Louis, Duke of Guyenne survives

John the Fearless was quite ambivalent. Yes there is a lot of tension between the two groups and yes to see the armagnacs slaughtered would have been quite pleasant for him. BUT french, even burgundians, DO not like english. Remember that his own father was popular because as a young boy, he was very brave at poitiers. And if he didn't officially sent reinforcements at Agincourt, he didn't forbade his men to go there either. And his brother died at agincourt.

Indeed very true, still Louis will have his work cut out for him, especially if Henry V advances as rapidly as he did otl
 
Indeed very true, still Louis will have his work cut out for him, especially if Henry V advances as rapidly as he did otl
No need to be in a hurry for Louis. If he acts like Charles V, he just have to wait. English come, take Harfleur ( they need a good harbor for a future invasion which, in OTL, occured in 1417), then retreat in a hurry because they are sick, they have no food and they haven't the numbers. They want to get to calais and then, back to england. Henry never wanted a battle and after Agincourt, he was like "WTF just happened". So Louis waits with an army in Rouen, let the english exhausting themselves in a hostile country. And then besieges Harfleur. At the end of the day, the english have fought for nothing and Henry has to explain to the Parliament why he has spent so much money for that. It could down his ambitions, at least for a while
 
No need to be in a hurry for Louis. If he acts like Charles V, he just have to wait. English come, take Harfleur ( they need a good harbor for a future invasion which, in OTL, occured in 1417), then retreat in a hurry because they are sick, they have no food and they haven't the numbers. They want to get to calais and then, back to england. Henry never wanted a battle and after Agincourt, he was like "WTF just happened". So Louis waits with an army in Rouen, let the english exhausting themselves in a hostile country. And then besieges Harfleur. At the end of the day, the english have fought for nothing and Henry has to explain to the Parliament why he has spent so much money for that. It could down his ambitions, at least for a while

Hmm indeed, that is of course if Louis is able to resist the urge to make a move immediately.
 
Hmm indeed, that is of course if Louis is able to resist the urge to make a move immediately.
He surely can. And remember, even if he decides to go to agincourt, then the french have something they lacked in OTL: unity in command. BUT also remembers that in our OTL, if Louis wasn't at agincourt, it was because Jean de Berry decided so. He didn't want a second Poitiers, when you lose a king and his son. Again, old memories.
 
He surely can. And remember, even if he decides to go to agincourt, then the french have something they lacked in OTL: unity in command. BUT also remembers that in our OTL, if Louis wasn't at agincourt, it was because Jean de Berry decided so. He didn't want a second Poitiers, when you lose a king and his son. Again, old memories.

Indeed not, so Agincourt still happens as otl, what happens afterward could be up in the air. I think it would be interesting to see Aquitaine carved into a seperate Kingdom again.
 
Indeed not, so Agincourt still happens as otl, what happens afterward could be up in the air. I think it would be interesting to see Aquitaine carved into a seperate Kingdom again.
France would never accept that. Since Charles V, all the french lawyers have developped a theory: Sovereignty. This theory is litteraly engraved in the brain of every french prince and intellectuals. Even the relatively burgudian Sorbonne would support this. Even John the Fearless would fight for this. In their political culture, the king is sovereign in his kingdom. Period. He can give apanages and fiefs (you see this with all the duchies) which have some autonomy but no more. The possibility of a separate kingdom in Aquitaine doesn't even exist in the mind of these men. They cannot imagine that. This is all the tragedy of the hundred years war. The french agreed do give some lands to the english kings, but at the condition that he would be a vassal for these very lands, like a duke of anjou or Brittany. If Henry does this political mistake, creating a Aquitaine english puppet or annexing it to his kingdom, the french will be like Churchill: " we shall never surrender". And at the end of the end, a country of 3 millions cannot prevail against a 15 one
 
France would never accept that. Since Charles V, all the french lawyers have developped a theory: Sovereignty. This theory is litteraly engraved in the brain of every french prince and intellectuals. Even the relatively burgudian Sorbonne would support this. Even John the Fearless would fight for this. In their political culture, the king is sovereign in his kingdom. Period. He can give apanages and fiefs (you see this with all the duchies) which have some autonomy but no more. The possibility of a separate kingdom in Aquitaine doesn't even exist in the mind of these men. They cannot imagine that. This is all the tragedy of the hundred years war. The french agreed do give some lands to the english kings, but at the condition that he would be a vassal for these very lands, like a duke of anjou or Brittany. If Henry does this political mistake, creating a Aquitaine english puppet or annexing it to his kingdom, the french will be like Churchill: " we shall never surrender". And at the end of the end, a country of 3 millions cannot prevail against a 15 one

Very true, though could they do as happened at Bretigny, and rule Aquitaine as a Lord independent of French control, or have those days gone?
 
Very true, though could they do as happened at Bretigny, and rule Aquitaine as a Lord independent of French control, or have those days gone?
those days are definitively gone. Even ten agincourt would not convince the french to give up. Besides, the armagnacs are close. All these merceneries, all these captains of little units would fight a partisan war. Men like la Hire or Poton de Xaintrailles ( perhaps the most famous and loyal captains of Joan of Arc) would fight like lions because this is their land. And these men had a justified reputation to never give up. La Hire fight in Burgudian Picardy for 20 years with only a few hundred man against the burgudians and the english. And you know what? He practically won. Imagine his reaction, he, a devout armagnac then royalist, if english invade his country?
 
those days are definitively gone. Even ten agincourt would not convince the french to give up. Besides, the armagnacs are close. All these merceneries, all these captains of little units would fight a partisan war. Men like la Hire or Poton de Xaintrailles ( perhaps the most famous and loyal captains of Joan of Arc) would fight like lions because this is their land. And these men had a justified reputation to never give up. La Hire fight in Burgudian Picardy for 20 years with only a few hundred man against the burgudians and the english. And you know what? He practically won. Imagine his reaction, he, a devout armagnac then royalist, if english invade his country?

Indeed very true
 
How does this sound for Louis and Margaret's children:

Louis XI of France (b. 1397) m Margaret of Burgundy (b.1394)

Children: Philip, Dauphin of Viennois (b. 1417)

John (b. 1419)

Catherine (b. 1422)

Isabella (b. 1425)

Louis (b. 1429)
 
How does this sound for Louis and Margaret's children:

Louis XI of France (b. 1397) m Margaret of Burgundy (b.1394)

Children: Philip, Dauphin of Viennois (b. 1417)

John (b. 1419)

Catherine (b. 1422)

Isabella (b. 1425)

Louis (b. 1429)
first he would be a good thing that Louis actually "frequents" his wife. The people of Paris ( burgudians) often blamed ( with reason) that the heir neglected his wife. He didn't see her very much, sleept with her even less and actually loved a pretty young lady named "la Cassinnelle" who was at the Hotel of the queen Isabeau. He even created a gonfanon (personal flag) with a big "K" ( for cassinnelle) on it. But yes, a child in 1417 is plausible.
 
Oh intresting, now that's something I've not heard before. What role would his brother John play do you think?
 
Oh intresting, now that's something I've not heard before. What role would his brother John play do you think?
John de Touraine is quite not the interesting fellow. But his wife was Jacqueline de Hainaut, married in 1409. Since that time, he lived at the Court of the countess of Hainaut. And who is the countess of hainaut? Marguerite de Bourgogne, John the fearless' sister... The John was until his death pratically considered as a sleeve's ace for the Burgundians. Just imagine, a young boy exclusively educated by the burgundians... quite potentially partial dude.
 
John de Touraine is quite not the interesting fellow. But his wife was Jacqueline de Hainaut, married in 1409. Since that time, he lived at the Court of the countess of Hainaut. And who is the countess of hainaut? Marguerite de Bourgogne, John the fearless' sister... The John was until his death pratically considered as a sleeve's ace for the Burgundians. Just imagine, a young boy exclusively educated by the burgundians... quite potentially partial dude.
sorry for the mistakes
 
John de Touraine is quite not the interesting fellow. But his wife was Jacqueline de Hainaut, married in 1409. Since that time, he lived at the Court of the countess of Hainaut. And who is the countess of hainaut? Marguerite de Bourgogne, John the fearless' sister... The John was until his death pratically considered as a sleeve's ace for the Burgundians. Just imagine, a young boy exclusively educated by the burgundians... quite potentially partial dude.

Potential game of thrones here then?
 
Even G.R.R Martin would have a headache with all this mess. I'm sorry Cersei, Daenerys and all the others but the armagnac/Burgundian war is totally an epic mess

That in itself could breed strife that the English could try to take advantage of
 
That in itself could breed strife that the English could try to take advantage of
Perhaps. But as you suggested in the first place, if Louis de Guyenne survived, France is basically in a far better position. During the years 1414 and 1415, he has become a more and more politically autonomous prince. That's why he wasn't very popular among the armagnacs. Even if Agincourt occured ITTL, it can be a blessing for him. With all the armagnacs leaders dead or captured, there is only Jean de Berry, Charles d'armagnac and Louis to take the lead. But Jean de Berry was old, 75 years old, and he refused in OTL to rule the Armagnacs and give the power to Charles d'Armagnac. But if Louis plays nice with his uncle, he can take the lead. Jean de Berry was a verry intelligent politician, but also very avid and cupid. If Louis gives him the goverment of the Kingdom's finances ( just for one year) he officially had, the old uncle could be friendlier. With that, Louis, after Jean de Berry's death, would have the legitimacy, the money and the army. Quite a potiential juggernaut.
 
Perhaps. But as you suggested in the first place, if Louis de Guyenne survived, France is basically in a far better position. During the years 1414 and 1415, he has become a more and more politically autonomous prince. That's why he wasn't very popular among the armagnacs. Even if Agincourt occured ITTL, it can be a blessing for him. With all the armagnacs leaders dead or captured, there is only Jean de Berry, Charles d'armagnac and Louis to take the lead. But Jean de Berry was old, 75 years old, and he refused in OTL to rule the Armagnacs and give the power to Charles d'Armagnac. But if Louis plays nice with his uncle, he can take the lead. Jean de Berry was a verry intelligent politician, but also very avid and cupid. If Louis gives him the goverment of the Kingdom's finances ( just for one year) he officially had, the old uncle could be friendlier. With that, Louis, after Jean de Berry's death, would have the legitimacy, the money and the army. Quite a potiential juggernaut.

Hmm indeed, but he would need to play it careful, and try not to offend John of Burgundy no?
 
Hmm indeed, but he would need to play it careful, and try not to offend John of Burgundy no?
Indeed but i don't think Louis would want to destroy the Burgundians like the armagnacs. The man was behind 3 peace treaties. It was 3 fragile, bad peaces but it shows what he desired most. An end to the civil war. With this spirit AND the muscles he could acquire, he can force John the Fearless to negociate, who knows that he doesn't have a fanatical enemy before him. And this time, peace would be more solid. And one more thing, princes can make peace but the king and his heir have a far more precious power: they can forgive. Officially, no one can fight that. If Louis forgives John, it's not a peace treaty, it shows that Louis is superior to John. The Armagnacs could grunt but they would have to bend and John would prefer that to a fragile peace.
 
Top