Louis XIV and XV's death in 1712?

Who would have become king of France if both Louis XIV and Louis XV have died in 1712?
a) Philip V of Spain
b) Louis I of Spain
c) Philippe d'Orléans
d) Charles, duke of Berry

Note that the Treaty of Utrecht is not yet signed.
 
Who would have become king of France if both Louis XIV and Louis XV have died in 1712?
a) Philip V of Spain
b) Louis I of Spain
c) Philippe d'Orléans
d) Charles, duke of Berry

Note that the Treaty of Utrecht is not yet signed.

I assume U mean the entire main male line AKA Louis XIV, his son the Grand Dauphin, his grandson the Duc de Bourgogne and his great grandsons Louis duc de bretagne and his younger brother OTL Louis XV. Going by salic law Philip V would become King as Philip VI and I guess Charles Duc de Berri would be named Regent until Philip returns. Or Philip and his line is ignored and Charles Duc de Berri would become Charles X.
 
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I assume U mean the entire main male line AKA Louis XIV, his son the Grand Dauphin, his grandson the Duc de Bourgogne and his great grandsons Louis duc de bretagne and his younger brother OTL Louis XV. Going by salic law Philip V would become King as Philip VI and I guess Charles Duc de Berri would be named Regent until Philip returns. Or Philip and his line is ignored and Charles Duc de Berri would become Charles X.

In 1712 the Grand Dauphin OTL was already dead (he died in 1711) and the Duc of Bourgogne, his wife and his eldest son the Duc of Bretagne OTL died in that year for measles or smallpox and also their younger son the Duc d'Anjou (the OTL Louis XV) was infected (but he survive, mostly thanks his governess), but if you remove the governess is likely who also the Duc de Anjou will die as his parents and brother.
 
Utrecht wasn't signed but Le Roi Soleil knew that trying to unite France and Spain was politically impossible, most assuredly by this point in the war if it had ever been a realistic prospect at any previous point, which it hadn't. I strongly suspect that in these circumstances Louis would feel the need to make a stipulation in his will on the successsion, which is not too implausible as he did it IOTL, upholding Utrecht, and going further than that in depriving Philip of Spain of the regency, which was also his by right of blood.

In short, I think you are going to get Berry as king. The only way you could realistically get Philip V as King would be if Berry and he did a swapsie of their kingdoms, as by the rough terms of earlier Spanish succession provisions, but that's too arty farty in a situation in which there would need to be an immediate political resolution.

In short, if you're trying to look for a way to shortcut to a Franco-Spanish union, political reality stands pretty firmly in the way of it by this point.
 
True; but that's not to say having someone of age, like Charles (assuming he lives to 1715) would have a significant impact on France in its own right...
 
True; but that's not to say having someone of age, like Charles (assuming he lives to 1715) would have a significant impact on France in its own right...

Berry to me looks like a standard late French Bourbon; a womaniser and of no great ability. Now if we ended up with Burgundy or Orleans as king, we might be cooking with gas, but I wouldn't expect anything exceptional from Berry. In foreign policy he would be constrained by the exact same forces that Orleans and Fleury were, and domestically there's no reason to suppose he would signal a great divergence from OTL.
 
Who would have become king of France if both Louis XIV and Louis XV have died in 1712?
a) Philip V of Spain
b) Louis I of Spain
c) Philippe d'Orléans
d) Charles, duke of Berry

Note that the Treaty of Utrecht is not yet signed.

you forgot some one, well two someones

Louis-Auguste de Bourbon, duc du Maine, and his little brother Louis Alexandre de Bourbon, comte de Toulouse the legitimised sons and favorites of Louis XIV, in OTL in 1714 Louis put them in the line of succession and when he died he made Maine co-regent with the Duke of Orléans, though Orléans kept him out
 
Nobody is going to treat Maine et al anymore seriously than they did IOTL; Orleans swept them out of the picture politically almost as soon as Louis' corpse was cold. They're only going to potentially become relevant in extremis, which is to say, the entire whack of French Bourbons, including Orleans and his heirs, dying off. Even then you've got the Condes and whatnot still knocking about. Maine was both horrifically unpopular and a legitimised bastard, he had about 1/24th of a leg to stand on politically, if that.
 
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I think the option where Philip gets the throne and Berry the Spanish throne might be the most possible. Since Utrecht hasn't been signed yet Philip is still the heir to the throne of France.
 
I think the option where Philip gets the throne and Berry the Spanish throne might be the most possible. Since Utrecht hasn't been signed yet Philip is still the heir to the throne of France.

But Luis of Spain was already born. Its more likely that Philip V would take the French throne and his son would assume the Spanish Throne. After all He's been king for, what 10,12 years at this point and I doubt that the Spanish would take their King changing thrones well. I can see the Duc de Berri becoming Regent of Spain or King of France but everyone knows that an Franco-Spanish Union was not possible. The logistics of governing such an empire would be a nightmare and the Allies would never allow it.
 
The problem with a Bourbon throne swap is that there really isn't time for it if Louis cops it suddenly. Philip abdicating in Spain, renouncing his rights there and those of his heirs, Berry becoming king in Spain, clarification on what would happen to Spain if Berry died without issue - all that would need to be done along with treaty-level international ratification and clarification, and there simply isn't the time for that. You need immediate clarity on who's king the moment Louis snuffs it, and by far the most likely winner of that game of musical chairs is Berry.
 
The problem with a Bourbon throne swap is that there really isn't time for it if Louis cops it suddenly. Philip abdicating in Spain, renouncing his rights there and those of his heirs, Berry becoming king in Spain, clarification on what would happen to Spain if Berry died without issue - all that would need to be done along with treaty-level international ratification and clarification, and there simply isn't the time for that.

Not to mention the war was still ongoing. I wonder if Louis XIV's death would bring Spain and France to the negotiating table? Or would if be better if just Louis XIV survives, giving the Bourbon's some time to figure out who gets what, so to speak?
 
Not to mention the war was still ongoing. I wonder if Louis XIV's death would bring Spain and France to the negotiating table? Or would if be better if just Louis XIV survives, giving the Bourbon's some time to figure out who gets what, so to speak?

The negotiations were already in progress at this point. I don't see how Louis' death could do anything other than help things along though; if Berry succeeds in France then that largely puts to bed any immediate fear of union. Utrecht would be ratifying a fait accompli which everyone could get behind.
 
The negotiations were already in progress at this point. I don't see how Louis' death could do anything other than help things along though; if Berry succeeds in France then that largely puts to bed any immediate fear of union. Utrecht would be ratifying a fait accompli which everyone could get behind.

So if the negations were already in progress would the French risk continuing the war by following salic law and letting Philip become King of France?
 
If Philip becomes king then in short the whole of Europe will go ape shit, the negotiations are dead in the water, and everyone in France at this point knew - and the king knew it as much as anyone else - that France needed more war like it needed a hole in the head.

There is no 'France' or 'the French' though here, unless you're talking about the king. And Louis showed a shrewd and restrained understanding, and absolutely no inclination to tamper with the Utrecht settlement in his OTL 1715 will and dispensations, indeed he exceeded it. There's no reason to believe he would try to make Philip his successor in an identical strategic situation only a few years earlier. Louis didn't give a damn about salic high constitutional legalism incidentally - as previously noted he legitimised his bastard children. It's a purely political decision for him - l'etat cest moi - and the political path is pretty clear. France is exhausted and needs peace, Philip is never going to be accepted as king of France and Spain, this is a war France can't win on those terms.

Even IF by some strange quirk of decision-making Louis does point to Philip as his successor in his will - let's say he becomes a little delirious and Madame de Maintenon, dreaming of Maine becoming French regent for King Philip, puts the thumb screws to work on him - I'm not sure that would actually happen. Parts of Louis' OTL will were voided in council, notably those making Maine governor of OTL's Louis XV and related attempts to undercut Orleans' power as regent. The Princes du Sang may just say 'We don't want to be ruled from Madrid, and France needs peace, not more war' and make Berry king, and if they do there is really damn-all Philip can do about it. We saw how war between Spain and the rest of Europe went IOTL, and it didn't go well for Spain.
 
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