Louis XIII and Anne of Austria

[Yorel]

We know Louis XIII and Anne of Austria's marriage wasn't a happy one and this impression is strenghtened by the fact it produced only two children : the future Louis XIV (1638-1714) and his brother Philip, Duke of Orléans (1640-1701). What is not taught in History lesson is that Anne suffered four miscariage before the birth of OTL Louis XIV.

My mind wandered on what would have been the consequences of the four stillborn child not having been stillborn. So, let's say they were not as our POD. Thus, Louis XIII and Anne of Austria have the following children :

1. Louis (born on December 1619)
2. Marie (born on March 14, 1622)
3. Elisabeth (born on 1626)
4. Philippe (born on April 1631)
5. Henri (born on September 5, 1638)
6. Charles (born on September 21, 1640)

Given that OTL Louis XIV lived up to 76 and his younger brother to 61, we can assume that those children will live up until the 1700s or around so.

The first and direct consequence of Anne of Austria bearing so many children would be that her regency following the death of Louis XIII in 1643 is butterflied away. The reason is that the heir to the throne (the ATL Louis XIV in this case) would be 24. Without Anne's Regency, Cardinal Mazarin's position might not be as important as it was, and the Fronde could be butterflied away.

Another consequence is that it will probably weaken the position of Gaston d'Orléans, younger brother of Louis XIII. OTL, Gaston was Louis' main opponent and his position as heir made him a strong opponent until OTL Louis XIV was born in 1638. With a son born as early as 1619, Gaston won't be much of nuisance. Without him, the Fronde des Princes is likely to be butterflied away.

What other consequences could there be?
Who would be the possible brides (or husbands for the girls) of those children?

 

[The Professor]

Well I understand that Mazarin was primarily responsible for the major terms of the Peace of Westphalia so that will likely go differently and perhaps less well for France.

 

[Yorel]

No one else interested beside The Professor?

 

[The Professor]

No one else interested beside The Professor?

I hope there are more soon.
The only bits I know about that period on the continent tend to come from an infamous Online Encyclopedia

 

[Gonzaga]

Well I understand that Mazarin was primarily responsible for the major terms of the Peace of Westphalia so that will likely go differently and perhaps less well for France.

One interesting effect is that giving how the nobles hated Richelieu many of them could start to support givin powers to the young ATL Louis XIV. If he is raised more influenced by his Habsburg mother and the Catholic nobles it could have interesting consequences in the 30 Years War as well. Maybe an earlier peace?

 

[Vitruvius]

Its definitely and interesting idea. I agree that Gaston will be less of a problem, though it seems as though he's still likely to be a trouble maker, just a less effective one. And I'd also agree that the 30 Years War could end differently. I don't know what to make of Mazarin, whether this new Louis XIV would use him or not I don't know. Perhaps some one with more knowledge of French politics of the time could answer better. I do wonder about the long term dynamic within France.

If Anne has children earlier it seems reasonable that she would remain closer to the King, likely decreasing or at least moderating Richelieu's influence over Louis XIII. Her children would also be raised differently I think. OTL Philippe of Orleans was, I believe, raised to be the subservient and loyal subject of his brother so as not to produce another Gaston. With four children and a less powerful Gaston they're likely to be raised differently. Without or with a weaker Fronde and no regency this will only reinforce a sense of security around Louis XIV. So although his reign starts off stronger there may be problems down the road with the nobles, perhaps even his own brothers. Until he's confronted with that there may be less impetus to build an absolutist state around the monarch in quite the same way as OTL Louis XIV. This would have obvious consequences for the evolution of France as we know it.

As for who they are and who they marry.

1. Louis XIV: Since he has three younger brothers there isn't likely to be a rush for him to marry and secure the succession. Having said that he'd have to wait quite a while for a good Habsburg candidate to come of age so that seems unlikely. Same goes for most other major foreign houses, waiting for a bride from Portugal, England, Bavaria etc would mean he's not married until he's approaching thirty. I was thinking maybe Anne of Lorraine, daughter of Charles IV of Lorraine. Without Gaston's troublemaking the Duke would likely remain in the good graces of France and so it could be a good match. Depending on how the Fronde goes he could also marry Anne Genevieve of Bourbon, daughter of the Prince of Conde, as a way of binding the House of Condé to the throne.

2. Marie: She's probably too old for a Spanish, Austrian or English match so probably some German or Italian duke. Maybe to Philip William, heir to Pfalz-Neuburg which also controlled Julich-Berg. His house was neutral for most of the 30 Years War so maybe they could be brought into the French camp, or used as mediators.

3. Elisabeth: If she's not married by then she could become Ferdinand III's second wife around the end of the 30 Years War. A more interesting possibility would be William II of Orange because this would preclude is marriage to Mary, Princess Royal, of England.

4. Philippe: He's surely to be made Duc d'Anjou and probably receives Orléans when Gaston dies. Its possible he could be wed to an Austrian Habsburg as part of a settlement ending the 30 Years War. Ferdinand III has a couple cousins who might work, Isabella Clara and Maria Leopoldine (Ferdinand eventually took the latter as his second wife). Or perhaps one of the daughters of Victor Amadeus of Savoy, he had several, and could make a useful ally in Italy against Spain. If we assume the above marriage of Elisabeth and William II then Philippe could marry Princess Mary himself.

5. Henri: I'm guessing maybe Duc de Berry (w or w/o Touraine) or Alençon (Gaston received Alençon only in 1646). Another possibility is Bourbon, as the Duchy of Bourbon as been vacant since 1527. Perhaps he's given Bourbon and La Marche when Philippe receives Orléans as a way of balancing the scales. He could get the Spanish match OTL Louis XIV got. If not his marriage is still likely to be used like his elder brother Philippe to suit the diplomatic needs of France.

6. Charles: Probably Berry or Alençon, whichever his brother doesn't get. Other possibilities include Vermandois (very old, no holders for a long time), Provence or Bourgogne (no holders since their Houses died out and they fell to the crown). He could get OTL Philippe's bride Henrietta of England assuming Philippe hasn't married the her sister Mary. Or he could get OTL Philippe's other wife, Elizabeth Charlotte, or both depending on the circumstances. An alternative could be one of the daughters of Francesco I of Modena or some other minor house. It seems probable his two elder brothers would take care of the major diplomatic marriages, and I don't see a bride from a major house he'd be more suited for than Philippe or Henri.

 

[Gonzaga]

1. Louis XIV: Since he has three younger brothers there isn't likely to be a rush for him to marry and secure the succession. Having said that he'd have to wait quite a while for a good Habsburg candidate to come of age so that seems unlikely. Same goes for most other major foreign houses, waiting for a bride from Portugal, England, Bavaria etc would mean he's not married until he's approaching thirty.

If the French want an early marriage but insist on a bride from a royal family then there is princess Anna Catherine Constance of Poland, who was born at the same year as ATL Louis XIV. Or given the relation between the Bourbons and the Medici though the mother of Louis XIII they could try Anna de' Medici .

 

[Yorel]

If Anne has children earlier it seems reasonable that she would remain closer to the King, likely decreasing or at least moderating Richelieu's influence over Louis XIII.

It's true having produced six children could lead Anne to be closer to Louis XIII than she was OTL. In regard to her influence, I'd say she would be more likely to moderate Richelieu's influence on Louis XIII. Louis XIII was wary of Anne's Habsburg blood, so he would take her decisions with caution. Yet, it's not impossible he would seek Anne's support if he and Richelieu have an argument on certain political decisions.

1. Louis XIV: Since he has three younger brothers there isn't likely to be a rush for him to marry and secure the succession. Having said that he'd have to wait quite a while for a good Habsburg candidate to come of age so that seems unlikely. Same goes for most other major foreign houses, waiting for a bride from Portugal, England, Bavaria etc would mean he's not married until he's approaching thirty. I was thinking maybe Anne of Lorraine, daughter of Charles IV of Lorraine. Without Gaston's troublemaking the Duke would likely remain in the good graces of France and so it could be a good match. Depending on how the Fronde goes he could also marry Anne Genevieve of Bourbon, daughter of the Prince of Conde, as a way of binding the House of Condé to the throne.

If the French want an early marriage but insist on a bride from a royal family then there is princess Anna Catherine Constance of Poland, who was born at the same year as ATL Louis XIV. Or given the relation between the Bourbons and the Medici though the mother of Louis XIII they could try Anna de' Medici .

ATL Louis XIV marrying Anne of Lorraine would be an interesting possibility if the marriage had chances of bringing Lorraine in French orbit, or to integrate it into the Kingdom. However, I think there were troubles in regards of Anne's legitimacy as her brother didn't inherit the Duchy of Lorraine OTL.

The Polish match could also be interesting for France. Poland is a neighbor of Hapsburg Austria : marrying the future King of France to a polish princess could be a way of strenghtening the ties between the two kingdoms and secure an alliance.

The Bourbon-Condé match, should it be done, would be more likely to go for one of ATL Louis XIV' younger brothers rather than Louis himself in my opinion. The Prince de Condé isn't a monarch, so his daughter would be less interesting as a future Queen in the eyes of the French monarchy.

As for the Anna de Medici, I don't think it a plausible scenario. Given the fact Louis XIII hated his mother, I doubt he would want his son to have anything to do with a Medici.

2. Marie: She's probably too old for a Spanish, Austrian or English match so probably some German or Italian duke. Maybe to Philip William, heir to Pfalz-Neuburg which also controlled Julich-Berg. His house was neutral for most of the 30 Years War so maybe they could be brought into the French camp, or used as mediators.

Seems a plausible match. To be sure I'm not wrong, isn't Philip William the one who became Count Palatine of the Rhine, and thus Prince Elector? If so, this is indeed a very interesting match for France.

3. Elisabeth: If she's not married by then she could become Ferdinand III's second wife around the end of the 30 Years War. A more interesting possibility would be William II of Orange because this would preclude is marriage to Mary, Princess Royal, of England.

Both match seem likely in my opinion. With Ferdinand III, it would be a way of securing peace. With William II of Orange, it would be a way of drawing the Netherlands into an alliance with France. I would tend to go for the Prince of Orange, because the Netherlands aren't really Hapsburg-friendly.

4. Philippe: He's surely to be made Duc d'Anjou and probably receives Orléans when Gaston dies. Its possible he could be wed to an Austrian Habsburg as part of a settlement ending the 30 Years War. Ferdinand III has a couple cousins who might work, Isabella Clara and Maria Leopoldine (Ferdinand eventually took the latter as his second wife). Or perhaps one of the daughters of Victor Amadeus of Savoy, he had several, and could make a useful ally in Italy against Spain. If we assume the above marriage of Elisabeth and William II then Philippe could marry Princess Mary himself.

Agreed on the fact Philippe would bear the title Duke of Anjou first then Duke of Orléans after the death of his uncle. That's what happened with OTL Philippe d'Orléans, and TTL Philippe d'Orléans plays the same role as his OTL counterpart in regards of succession.

The French were rather close to the House of Savoy at the time, so a marriage between Philippe and a daughter of the House of Savoy would be the most plausible scenario in my opinion.

Yet, Philippe would only be 12 upon the death of his father (which happened in 1643), so Louis XIII may not have a word on Philippe's bride (since he would be dead). So, I guess it's possible that Philippe weds one of the two Austrian princesses you mentionned.

I'm less sure of the possibility of Philip marrying the Princess Royal. While the Stuarts and Bourbons had a pretty good relationship, Mary is protestant while Philip would be Catholic. Plus, I think it would be a dangerous move for the Stuarts in this time period, while I'm enjoying the idea of a possible Jacobite French claimant in the person of Philip and Mary's son.

5. Henri: I'm guessing maybe Duc de Berry (w or w/o Touraine) or Alençon (Gaston received Alençon only in 1646). Another possibility is Bourbon, as the Duchy of Bourbon as been vacant since 1527. Perhaps he's given Bourbon and La Marche when Philippe receives Orléans as a way of balancing the scales. He could get the Spanish match OTL Louis XIV got. If not his marriage is still likely to be used like his elder brother Philippe to suit the diplomatic needs of France.

For Henri's title, I would tend to go for Duke of Burgundy. That's the title that was given to the eldest grandson of OTL Louis XIV whose brothers were Duke of Anjou and Duke of Berry in that order. It thus seems Duke of Burgundy is more high ranking than Duke of Berry.

I would have thought the Spanish marriage to be more likely with Philippe than Henri given the origins of Anne (who was a spanish princess despite being called "of Austria"). Philippe and Maria Theresa would only be seven years apart, so it would be possible. Yet, with the possibilities we evoked earlier on Philippe, I guess Henri could be a good match for Maria Theresa too.

This would be an interesting scenario in regards to TTL version of the War of Spanish Succession if it happens. In this scenario, the Bourbon candidate would have less chances of inheriting the French throne (being only a descendant of the third son of Louis XIII), so he might get more support from the other European monarchies.

6. Charles: Probably Berry or Alençon, whichever his brother doesn't get. Other possibilities include Vermandois (very old, no holders for a long time), Provence or Bourgogne (no holders since their Houses died out and they fell to the crown). He could get OTL Philippe's bride Henrietta of England assuming Philippe hasn't married the her sister Mary. Or he could get OTL Philippe's other wife, Elizabeth Charlotte, or both depending on the circumstances. An alternative could be one of the daughters of Francesco I of Modena or some other minor house. It seems probable his two elder brothers would take care of the major diplomatic marriages, and I don't see a bride from a major house he'd be more suited for than Philippe or Henri.

I'd go for Duke of Berry for Charles' title. I explained it partially when I said why I would make Henri Duke of Burgundy.

Personnally, if Charles were to wed Elizabeth Charlotte, I wouldn't mind. I really love the character of the Princesse Palatine, so having her married to a French prince seems a good idea. However, there could be a problem with the fact Charles' older sister (Marie) could be married to Philip William, who became Elector Palatine following the death of Elizabeth Charlotte's brother (if I'm not wrong). In a way, the French would have secure an alliance with whoever becomes Elector Palatine (thanks to the double marriages) but I'm not sure they would do so.

There is also the fact Henrietta of England had been the wife of OTL Philippe d'Orléans before Elizabeth Charlotte. I doubt the Princess Royal would be married to Charles' brother Philippe, so Henrietta could be Charles' bride in this scenario.

As you mentionned also, Charles is only the youngest son of Louis XIII. So, he would be less interesting because he is rather far from the French throne. He could still be used as a political tool, but marrying him to a minor Italian princess would be very likely.

 

[Vitruvius]

However, I think there were troubles in regards of Anne's legitimacy as her brother didn't inherit the Duchy of Lorraine OTL.

Good point. I'm not clear on exactly how that was resolved. Whether her brother lost Lorraine because the French deposed their father and installed their cousin Nicholas or because their father married their mother before getting an official Papal annulment of his first marriage. It should be noted that Nicholas was a Bishop and Cardinal in Pectore so his own marriage required Papal dispensation as well. So if the French wanted the match it shouldn't be too hard to arrange the necessary paperwork, so to speak, to make it all legit. But I hadn't thought of the Polish match until Gonzaga suggested it and I too really like the idea so maybe that's just the better bet.

Seems a plausible match. To be sure I'm not wrong, isn't Philip William the one who became Count Palatine of the Rhine, and thus Prince Elector? If so, this is indeed a very interesting match for France.

Philip William did indeed inherit but one has to keep in mind that at the time of hypothetical marriage between the two (~1640) the current Elector Palatine has 5 younger brothers and is a young man himself so the prospect that all 6 of them would die without heirs leaving the Electoral Palatinate to Philip William probably wouldn't factor into the decision. One interesting thing is that Philip William's first wife OTL was Anna Catherine of Vasa so if she marries Louis XIV then Philip William will still be looking for a wife.

I'm less sure of the possibility of Philip marrying the Princess Royal. While the Stuarts and Bourbons had a pretty good relationship, Mary is protestant while Philip would be Catholic. Plus, I think it would be a dangerous move for the Stuarts in this time period, while I'm enjoying the idea of a possible Jacobite French claimant in the person of Philip and Mary's son.

That didn't stop her sister Henrietta. And I thought that there were some Catholic suitors considered before they settled on William of Orange. But I could be wrong. I agree its not the most likely but its a possibility. If not its definitely worth considering who she marries if not William of Orange.

For Henri's title, I would tend to go for Duke of Burgundy. That's the title that was given to the eldest grandson of OTL Louis XIV whose brothers were Duke of Anjou and Duke of Berry in that order. It thus seems Duke of Burgundy is more high ranking than Duke of Berry.

Well the issue with Louis XIV's grandchildren is that they are the children of a Dauphin which I believe was unprecedented at the time. Normally French Kings had not lived so long as to be alive during the youths of their grandchildren. The only example I could find was Francis II who was born during the reign of Francis I. But Francis I died when he was 3 years old so he quickly became Dauphin and so never had any other title. So what do you title the son of a Dauphin? They decided on Burgundy, again unprecedented as Burgundy had only been bestowed as an appanage twice by French Kings. Each time it resulted in a long lasting dynasty. The first time it was granted to the third son of Robert II and the second time it was given to the fourth and youngest son of Jean II. Burgundy was thus considered to come after Berry (which seems to usually be given to the third son).

It only became powerful because of the wealth and lands its Dukes accrued. Which brings up another point. The last time it was given out as an appanage it didn't work out so well for the French Kings. So unsurprisingly after the death of Charles the Bold the French Kings never bestowed the title again until le Petit Dauphin. Partially because it was claimed, even up to the time we're considering here, by the Habsburgs. Thus giving out a significant and contested appanage to your third son when your brother has already proven that he's willing to defy the King and conspire with enemies of France may not be something Louis XIII is interested in doing.

By the time Louis XIV bestowed the title the power of the nobility had been greatly reduced and the Spanish Habsburgs defeated thus the appanage would be less significant. That's also why you see very ancient appanages like Toulousse, Vermandois and Vexin being revived for his legitimated children. Therefore Berry is most likely here and Burgundy is only a less likely 'possibility' for his younger brother Charles and even then I'm not sure about it.

I'd go for Duke of Berry for Charles' title. I explained it partially when I said why I would make Henri Duke of Burgundy.

Well if we assume Henri gets Berry and considering the issues surrounding Burgundy I'd tend towards Alençon. Henri II gave it to his fourth son and it had previously been used at times for third sons so it seems more likely. But its up to Louis XIII and so he could always get more creative and revive a title like Burgundy.


While the naming and matching of all these extra children is interesting and kind of fun I'm still curious about the nature of France under this new Louis XIV. He will take power under very different circumstances than his OTL counterpart and with different people around him. So his reign is bound to be substantially different. So does anyone have any other thoughts on how that might play out? I still think its reasonable to posit that he will go easier on the nobility since they won't be immediately threatening him. Beyond that I'm not sure.

 

[Yorel]

Good point. I'm not clear on exactly how that was resolved. Whether her brother lost Lorraine because the French deposed their father and installed their cousin Nicholas or because their father married their mother before getting an official Papal annulment of his first marriage. It should be noted that Nicholas was a Bishop and Cardinal in Pectore so his own marriage required Papal dispensation as well. So if the French wanted the match it shouldn't be too hard to arrange the necessary paperwork, so to speak, to make it all legit. But I hadn't thought of the Polish match until Gonzaga suggested it and I too really like the idea so maybe that's just the better bet.

Well, in my eyes, both matches have their advantages. If TTL Louis XIV were to wed the heiress of Lorraine, he would increase the size of his kingdom, which is good news to him since he rules more lands. As for the Polish match, it would be a good way of making an ally of Poland, a country that has a border with Austria (An ennemy of France).

All depends on what would appear better at the time.

That didn't stop her sister Henrietta. And I thought that there were some Catholic suitors considered before they settled on William of Orange. But I could be wrong. I agree its not the most likely but its a possibility. If not its definitely worth considering who she marries if not William of Orange.

Well, the problem of Mary is that she is the eldest daughter of Charles I, meaning her bloodline comes after her two older brothers (Charles II and James II). Chances she would inherit the throne are low, but Parliament would probably secure that she is wedded to a Protestant in case the two sons were to die childless (or prove unworthy of their throne).

I'm not saying the match could be impossible. But I think it would pose a problem to the Stuarts. Plus, Cromwell and his Commonwealth weren't that far off, so the Stuarts would not want to risk their throne so early.

I do admit that having her not marry William II of Orange would be an interesting scenario, although I do not know who else she could marry. By this, I mean I don't know her other possible suitors, not that I think the marriage was inevitable.

Well the issue with Louis XIV's grandchildren is that they are the children of a Dauphin which I believe was unprecedented at the time. Normally French Kings had not lived so long as to be alive during the youths of their grandchildren. The only example I could find was Francis II who was born during the reign of Francis I. But Francis I died when he was 3 years old so he quickly became Dauphin and so never had any other title.

I can see at least two other cases. One is that of Louis IX, who was born during the reign of his grandfather Philip II Augustus (Louis IX was 9 when his grandfather died). Then there is Philip IV who was 2 when his own grandfather (Louis IX) died. I also think Charles V of France was born during the reign of his granfather Philip VI, but I'll have to check.

However, it's true that in those three cases, the grandson of the French King was never granted an Apanage.

So what do you title the son of a Dauphin? They decided on Burgundy, again unprecedented as Burgundy had only been bestowed as an appanage twice by French Kings. Each time it resulted in a long lasting dynasty. The first time it was granted to the third son of Robert II and the second time it was given to the fourth and youngest son of Jean II. Burgundy was thus considered to come after Berry (which seems to usually be given to the third son).

It only became powerful because of the wealth and lands its Dukes accrued. Which brings up another point. The last time it was given out as an appanage it didn't work out so well for the French Kings. So unsurprisingly after the death of Charles the Bold the French Kings never bestowed the title again until le Petit Dauphin. Partially because it was claimed, even up to the time we're considering here, by the Habsburgs. Thus giving out a significant and contested appanage to your third son when your brother has already proven that he's willing to defy the King and conspire with enemies of France may not be something Louis XIII is interested in doing.

By the time Louis XIV bestowed the title the power of the nobility had been greatly reduced and the Spanish Habsburgs defeated thus the appanage would be less significant. That's also why you see very ancient appanages like Toulousse, Vermandois and Vexin being revived for his legitimated children. Therefore Berry is most likely here and Burgundy is only a less likely 'possibility' for his younger brother Charles and even then I'm not sure about it.

Flawless reasonning. In this case, Berry is indeed most likely.

Another thing crossed my mind. When we talked about Philippe, we said he would get Anjou then Orléans like his OTL counterpart. OTL, when Philippe got the Duchy of Orléans, he gave back Anjou to the crown and Anjou was later awarded to the second grandson of Louis XIV. In this scenario, it's possible after TTL Philippe gets Orléans, Henri swaps Berry for Anjou. What do you think?

Well if we assume Henri gets Berry and considering the issues surrounding Burgundy I'd tend towards Alençon. Henri II gave it to his fourth son and it had previously been used at times for third sons so it seems more likely. But its up to Louis XIII and so he could always get more creative and revive a title like Burgundy.

Given what you told me earlier on Burgundy, I think the title wouldn't be given by Louis XIII. TTL Louis XIV might, but I think it would be a bit early with Louis XIII.

Alençon seems a good possibility indeed if Berry isn't there. Then, there is possibly the fact Alençon might be swapped for Berry later. It all comes with the reasonning I have that if Philippe swaps Anjou for Orléans, then Henri might swap Berry for Anjou and thus Charles could swap Alençon for Berry. It wouldn't seem impossible since Henri II's fourth son (you mentionned him) swapped Alençon for Anjou when his brother Henri III became King.

While the naming and matching of all these extra children is interesting and kind of fun I'm still curious about the nature of France under this new Louis XIV. He will take power under very different circumstances than his OTL counterpart and with different people around him. So his reign is bound to be substantially different. So does anyone have any other thoughts on how that might play out? I still think its reasonable to posit that he will go easier on the nobility since they won't be immediately threatening him. Beyond that I'm not sure.

That's kind of hard question. TTL Louis XIV could be anything from a mighty king to a complete incompetent since he isn't the same as OTL Louis XIV. At least, that's what it says on paper since we created this Louis XIV from a child that was stillborn OTL.

Louis XIII would probably take a greater part in his son's education since TTL Louis XIV is born in 1619 and not 1638. It's highly possible Louis XIII and Richelieu play some sort of influence on his personna. On the other hand, Anne of Austria's role will be reduced in his education : since TTL Louis XIV will be 24 on the death of his father, Anne will have no Regency and will not undertake most of her son's education. She could still have some role as, earlier in the discussion, we talked about the possibility she would be more close to Louis XIII and the fact he might use her to moderate Richelieu's power.

This brings the question of Cardinal Mazarin. OTL, Mazarin was Richelieu's successor, so Mazarin might take the role Richelieu had with Louis XIII, but with TTL Louis XIV. I said earlier that Mazarin's position might not be as important, but he might stay as an important minister of France even if not on the scale of Richelieu.

If the Fronde doesn't happen, then there is no reason TTL Louis XIV would fear the nobility. If it does, the shock could be less important than it was to OTL Louis XIV (who was a child and was reigning only in name). TTL Louis XIV might still try to reduce the nobility's power like his OTL counterpart, but not on the same scale. We could thus have a less absolutist France, which might mean no Versailles Castle (which is a bit sad since it's a magnificient palace) or at least not immediately. If there is no Fronde, TTL Louis XIV might choose to stay at the Louvre, and thus to remain in Paris.

Regarding his marriage, all would depend on how TTL Louis XIV gets along with his wife, be it Anne Catherine Vasa of Poland, Anne of Lorraine or someone else. IOTL, his counterpart didn't get along well with Maria Theresa and as a result, he took many mistresses (most notably the Marquise de Montepsan, mother of most his illegitimate children, and the Marquise de Maintenon, who became his second wife). ITTL, if the marriage is happy, there might be no reason for him to take a mistress.

In regards to diplomacy, provided things go OTL, Louis XIV will have to confront two things. First are England & Scotland (not yet Britain) : if Charles II doesn't get children, he will be succeeded by James II who will probably get kicked out like OTL. If TTL Louis XIV adopts the same attitude as his OTL counterpart, he will support the Jacobites and England & France will once again be at each others' throat. That might also depends on who succeeds James II and how his relationship is with TTL Louis XIV : OTL, Louis XIV and William III of England hated each other.
Second is Spain. If things go OTL, Philip IV will be succeeded by his ill-fated son Charles II "the Bewitched". Charles II was mentally ill and phyiscally unable to have a child, so his succession will be an important question. TTL Louis XIV will likely support the candidacy of the children of his brother Henri (whom who said might get the Spanish marriage). This might be better for a possible Bourbon Spain as a Franco-Spanish Personnal Union will be less likely.

We can assume that TTL Louis XIV will try to expand France and get territories that should be French like his OTL countepart : Franche-Comté, Alsace and a number of Northern cities might be his primary target. Maybe even Wallonia, since it's a Catholic French-speaking area.

Regarding inner policies, the main question is going to be Religion. TTL Louis XIV might not suppress the Edit de Nantes which tolerated Religious Freedom. However, he might still seek to weaken the Protestant Party in fear it becomes "a state in the state". Louis XIII's reign was marked by a similar policy : if he played a greater role in his son's education, you might get a Louis XIV continuing his father's policies.

France might develop a better navy like it did OTL if TTL Louis XIV ends up with Colbert as one of his ministers (which is likely if we keep Mazarin). This might influence French colonial expansion later on.

 

[The Professor]

Interesting so far.
My gut feeling is that Louis would be married to Anne of Lorraine though he could initially be betrothed to Anna of Poland.

I'm wondering who Mary of England-Scotland would marry if William of Orange is married to Elisabeth.
Could we see her married to Prince George of Denmark as her sister was?
The lineage of that marriage could be interesting as it could forestall the personal union with Hannover and delay Parliament's ascendancy politically.
Who else would be eligible for Anne? Parliament would likely veto any Catholic husband unless he converted.

 

[Vitruvius]

I'm wondering who Mary of England-Scotland would marry if William of Orange is married to Elisabeth.
Could we see her married to Prince George of Denmark as her sister was?
The lineage of that marriage could be interesting as it could forestall the personal union with Hannover and delay Parliament's ascendancy politically.
Who else would be eligible for Anne? Parliament would likely veto any Catholic husband unless he converted.

We're actually one generation previous to that Mary. The Mary we're talking about here is Mary, Princess Royal, eldest daughter of Charles I. Queen Mary II and her sister Queen Anne were the daughters of Charles' second son James II, making them this Mary's nieces. Both Marys married a Prince of Orange in OTL. The first Mary married William II and her niece married their son William III (the one who became King William). That is part of the reason William III was joint King with Mary and later succeeded her, because he had a claim to the throne in his own right as daughter of the Princess Royal.

As for TTL Louis XIV Yorel put forth a lot of interesting ideas. I hadn't thought about TTL Louis' education but he's right. There would be a lot more direct influence from his father and perhaps less from his mother.

I'm intrigued by the prospect of a religious settlement in France. It seems like he's inevitably going to curtail the rights of the Huguenots as a matter of politics. But I wonder if the attacks might only be taken from the political angle. ie surrender your cities and special rights and you can keep practicing your faith in the privacy of your home. So brutal political suppression but maybe no forced conversion and subsequent emmigration of the Huguenots. Because if something like that happened it would have very significant affects on France.

And as to diplomacy. If the French neutralize the Dutch with a marriage to William II there's a good chance the Anglo-Dutch personal union will never happen and so the anti-French Grand Alliance may never materialize. This bodes well for France in many areas especially for a Bourbon Spain.

 

[The Professor]

We're actually one generation previous to that Mary. The Mary we're talking about here is Mary, Princess Royal, eldest daughter of Charles I. Queen Mary II and her sister Queen Anne were the daughters of Charles' second son James II, making them this Mary's nieces. Both Marys married a Prince of Orange in OTL. The first Mary married William II and her niece married their son William III (the one who became King William). That is part of the reason William III was joint King with Mary and later succeeded her, because he had a claim to the throne in his own right as daughter of the Princess Royal.

Ach dang it, of course .

So who would marry this Mary?
Count Valdemar Christian of Schleswig-Holstein could be a possibility.
What about the future Charles X Gustav of Sweden?
Are there any other Protestant Princes (Royal or otherwise) available.

As for TTL Louis XIV Yorel put forth a lot of interesting ideas. I hadn't thought about TTL Louis' education but he's right. There would be a lot more direct influence from his father and perhaps less from his mother.

I'm intrigued by the prospect of a religious settlement in France. It seems like he's inevitably going to curtail the rights of the Huguenots as a matter of politics. But I wonder if the attacks might only be taken from the political angle. ie surrender your cities and special rights and you can keep practicing your faith in the privacy of your home. So brutal political suppression but maybe no forced conversion and subsequent emmigration of the Huguenots. Because if something like that happened it would have very significant affects on France.

And as to diplomacy. If the French neutralize the Dutch with a marriage to William II there's a good chance the Anglo-Dutch personal union will never happen and so the anti-French Grand Alliance may never materialize. This bodes well for France in many areas especially for a Bourbon Spain.

A fairer French religious settlement would also meant that Philippe could marry Mary. We may see his heirs convert to marry Mary or Anne, thus denying the Jacobites French support.

Or could we see a second Commonwealth against an Irish Crown?

 

[Yorel]

We're actually one generation previous to that Mary. The Mary we're talking about here is Mary, Princess Royal, eldest daughter of Charles I. Queen Mary II and her sister Queen Anne were the daughters of Charles' second son James II, making them this Mary's nieces. Both Marys married a Prince of Orange in OTL. The first Mary married William II and her niece married their son William III (the one who became King William). That is part of the reason William III was joint King with Mary and later succeeded her, because he had a claim to the throne in his own right as daughter of the Princess Royal.

You mean son, right?

And I confirm we're talking about Mary II's aunt : Mary, Princess Royal and sister to both Charles II and James II. Have to admit it's pretty easy to confuse the two : both were Princess Royal at one point, both married a Prince of Orange named William and they have the same name themselves. Had I not checked (something seemed off), I would probably have confused the two myself.

Though, how plausible is a Danish prince for the Mary we're talking if William II of Orange weds Elisabeth of France?

And as to diplomacy. If the French neutralize the Dutch with a marriage to William II there's a good chance the Anglo-Dutch personal union will never happen and so the anti-French Grand Alliance may never materialize. This bodes well for France in many areas especially for a Bourbon Spain.

It's true France do seem in a better position in our scenario than it was OTL. Still have to look out for the Hapsburgs though.

 

[The Professor]

Looking up Princess Royal Mary, one of her early suitors was her cousin Charles Louis, the Elector Palatine.
If William of Orange is married to a French Princess then this match could be back on with interesting repercussions for the Palatinate and French expansion towards the Rhine.

 

[Vitruvius]

You mean son, right?

Aghh, Yes I meant son. I think I actually managed to confuse myself there for a minute with the all that genealogy, too many 'Mary who married' statements.

Looking up Princess Royal Mary, one of her early suitors was her cousin Charles Louis, the Elector Palatine.
If William of Orange is married to a French Princess then this match could be back on with interesting repercussions for the Palatinate and French expansion towards the Rhine.

That would be very interesting because it may mean the Palatine-Simmern (Electoral) line doesn't die out. And moreover the Elector Palatine could perhaps play the role of William III OTL, overthrowing James II and forming an alliance of anti-French powers albeit a slightly less effective one as the Palatinate doesn't have the resources of the Netherlands. It would also preclude the birth of Elizabeth Charlotte so she wouldn't even be a potential bride for Charles making the Henrietta of England more likely.

 

[Yorel]

Alright. I decided to make a little summary of what we discussed. I'm doing this to be sure we're okay with the details and because I'm hoping it will draw more people to this thread.

So, the POD was that the four children of Louis XIII and Anne of Austria were not stillborn, making them having six children instead of two. Here is what we concluded on what would happen to these children :

1.Louis, Dauphin de France (born on December 1619)
Would become King Louis XIV of France in 1643 at Age 24. He is going to be very different from OTL Sun King since he will likely have a different education, but also a different life. Will probably pursue the policies of his father and may pursue some of the Sun King's policies but not on the same scale (ergo, less Absolutism).
Possible wives : 1) Anne Catherine Vasa, daughter of King Sigismund III of Poland. This marriage could be a way of making Poland an ally, something useful considering Poland is a neigbor to Hapsburg Austria.
2) Anne of Lorraine, daughter of Duke Charles IV of Lorraine. This would be a way of strenghtening the ties between France and Lorraine, and maybe to integrate it into the Kingdom.

2. Marie, Madame Première* (born on March 14, 1622)
Possible husband : Philip William of Pfalz-Neuburg. Could be a way of drawing his family closer to France as they were neutral in the 30 years war. Mariage even more probable if his OTL wife (Anne Catherine Vasa) weds TTL Louis XIV.

3. Elisabeth, Madame Seconde* (born on 1626)
Possible husbands : 1) William II of Orange. This could be a way of drawing the Netherlands closer to France, which could be useful and good for the French. This would mean William II wouldn't wed Mary, Princess Royal, butterflying OTL William III of Orange (later William III of England).
2) Ferdinand III, Holy Roman Emperor. Elisabeth could become Ferdinand III's second wife thanks to a peace deal or a treaty.

4. Philippe, Duc d'Anjou (born on April 1631)
Would probably not receive the same education as OTL Philippe d'Orléans, although Louis XIII and Anne of Austria will try to avoid a new Gaston d'Orléans. Philippe will probably become Duc d'Orléans in 1660, upon his uncle's death.
Possible wives : 1) A daughter of Victor Amadeus I, Duke of Savoy. At the time, Savoy was an ally of France and pretty close to it. Plus, Victor Amadeus' wife, Christine Marie, is Louis XIII's sister.
2) A Hapsburg Princess. We evoked two cousins of Holy Roman Emperor Ferdinand III : Isabella Clara and Maria Leopoldine, daughters of Leopold V of Austria. They could be used in a deal between the Bourbons and Habsburg.
3) Mary, Princess Royal and daughter of Charles I of England. Less likely, but possible. If Mary doesn't wed Philippe and if she can't marry William II of Orange (because he married Elisabeth of France), we assumed her possible husband could be Charles Louis, Elector Palatine.

5. Henri, Duc de Berry (Born on September 5, 1638)
Might Swap Berry for Anjou when Philippe becomes Duc d'Orléans in 1660.
Possible wife : Maria Theresa of Spain. We concluded Henri could get the Spanish marriage that went to OTL Louis XIV. This would be interesting regarding the War of Spanish Succession : the Bourbon candidate (likely a son of Henri and Maria Theresa) would have less chances of getting the French throne, which could get him more support or at least less opposition.

6. Charles, Duc d'Alençon (Born on September 21, 1640)
Might Swap Alençon for Berry when Philippe becomes Duc d'Orléans and if Henri swaps Berry for Anjou.
Possible wives : 1) Henrietta, daughter of Charles I of England. Possible only if Henrietta's sister, Mary, doesn't wed Charles' older brother Philippe.
2) Elizabeth Charlotte, daughter of Charles Louis of the Palatinate. Possible only if she exists like OTL (she wouldn't in case Mary, Princess Royal were to wed Charles Louis of the Palatinate instead of William II of Orange).
3) A daughter of Francesco I of Modena or some other minor prince. Charles has a very low importance in the French succession, so he might not get a prestigious mariage like the two previous mentionned.

Nothing wrong with this?

*Not sure the Titles "Madame Première" or "Madame Seconde" would be used for Marie and Elisabeth. OTL, Louis XV's daughters were called this way as an usage of the French court (such as it was to call the King's brother Monsieur). But we're far earlier than Louis XV considering the POD.

 

[Vitruvius]

Nice summary. Everything looks good, just its Duke of Alençon not Count, since 1414 anyways. Are you planning on developing a full timeline with this? The more we discuss it the more I think there's some potential here for a very interesting timeline.

 

[Yorel]

Everything looks good, just its Duke of Alençon not Count, since 1414 anyways.

Fixed. Thanks for telling me. I'll admit I had a doubt : I remembered there were Counts of Alençon but I wasn't sure they had been made Dukes.

Are you planning on developing a full timeline with this? The more we discuss it the more I think there's some potential here for a very interesting timeline.

The timeline would indeed be interesting given the repercusions such a POD would have.

Don't know if I would be the one to do it though. It's not that I lack the motivation, but I'm a serial procastinator... Plus, I already have a timeline I started (with a Napoleonic POD) but haven't updated since the first post... it must have been two months ago.

But who knows? I might try to do this timeline in the end.

 

[The Professor]

A nice summary.

So in the future we have a possible House of Palatine ruling the UK and a Scuffle of the Spanish Succession.
It's all looking like a stronger France in the short term and a more Spanish Mediterranean.

Of course I'm ignoring the immediate results of what a possible different Peace of Westphalia could bring.
With Mazarin's influence weaker than OTL would the Peace still happen? Could *Louis XIV continue the war longer in order to get a better French deal?
Could this worse terms for France or even better?