperial family as Valena pointed out, but she seems to be a distant cousin and might be a bit obscure for the French court.
  • Anna de Medici (1616-1676), daughter of Cosimo II, Grand Duke of Tuscany. OTL, she married Archduke Ferdinand Charles of Austria. Originally planned to marry Gaston d'Orléans at one point but negotiations failed.
Gonzaga said:
Maybe if you want someone related to the Habsburgs, you could try Anna Catherine Constance Vasa, princess of Poland: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_C...Constance_Vasa

Apparently Gaston of Orleans was considered as her husband, so it wouldn't be so unlikely. And she was also born in 1619, so there wouldn't be any need to wait many years until the bride grow up to be married.
While that could be an interesting match, I think the timing might make it impossible. Anne Catherine would be 12 in 1631, in the middle of the Thirty Years War. France only entered the conflict in 1635 but they played a part in having Sweden enter the conflict. Sweden and Poland were ennemies at the time, notably because Anne Catherine's father, Sigismund III, was overthrown from the Swedish throne in 1599 by his uncle Charles IX (Gustav II Adolphus's father). Add in that Sigismund wanted to intervene on the Haspburg side of the Thirty Years War (but couldn't because of the Sejm) and I don't think Poland would be okay with a marriage with France because it's an ally of Sweden and the Protestant princes of the HRE. The same way, I'm not sure a Polish marriage would do well for the Franco-Swedish alliance.
 
Depends on a lot of things. Complicating things is that his parent's marriage might be happier as a result of his birth in 1619 given that at the time they were in a pretty good phase as I pointed out earlier: this might have a small impact on Louis XIII's personnality. And given that Louis XIII was already a pretty complex character... The biggest variable is actually young Louis XIV himself though. Even if we admit common traits his OTL counterpart, TTL Louis XIV won't have the same childhood and thus personnality.

The conlcusion to this is that the relationship could as well be a good one as it could be a strained one.
For the German princesses, I'd rather let someone with a better knowledge of the HRE and its composite states look into it. For me, it's a bit too much of a mess because of how divided it is.

For Italy, a quick look up led to the following possibilities:

  • Louise-Christine of Savoy (1629-1692), whom I already talked about earlier. The situation in Savoy at the time does seem like she could be considered but she's a bit young.
  • Anne Marie Gonzaga (1616-1684), daughter of Charles I, Duke of Mantua & Montferrat. Charles won the Mantuan throne after the War of the Mantuan Succession (1628-1631), during which he had the support of France: the marriage might be a way to secure an alliance with the Duchy. The problems would be that her father started as a French noble and the that Louis XIII had already greatly disagreed to her elder sister Marie Louise (1611-1667) marrying Gaston d'Orléans OTL (Marie Louise was shortly imprisonned in 1627).
  • Maria Caterina Farnese (1615-1646) and her younger sister Vittoria (1618-1649), daughters of Ranuccio I, Duke of Parma. Both ended up marrying Francesco I, Duke of Modena (Vittoria replaced her sister after her death). Their brother, Odoardo, tried an alliance with France in 1633 to counter Spanish influence in Italy. Trouble is that Rannuccio I had a pretty terrible reputation in Italy, to the point his son Odoardo had a hard time looking for a bride.
  • Margherita d'Este (1619-1692), daughter of Alphonse III d'Este. She married Ferrante III Gonzaga, Duke of Guastalla OTL. She is connected to the imperial family as Valena pointed out, but she seems to be a distant cousin and might be a bit obscure for the French court.
  • Anna de Medici (1616-1676), daughter of Cosimo II, Grand Duke of Tuscany. OTL, she married Archduke Ferdinand Charles of Austria. Originally planned to marry Gaston d'Orléans at one point but negotiations failed.
While that could be an interesting match, I think the timing might make it impossible. Anne Catherine would be 12 in 1631, in the middle of the Thirty Years War. France only entered the conflict in 1635 but they played a part in having Sweden enter the conflict. Sweden and Poland were ennemies at the time, notably because Anne Catherine's father, Sigismund III, was overthrown from the Swedish throne in 1599 by his uncle Charles IX (Gustav II Adolphus's father). Add in that Sigismund wanted to intervene on the Haspburg side of the Thirty Years War (but couldn't because of the Sejm) and I don't think Poland would be okay with a marriage with France because it's an ally of Sweden and the Protestant princes of the HRE. The same way, I'm not sure a Polish marriage would do well for the Franco-Swedish alliance.

Okay interesting, I am thinking that Louis XIV might still retain some of that political intellect that made him such a fierce competitor and king in OTL.

As for a marriage, I am thinking that Anna de Medici might be a good bet, further cementing ties with the Medici family. Or perhaps D'Este, to diversify things a wee bit
 
Anna de Medici is a half-Habsburg via her mother, easily the highest ranked candidate, and does not directly piss off anybody (unlike a marriage alliance with Poland, which runs into Polish-Swedish conflict trouble). So I think she's the best candidate (d'Este is too obscure and the marriage lack obvious benefits of close alliances).
 
Anna de Medici is a half-Habsburg via her mother, easily the highest ranked candidate, and does not directly piss off anybody (unlike a marriage alliance with Poland, which runs into Polish-Swedish conflict trouble). So I think she's the best candidate (d'Este is too obscure and the marriage lack obvious benefits of close alliances).

Okay quality, Anna De Medici it is then. So if they marry in say 1635, when Louis is 16 and Anne is 19, what consequences might this bring?
 
Anna de Medici is a half-Habsburg via her mother, easily the highest ranked candidate, and does not directly piss off anybody (unlike a marriage alliance with Poland, which runs into Polish-Swedish conflict trouble). So I think she's the best candidate (d'Este is too obscure and the marriage lack obvious benefits of close alliances).
Something interesting that I found was that there was a failed plan to have her married off to Gaston, Duke of Orleans.
 
Okay quality, Anna De Medici it is then. So if they marry in say 1635, when Louis is 16 and Anne is 19, what consequences might this bring?
If their first child is a boy and is born circa 1638-1640, Maria Theresa of Spain may marry to the SON of TTL Louis XIV, provided (barring warming the relations with Austrian Habsburgs a wee bit after Anne & Louis match) the French-Spanish conflict drags on as OTL.
Also, if Anna de Medici marries TTL Louis XIV, then her OTL husband may marry someone closer to his age, with butterflies for Tyrol Habsburg branches that entail. Maybe Eleonora Gonzaga (OTL Holy Roman Empress)?

I wonder whether the rest of gynecological history of Anne of Austria is the same to OTL (a string of miscarriages past 1619 live birth and then Duc d'Anjou born in 1638 and Duc de Berri in 1640)?
 
If their first child is a boy and is born circa 1638-1640, Maria Theresa of Spain may marry to the SON of TTL Louis XIV, provided (barring warming the relations with Austrian Habsburgs a wee bit after Anne & Louis match) the French-Spanish conflict drags on as OTL.
Also, if Anna de Medici marries TTL Louis XIV, then her OTL husband may marry someone closer to his age, with butterflies for Tyrol Habsburg branches that entail. Maybe Eleonora Gonzaga (OTL Holy Roman Empress)?

I wonder whether the rest of gynecological history of Anne of Austria is the same to OTL (a string of miscarriages past 1619 live birth and then Duc d'Anjou born in 1638 and Duc de Berri in 1640)?

Interesting, so let's say that their first child is born around 1636, and is named Henry, I guess he'd be later married off to Maria Theresa then? Spanish War of Succession potential, unless Philip IV's son by his first wife survives, or if he has a son earlier in his first marriage, and the line can continue. I do wonder if Louis XIV would have as long a reign as he did otl.

And interesting, Eleonora Gonzaga could be quite interesting as the wife of Tyrol Habsburg, who might her otl husband marry?

And intresting, let's say three of those miscarriages survive, who might they be and what might they influence?
 
And interesting, Eleonora Gonzaga could be quite interesting as the wife of Tyrol Habsburg, who might her otl husband marry?
The butterflies may mean that his first or second wives do not die in childbirth, simplifying things a bit.

And intresting, let's say three of those miscarriages survive, who might they be and what might they influence?
Let's say that 1625 and 1631 were born fine princesses (let's call them Anna-Maria (Madame Royale) and Charlotte-Henriette). Anne of Austria always dreamed of a daughter.
Those girls can be used in Nassau/Stuart alliances with Anna-Maria marrying William II and Charlotte-Henriette marrying Charles II.
 
TTL Louis XIV marrying a Hapsburg to secure peace is still among the possibilities though: it wouldn't be the first match resulting of this. Trouble might be on finding a suitable candidate: I don't know if Emperor Ferdinand III has an available female relative at the time and King Philip IV of Spain's daughters are too young here (Maria Theresa, the wife of OTL Louis XIV was born in 1638 and she is Philippe IV's eldest surviving daughter).
Actually, Henri IV's original plan was to have Louis XIII marry Nicole of Lorraine, daughter of Duke Henri II of Lorraine. This would possibly have allowed for a peaceful annexation of Lorraine by France. Given that Henri IV died before that though, the plan never came to fruition and even then, the succession of Nicole in Lorraine was hugely contested (to the point she was eventually overthrown by her own husband and cousin, Charles IV of Lorraine).

A match with Lorraine however here is highly unlikely. For one, there are no real potential brides for TTL Louis XIV among the Ducal family. Second, and probably the biggest problem, Duke Charles IV of Lorraine wasn't on the best of terms with Louis XIII: as a matter of fact, he often supported Gaston d'Orléans, Louis XIII's always conspiring younger brother, to the point Gaston endedup marrying one of Charles IV's daughters, Marguerite.

Well, what if LXIV marries Marguerite instead of Gaston as a sort of peace-offering between Lorraine and France. She's four years older than him, admittedly, or her younger sister, Christine (1621-1622) could make a reasonably safe match. I mean, Marie de Bourbon-Montpensier's death in childbed is not necessarily a given with a POD in 1619, so chances of Gaston looking for a second wife are 50/50. Plus, LXIII wanted his brother to marry Marie Louise of Gonzaga-Nevers and someone (I can't remember who, probably their mother) wanted Gaston to marry Anna de Medici. So, Gaston could be forced into an arranged marriage instead.

Plus, as far as Habsburg relations are concerned, there's always the Further Austrian branch. A POD in 1619 could see Archduke Leopold V marrying someone else entirely, or that his eldest daughter, Eleonore, survives infancy, and as a Habsburg she'll do in a pinch. Plus there's always the interesting possibility of France claiming the inheritance of Further Austria if all goes as OTL with that branch.
 
The butterflies may mean that his first or second wives do not die in childbirth, simplifying things a bit.


Let's say that 1625 and 1631 were born fine princesses (let's call them Anna-Maria (Madame Royale) and Charlotte-Henriette). Anne of Austria always dreamed of a daughter.
Those girls can be used in Nassau/Stuart alliances with Anna-Maria marrying William II and Charlotte-Henriette marrying Charles II.

Okay interesting, would the marriage to Charles II take place following the restoration then? If of course the ECW still goes the same way?

Well, what if LXIV marries Marguerite instead of Gaston as a sort of peace-offering between Lorraine and France. She's four years older than him, admittedly, or her younger sister, Christine (1621-1622) could make a reasonably safe match. I mean, Marie de Bourbon-Montpensier's death in childbed is not necessarily a given with a POD in 1619, so chances of Gaston looking for a second wife are 50/50. Plus, LXIII wanted his brother to marry Marie Louise of Gonzaga-Nevers and someone (I can't remember who, probably their mother) wanted Gaston to marry Anna de Medici. So, Gaston could be forced into an arranged marriage instead.

Plus, as far as Habsburg relations are concerned, there's always the Further Austrian branch. A POD in 1619 could see Archduke Leopold V marrying someone else entirely, or that his eldest daughter, Eleonore, survives infancy, and as a Habsburg she'll do in a pinch. Plus there's always the interesting possibility of France claiming the inheritance of Further Austria if all goes as OTL with that branch.

Interesting, very interesting.
 
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