Louis of Orléans (1372-1407) does not die

In 1407 the Louis, duke of Orléans, the brother of Charles VI of France, was murdered by the orders of the duke of Burgundy John the Fearless in the streets of Paris. The murder started the civil war between the Armagnacs and the Burgundians. But what if, by whatever reason, he avoids the assassination, or survives the attempt? What would be the consecuences in the history of France and Europe?
 
Either you have civil war anyway.

Or you don't have civil war because John the fearless is arrested, tried, condemned and beheaded.

Other option : all of John the Fearless french fiefs are confiscated and incorporated into the royal domain and no civil war.
 
Or you don't have civil war because John the fearless is arrested, tried, condemned and beheaded.

Other option : all of John the Fearless french fiefs are confiscated and incorporated into the royal domain and no civil war.

Can those things happen? I mean, can John the Fearless be arrested and the rest, and get their french fiefs consficated and incorporated to royal domain?

Either way, do anybody know what would or could be the consecuences in the Hundred Years War?
 
Can those things happen? I mean, can John the Fearless be arrested and the rest, and get their french fiefs consficated and incorporated to royal domain?

Either way, do anybody know what would or could be the consecuences in the Hundred Years War?

Is It materially possible ? Yes but John the fearless may anticipate It and flee before being arrested.

Is is politically feasible ? Absolutely. It happened OTL with the duke of Alençon, who was arrested and sentenced to death under king Louis XI, although finally not executed.

And the confiscation of fiefs held by felon vassals was a classic of the french kings. The most famous being the confiscation by Philip II Augustus of the fiefs held by John Lackland.
 
Is It materially possible ? Yes but John the fearless may anticipate It and flee before being arrested.

Is is politically feasible ? Absolutely. It happened OTL with the duke of Alençon, who was arrested and sentenced to death under king Louis XI, although finally not executed.

And the confiscation of fiefs held by felon vassals was a classic of the french kings. The most famous being the confiscation by Philip II Augustus of the fiefs held by John Lackland.

Well... we know (from insight) that it will be better for the monarchy to do this (arresting, trying and executing John and confiscated his lands in the kingdom), however, back time, it will not be so evident. John was pretty much very involved in the French politics. Doing that, you just cut half of the lands of one of your most powerful vassals which now held only lands outside of the kingdom, but in the mean time had a HUGE claim on his lost lands. Not to speak about the possibility to physically size those lands, which was out of the reach of the French government then (it was not for nothing that the Armagnacs and the Bourguignons fight each others... ).
So, if John the Fearless is arrested, executed and had his French lands confiscated... all you have is... not very much seized. Yah, maybe some of the lands will rebel against Philip the Good and declare their allegiance to the French crown... other might be conquered by the royal army (by the way, which royal army?) but nothing so drastic.

Both your examples are happened during the reign of exceptionally powerful kings which could and did exert power over their vassals and could and did seized lands from their vassals. Who will do this now? Charles VI? Charles VII? The Dauphin is nothing yet than a... 4 year old Dauphin...

So... the civil war will still happens, maybe even stronger and harder. And the English were there... "very there"....
 
Well... we know (from insight) that it will be better for the monarchy to do this (arresting, trying and executing John and confiscated his lands in the kingdom), however, back time, it will not be so evident. John was pretty much very involved in the French politics. Doing that, you just cut half of the lands of one of your most powerful vassals which now held only lands outside of the kingdom, but in the mean time had a HUGE claim on his lost lands. Not to speak about the possibility to physically size those lands, which was out of the reach of the French government then (it was not for nothing that the Armagnacs and the Bourguignons fight each others... ).
So, if John the Fearless is arrested, executed and had his French lands confiscated... all you have is... not very much seized. Yah, maybe some of the lands will rebel against Philip the Good and declare their allegiance to the French crown... other might be conquered by the royal army (by the way, which royal army?) but nothing so drastic.

Both your examples are happened during the reign of exceptionally powerful kings which could and did exert power over their vassals and could and did seized lands from their vassals. Who will do this now? Charles VI? Charles VII? The Dauphin is nothing yet than a... 4 year old Dauphin...

A clarification: at this point (1407) the future Charles VII had two older brothers: Louis, Dauphin and Duke of Guyenne (1397-1415) and Jean, Duke of Touraine (1398-1417).

So... the civil war will still happens, maybe even stronger and harder. And the English were there... "very there"....

If John the Fearless is arrested and executed (for trying to kill Louis of Orléans, I suppose), then his heir Philip the Good would be eleven years old (not very able to govern or defend his lands). And Louis of Orléans was a very strong ruler as regent of his brother, and in this TL he would be in a better position after executing his rival John the Fearless. The problem may be Paris, where the Burgundians were very strong.
 
A clarification: at this point (1407) the future Charles VII had two older brothers: Louis, Dauphin and Duke of Guyenne (1397-1415) and Jean, Duke of Touraine (1398-1417).

Uh... my bad... I forget about the two other brothers.. Well, they died young so I assumed that they never were.

If John the Fearless is arrested and executed (for trying to kill Louis of Orléans, I suppose), then his heir Philip the Good would be eleven years old (not very able to govern or defend his lands). And Louis of Orléans was a very strong ruler as regent of his brother, and in this TL he would be in a better position after executing his rival John the Fearless. The problem may be Paris, where the Burgundians were very strong.

Still... the civil war will happens. Louis of Orleans will need to conquer most of those lands he decreed that they are confiscated by the crown...
 
Uh... my bad... I forget about the two other brothers.. Well, they died young so I assumed that they never were.



Still... the civil war will happens. Louis of Orleans will need to conquer most of those lands he decreed that they are confiscated by the crown...

Why not ? The french monarchy was far more powerful in 1407 than It was in 1202-1204 when Philip Augustus seized the most important Plantagenet fiefs.

There will be armed resistance, of course.
 
The monarchy yes, but the king not... :)

But if the regent is someone like Louis of Orléans...

I wonder, if the french fiefs of John the Fearless are seized, what would happen with Flanders? It was mostly french, but there was also a part which was part of the Holy Roman Empire. Would it have been partitioned, or what?
 
But if the regent is someone like Louis of Orléans...

I wonder, if the french fiefs of John the Fearless are seized, what would happen with Flanders? It was mostly french, but there was also a part which was part of the Holy Roman Empire. Would it have been partitioned, or what?

The flaemish militaires Will of course support their count or revolt against the king. And the king of England Will support them.

No Matter avoir the part that belonged to the HRE. There was no power in the HRE to oppose the power of the Kingdomof France.
 
The flaemish militaires Will of course support their count or revolt against the king. And the king of England Will support them.

No Matter avoir the part that belonged to the HRE. There was no power in the HRE to oppose the power of the Kingdomof France.

So the french monarchy seizes Burgundy, Charolais, Flanders and Artois, leaving only the Franche Comté to Philip the Good. There will not be much organized resistance if Philip the Good is eleven or twelve years old, but as you say, there will be revolts. All this will have consecuences in the HYW, as the french would be more united and able to face the english when, in 1415, Henry V decides to invade France (if he do it at all). That would mean a much earlier end of the HYW, and a France dominated by OTL Armagnac party, ITTL Orleanist party.

Another option, that we have not contemplated, is that for whatever reason John the Fearless decides not to kill Louis of Orléans (because he has less support, for example).
 
Top