Louis I of Scotland?

What if when Louis XI of France marries Margaret, daughter of James I of Scotland, they hit it off really well? Suppose she supports his schemes and plots rather than, as far as I can tell, supporting his father habitually in arguments between the two? I was thinking, and writing, that when he fled to Burgundy under Philip the Good he might instead flee to Scotland and become Prince Consort of Margaret, Sneaky Queen of Scots as well as Louis XI, the Spider King of France. Their son would be Lewis I of Scotland and Louis XII of France. By all accounts Louis XI was a very good Battle tactician and intriguer and I think it could be a very intriguing departure from Our Timeline. Anyone agree with me?
 
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Scottish royalty works like English, not French. Margaret would be King and Louis would be Prince Consort with no regnal rights. Therefore he wouldn't get to be Louis I, even if Margaret died with or without children.
 
Thanks! I'll keep that in mind. Even as a Prince Consort though he would be a formidable asset I'd think. So would you want to see this TL written?
 
That'll mean no union, which means once we do our colonisation attempt no one can bail us out and Scotland will descend into a spiral of horror.
 
I'd be interesting, but I can't see Louis renouncing his rights to the French throne to play second fiddle to his wife in Scotland. Technically he couldn't, either. Margaret also had a brother, but considering James I only had one son who survived into adulthood, that could be butterflied away, making Margaret the clear successor.

Assuming the Dauphin/Dauphine get along as you're suggesting, it could be a mighty alliance. Both would stress in maintaining the Auld Alliance, so perhaps some increased troop commitment to the French during the lean years where it seemed likely for Charles VII to lose his throne. I could also plausibly see the duo fleeing to Scotland instead of Burgundy -- could also be perfectly timed where James I dies not long after the duo's arrival. When Charles VII dies, that's where things get complicated: the Duke of Berry is going to know of his father's death and get to Paris before the news even reaches Scotland... but Louis, the spider king, accepting that? I doubt it. I could see him setting sail to France with Scottish troops (with Margaret's blessing, of course) to take his throne. Toss in the English renewing their invasions of France during these troubled times, you set the stage for a messy alternate 1450s...

I'd be interested in seeing what you come up with. :)
 
That'll mean no union, which means once we do our colonisation attempt no one can bail us out and Scotland will descend into a spiral of horror.

Getting a bit ahead of ourselves, methinks. Yeah, certain conditions which contributed to the failure of darien will still exist, but others (such as an entire nation taking leave of it's senses) probably won't, and in any case a 15th century POD probably butterflies away that particular scheme...
 
Thanks for the comments!
Yes I'm thinking the Spider King may want to sit on both thrones once he knows his father is dead. Also yes, the way I'm thinking there won't be a James II to contend with. He was/would be only 7 when the two get married. He could easily not have lived to adulthood. If he gets to Scotland and starts showing tactical brilliance on the field I think he would garner some loyalty. Especially if Margaret is the heir and clearly approves of him. I am also planning for them to have children. A son first.

If the two of them are solidly on their thrones in Scotland when Charles VII's health enters it's final decline then they might show up in France second but with a better force behind them. That is if Louis has kept a hand in, as it were, and has some allies on the continent. I'll try to firm up a timeline for this and post it since it seems I'm not alone in my interest. :D I'm thinking Charles the Bold may be an ally among others. Stay tuned! :)
 
I'd be interested to see what you were planning with this, but I have my doubts over whether even a tactical wizard would be likely to achieve anything with Scotland. I mean, his prospects are basically attacking England, and at this point, even if Scotland attacks unexpected and makes early progress, by now the English were strong enough and had full use of the longbowmen as well as plentiful men and the economic strength, and it would be a matter of time before the backlash hit the Scots and they were badly punished.

That said, if you can find another theatre for Louis to use his talents in, I'd be happy to follow the TL.
 
Okay this is what I have so far. I'll expand on it while writing of course.
Please be nice when pointing out any errors although I DO want to know about them.
Also I was thinking of having Louis I of Scotland marry the Daughter of the Earl of Kildare, getting the Irish into the act but worry that might be reaching a bit too far. I've heard that by the 15th century the earls of Kildare, Desmond and Ormonde control between them almost the whole of southern Ireland. The exception is the area immediately round Dublin, known as the pale, where English rule prevails under the lord deputy, a representative of the king.


1423 Louis de Valois, who would be Louis XI, the Spider King, was born.

1424 Margaret Stewart is born in Dec. and is given in marriage to the 13 year old Louis, Duc d’Anjou, and 9th Dauphin on 24 June 1436. Instead of casual clothes he wears his finest and takes the time to talk to her making a good impression on the like minded Margaret.

1437 Assassination attempt on James I is unsuccessful unlike in OTL. James takes the hint and stops trying to centralize power. He lives another seventeen years until 1454.

1439 At sixteen Louis is sent by his father to direct the defense of Languedoc against the English, and to put down the brigandage in Poitou, he succeeds with the covert help and advice of his wife who has been creating an intelligence web of her own devising but his full knowledge and endorsement. He learns that the nobles will want him to try to become regent supplanting his father but she shows him that the troops are insufficient for the task. He refuses their offer but doesn’t betray them to the king. He does blackmail them to help fund the intelligence web.

1441 Fighting the English with help of some of his wife’s countrymen.

1443 At twenty aided his father to suppress the revolt of the count of Armagnac. He comes home to find his wife pregnant with his son whom he names Louis after himself.

1444 A.D. He led an army of from 20,000 mercenaries and brigands against the Swiss of the canton of Basel. The heroism of some two hundred Swiss, who for a while held thousands of the French army at bay, made a great impression on the young prince. After an ineffective siege of Basel, he made peace with the Swiss confederation, and led his soldiers into Alsace to ravage the country of the Habsburgs, who refused him the promised winter quarters. I’m thinking he takes a fair bit of loot and takes some of the more disciplined and effective mercenaries into his service in his territory. Margaret would be dead this year in OTL of a fever but instead lives on in this TL. Her brother James, who became James II of Scotland in OTL dies instead at fourteen. James I is still king, not having been assassinated.

1444-1453 In these intervening years they retire to the Dauphine, his hereditary territory in the southeast of France, and start running it as if it were an autonomous kingdom. He comes to understanding with the Swiss and gets the local nobles firmly on his side or under his thumb. Louis and Margaret set out to govern his principality as though it were an independent state. He dismissed the governor; he determined advantageously to himself the boundaries between his state and the territories of the duke of Savoy and of the papacy; and he enforced his authority over perhaps the most unruly nobility in Western Europe, both lay and ecclesiastical. The right of private warfare was abolished; the bishops were obliged to give up most of their temporal jurisdiction, the scope of their courts was limited, and appeals to Rome were curtailed. On the other hand, Louis granted privileges to the towns and consistently used their alliance to overthrow the nobility. He watched the roads, built new ones, opened markets, protected the only bankers of the country, the Jews, and reorganized the administration so as to draw the utmost revenue possible from the prosperity thus secured. Charles VII starts worrying that the people like his bright and ambitious son better than he and he starts planning a Royal procession to the city Louis has made his home. It is a thinly disguised attempt to bring a large number of troops with him when he requires Louis come back to court. Charles comes to visit his son sooner than in OTL but Louis has a very similar reaction. It is clear to both Louis and Margaret that he is worried about a coup and even though they do not plan one, they do not want to take chances on Royal Mercy so they flee to her father in Scotland.

1453 They flee to Scotland where shortly after they arrive James I dies and Margaret becomes Queen. Her brother James has already been dead some years of disease. Louis is Prince Consort and now that he is “the power behind the throne” sets his formidable will to expanding his own intelligence apparatus. He squashes all rumors about the coincidental nature of the king’s death the year after they arrive and builds goodwill both in secret and in public as he is also her general and his battle plans in case of English attack are widely considered genius.

1461 He gets word that Charles VII is dying and that his brother will get to Paris first. He arranges for riots and public condemnation to delay the coronation. Meanwhile he gathers an army of Scots and mercenaries and sets sail leaving his son to watch out for his mother’s interests in Scotland. Charles the Bold is one of his allies in the endeavor. He arrives in Paris after his father’s death but his planned diversions have kept Charles, Duc de Berry from assuming the throne. Agents provocateur has spread rumors and suspicions about the king dying so soon after the Duc de Berry’s arrival in Paris. He settles the unrest, crowns himself king, and has his brother imprisoned on suspicion of treason and regicide. After he and his troops have secured Paris he names his eighteen year old son the tenth Dauphin and proclaims he will be king of both Scotland and France.
After a somewhat biased trial he executes his brother in public before the crowd.
 
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Obviously this won't make the English happy and they'll start planning to throw "the French" out of Scotland even though Queen Margaret isn't French herself. I'm thinking this is when the now adult son is married off to the daughter of the eighth Earl of Kildare or possibly Desmond and crowned King of Ireland.

Louis, the Spider King will be planning for the war with England he knows will come and the Earl of Kildare and his people will be planning to hit the English at Dublin while they are busy with France and Scotland. From what I have been able to determine the English were not very thick on the ground and that 15th Century Dublin was their main if not only stronghold.

If attacked there as well from Scotland and France with reasonable simultaneity I think the English monarch would be willing to sign a treaty giving up claim to either Scotland or Ireland although probably not until after a few years of warfare.What do you folks think?
 
Hmmm. Interesting. A few points.

1444-1453 In these intervening years they retire to the Dauphine, his hereditary territory in the southeast of France, and start running it as if it were an autonomous kingdom. He comes to understanding with the Swiss and gets the local nobles firmly on his side or under his thumb. Louis and Margaret set out to govern his principality as though it were an independent state. He dismissed the governor; he determined advantageously to himself the boundaries between his state and the territories of the duke of Savoy and of the papacy; and he enforced his authority over perhaps the most unruly nobility in Western Europe, both lay and ecclesiastical.

Hmm...Mostly your TL I like but there are a few things here. Firstly, the dealings with the Swiss. For a start, Savoy is in the way, but then you mentioned redressing the borders, so OK. Then there's the fact that the Swiss Confederacy exists as a protest to Hapsburg domination of the area. If by "under his thumb" you mean they become firm allies then fine, but if you're suggesting a kind of political vassalage then I can't agree - a group of states which are attempting to secede from one organisation because they are being dominated do not readily accept domination from someone else instead, no matter how silver-tongued.

Then there's the bits about redressing the borders. Perfectly fine with Savoy as long as he's happy to do it via war or bargaining. Savoy isn't likely to just cower from a clenched fist and sign over vast portions of their north-western territory though. As for taking land from Avignon...that's very, very ambitious. Methinks Louis has just earned himself a Papal excommunication and a lot, a lot of political hassling, as well as the ire of several large European adversaries. People didn't tend to get away with bullying the Popes unless they had the military might to back up their actions on a large scale.

On a final note, about him protecting the Jews...seems a little anachronistic, but whatever. My main concern, however, is I believe the Jews have already been expelled and bringing them back isn't a step taken lightly in this era.


Louis, the Spider King will be planning for the war with England he knows will come and the Earl of Kildare and his people will be planning to hit the English at Dublin while they are busy with France and Scotland. From what I have been able to determine the English were not very thick on the ground and that 15th Century Dublin was their main if not only stronghold.

If attacked there as well from Scotland and France with reasonable simultaneity I think the English monarch would be willing to sign a treaty giving up claim to either Scotland or Ireland although probably not until after a few years of warfare.What do you folks think?

English control of Ireland was limited to the Pale, yes. Dublin was about their only proper stronghold. As for a war with England...it largely depends on what happens. England had experience in fighting France and Scotland simultaneously, remember; crossing the Channel is still a tough challenge for the French; and the Earl of Kildare will probably resent being a Franco-Scots puppet as much as an English one - he'll settle for a peace independently. In addition, England has Papal support for its control of Ireland, so it may abandon it but it wouldn't sign away rights easily. However, abandoning claims to Scotland is something they'd more than happily do - they did it several times OTL, only to resurrect claims when situations better suited a few generations later. More likely the French go after Calais, anyway.

They could still do damage to England, and of course the French connection would seriously bug England, and could pose a major threat over time.

Wouldn't he be Lewis or something instead of Louis? Afterall, Louis is French.

To the Scots, yes.




My own major idea in this is that England is likely to try to revive an alliance with the Burgundians, right before the end of the Burgundian line. If England can persuade Charles that the French are the bigger enemy and either end or postpone the Burgundian wars with Switzerland, the Burgundian line can be saved and then if the Burgundians wade into the war then it's a serious game on. Interestingly it would most likely also set Burgundy up for achieving its Kingdom status.
 
By "under his thumb" I meant firm allies perhaps with a bit of bribery or blackmail thrown in. Carrot and stick used or following him because they thought he was the best option. However most of this is not thought up by me it's what actually happened. I checked three sources which I do not have handy where I am now. When I'm home I could link to the online ones and dig up the print book if you like. All I really changed about this period is Margaret being dead and Louis remarrying.


Hmmm. Interesting. A few points.


Hmm...Mostly your TL I like but there are a few things here. Firstly, the dealings with the Swiss. For a start, Savoy is in the way, but then you mentioned redressing the borders, so OK. Then there's the fact that the Swiss Confederacy exists as a protest to Hapsburg domination of the area. If by "under his thumb" you mean they become firm allies then fine, but if you're suggesting a kind of political vassalage then I can't agree - a group of states which are attempting to secede from one organisation because they are being dominated do not readily accept domination from someone else instead, no matter how silver-tongued.

Then there's the bits about redressing the borders. Perfectly fine with Savoy as long as he's happy to do it via war or bargaining. Savoy isn't likely to just cower from a clenched fist and sign over vast portions of their north-western territory though. As for taking land from Avignon...that's very, very ambitious. Methinks Louis has just earned himself a Papal excommunication and a lot, a lot of political hassling, as well as the ire of several large European adversaries. People didn't tend to get away with bullying the Popes unless they had the military might to back up their actions on a large scale.

He actually did take land from Avignon IRL or should I say OTL. The Duke of Savoy required him to marry his daughter so I do need a new motivation there but from what I read he redrew borders with Avignon mainly on Chutzpah and the threat of his military.

On a final note, about him protecting the Jews...seems a little anachronistic, but whatever. My main concern, however, is I believe the Jews have already been expelled and bringing them back isn't a step taken lightly in this era.

I'll doublecheck this but as I said above I altered very little of his actions in that period from OTL. Of course if he is forced to marry his son to Savoy's daughter that would put a crimp in things with the Earl but if Margaret hadn't died young of a fever she might have had several kids and then we'd have one to marry into the Duke's family and one to marry into the Earl's but you caveats are well taken and shall be addressed.


English control of Ireland was limited to the Pale, yes. Dublin was about their only proper stronghold. As for a war with England...it largely depends on what happens. England had experience in fighting France and Scotland simultaneously, remember; crossing the Channel is still a tough challenge for the French; and the Earl of Kildare will probably resent being a Franco-Scots puppet as much as an English one - he'll settle for a peace independently. In addition, England has Papal support for its control of Ireland, so it may abandon it but it wouldn't sign away rights easily. However, abandoning claims to Scotland is something they'd more than happily do - they did it several times OTL, only to resurrect claims when situations better suited a few generations later. More likely the French go after Calais, anyway.

They could still do damage to England, and of course the French connection would seriously bug England, and could pose a major threat over time.


My own major idea in this is that England is likely to try to revive an alliance with the Burgundians, right before the end of the Burgundian line. If England can persuade Charles that the French are the bigger enemy and either end or postpone the Burgundian wars with Switzerland, the Burgundian line can be saved and then if the Burgundians wade into the war then it's a serious game on. Interestingly it would most likely also set Burgundy up for achieving its Kingdom status.

The Burgundian connection is an interesting one. We might end up with a surviving Burgundy and a Scotland that is not part of the British Empire. Fun!
As foir Papal support for control of Ireland, I was thinking perhaps one Catholic country might be as acceptable as another? But then if he was leaning on Avignon recently that doesn't seem very likely does it. Well I got Ireland involved as a third point of stress on England because yes, it does have experience in fighting Scotland and France at the same time. So if not Ireland then whom? Any ideas?
Perhaps if Margaret has a son and a daughter the son could marry in to the house of Savoy and the daughter could marry Charles the Bold? If he got into the act on the side of the Capetian Dynasty it would tip things in their favor and might help Burgundy too in the long run. If they redirect him away from war with Switzerland (Whom Louis XI respected having fought then earlier) and towards England perhaps we would get a Burgundy with staying power.
 
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Perhaps just an agreement with the Earl of Kildare?
We'll attack at this time. If you want to attack Dublin this would be a good time since the English will have other worries at the time.
 
Maybe a treaty with King Christian I of Denmark, Sweden, Norway and etc?
In 1460 he issued the edict proclaiming himself Count of Holstein and Duke of Schleswig. Maybe he'd be willing to shake loose a few Norsemen and ships in exchange for recognition of his claim from France and Scotland? Well in addition to other things perhaps such as all the English loot they could carry while the English were busy with the Wars of the Roses, the Scots, the French, and the Irish?

Or is that reaching a bit too far?
 
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Revised with the advice of my ally in historical hijinks, Todyo1798

1423 Louis de Valois, who would be Louis XI, the Spider King, was born.

1424 Margaret Stewart is born in Dec. and is given in marriage to the 13 year old Louis, Duc d’Anjou, and 9th Dauphin on 24 June 1436. Instead of casual clothes he wears his finest and takes the time to talk to her making a good impression on the like minded Margaret.

1437 Assassination attempt on James I is unsuccessful unlike in OTL. James takes the hint and stops trying to centralize power. He lives another seventeen years until 1454.

1439 At sixteen Louis is sent by his father to direct the defense of Languedoc against the English, and to put down the brigandage in Poitou, he succeeds with the covert help and advice of his wife who has been creating an intelligence web of her own devising but his full knowledge and endorsement. He learns that the nobles will want him to try to become regent supplanting his father but she shows him that the troops are insufficient for the task. He refuses their offer but doesn’t betray them to the king. He does blackmail them to help fund the intelligence web.

1441 Fighting the English with help of some of his wife’s countrymen.

1443 At twenty aided his father to suppress the revolt of the count of Armagnac. He comes home to find his wife pregnant with his son whom he names Louis after himself.

1444 A.D. He led an army of from 20,000 mercenaries and brigands against the Swiss of the canton of Basel. The heroism of some two hundred Swiss, who for a while held thousands of the French army at bay, made a great impression on the young prince. After an ineffective siege of Basel, he made peace with the Swiss confederation, and led his soldiers into Alsace to ravage the country of the Habsburgs, who refused him the promised winter quarters. I’m thinking he takes a fair bit of loot and takes some of the more disciplined and effective mercenaries into his service in his territory. Margaret would be dead this year in OTL of a fever but instead lives on in this TL. Her brother James, who became James II of Scotland in OTL dies instead at fourteen. James I is still king, not having been assassinated.

1444-1453 In these intervening years they retire to the Dauphine, his hereditary territory in the southeast of France, and start running it as if it were an autonomous kingdom. He comes to understanding with the Swiss whom he respects and gets the local nobles firmly on his side by one means or another. in this period he has two more children with Margaret. They are named Charles and Mary.

Dec 1444 Charles is born to Margaret on the Louis’ estate in the Dauphine.
Louis and Margaret set out to govern his principality as though it were an independent state. He dismissed the governor; he determined advantageously to himself the boundaries between his state and the territories of the duke of Savoy and of the papacy; and he enforced his authority over perhaps the most unruly nobility in Western Europe, both lay and ecclesiastical. The right of private warfare was abolished; the bishops were obliged to give up most of their temporal jurisdiction, the scope of their courts was limited, and appeals to Rome were curtailed. On the other hand, Louis granted privileges to the towns and consistently used their alliance to overthrow the nobility. He watched the roads, built new ones, opened markets, protected the only bankers of the country, the Jews, and reorganized the administration so as to draw the utmost revenue possible from the prosperity thus secured.

1446 Margaret gives birth to her third child whom she names Mary.

1452. He marries his younger son to the eight year old daughter of the Duke of Savoy. He does this to seal a secret treaty with the duke of Savoy which was to give him right of way to Genoa, and make arrangements for a partition of the duchy of Milan.

1453 Charles VII starts worrying that the people like his bright and ambitious son better than he and he starts planning a Royal procession to the city Louis has made his home. It is a thinly disguised attempt to bring a large number of troops with him when he requires Louis come back to court. Charles comes to visit his son sooner than in OTL but Louis has a very similar reaction. It is clear to both Louis and Margaret that he is worried about a coup and even though they do not plan one, they do not want to take chances on Royal Mercy so they flee to her father in Scotland.

They flee to Scotland where shortly after they arrive James I dies and Margaret becomes Queen. Her brother James has already been dead some years of disease. Louis is Prince Consort and now that he is “the power behind the throne” sets his formidable will to expanding his own intelligence apparatus. He squashes all rumors about the coincidental nature of the king’s death the year after they arrive and builds goodwill both in secret and in public as he is also her general and his battle plans in case of English attack are widely considered genius. He would command during whatever small skirmishes or border incidents there were if possible.

Also in this year:
July 17 1st battle at Castillon: French beat English troops
July 23 Battle at Gavere: Philip the Good beats Gentse rebellion
October 19 2nd Battle at Castillon: France beats English, end of hundred year war

1454 Margaret gives birth to her fourth and last child, a daughter she names Anne.
(obviously this means last child to live long enough to make any history. The unfortunate truth is that all too many children did not survive in this century. It is likely that were others as well as possible miscarriages but I won't refer to them after this. I just wanted you all to know it was because of squeamishness rather than ignorance.)

1461 He gets word that Charles VII is dying and that his brother will get to Paris first. He arranges for riots and public condemnation to delay the coronation. Meanwhile he gathers an army of Scots and mercenaries and sets sail leaving his son to watch out for his mother’s interests in Scotland. Charles the Bold is one of his allies in the endeavor. He arrives in Paris after his father’s death but his planned diversions have kept Charles, Duc de Berry from assuming the throne. Agents provocateur has spread rumors and suspicions about the king dying so soon after the Duc de Berry’s arrival in Paris. He settles the unrest, crowns himself king, and has his brother imprisoned on suspicion of treason and regicide. After he and his troops have secured Paris he names his eighteen year old son the tenth Dauphin and proclaims he will be king of both Scotland and France.
After a somewhat biased trial he executes his brother in public before the crowd.

1462 Louis XI is considering dynastic Marriages. At eighteen his elder son has been a bachelor much longer than he. He considers possible marriages for his other daughter as well.
 
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1463 Louis sends French troops to help his son beat off a British attack. His spies had warned him in time and the weather cooperated. The British send him a note stating that if the proposed marriage between his son and the daughter of the 8th Earl of Kildare goes through and the younger Louis gets crowned king there they will consider it an act of war.

Tension mounts in both British and French colonies and possessions as the two countries move closer to war. Louis XI sends a response that he will not tell the Irish whom to crown but expects the Earl to become King soon. He also sends a letter to Margaret of Anjou, former wife of Henry VI, but just then the deposed Lancastrian Queen that he will support her bid to get back the throne for her child if she gives up Calais, and all claim to Scotland.
 
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Strictly speaking it would be Lewis I, or in the less commonly given Scots Gaelic Leodhas I.
While he's in Scotland yes. :)
Of course his dad will still spell it and think of it as Louis and probably as Louis XII but the Scots would indeed speak of him as Lewis I or Leodhas so I suppose I should alter the title of the thread.
Which it seems I am unable to do. :(
The alternate spellings will help me keep them straight in my head and writing though. :)
 
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