Louis, Duke of Guyenne survives

Louis, Duke of Guyenne, was born in 1397, and was the third son of Charles VI and his wife Isabeu of Bavaria. He was created Duke of Guyenne and Dauphin after his brother Charles died in 1401. He was also married to Margaret of Burgundy, daughter of John the Fearless, a man who would go on to have great fame and infamy. Louis, died in 1415, from what is suspected to be dysentery, but before that, played a big role in keeping the peace between the Armagnacs and the Burgundians. Had he survived past 1415, what might the consequences have been for the HUndred Years War, would Henry V of England still manage to pull of something like the Treaty of Troyes, might Louis manage to unite France into a single unit to fight off the invaders?

What other consequences might there be?
 
Absolutely huge consequences : there will be no french civil war between armagnacs and burgundians.

John the fearless will stick with his stepson. Henry V will not have the advantage to exploit french divisions. He may still win one crushing victory Agincourt-like but the french will win this last phase of the hundred years war much faster than OTL.
Henry V may also be crushed at Agincourt, since it had a strong probability to happen OTL without burgundian participation.
 
Absolutely huge consequences : there will be no french civil war between armagnacs and burgundians.

John the fearless will stick with his stepson. Henry V will not have the advantage to exploit french divisions. He may still win one crushing victory Agincourt-like but the french will win this last phase of the hundred years war much faster than OTL.
Henry V may also be crushed at Agincourt, since it had a strong probability to happen OTL without burgundian participation.

Interesting, you mean his son in law? And indeed, I do think Henry V might still win Agincourt, Burgundy was still around when it happened otl, but didn't side with anyone.

Apart from that, what might the end consequences of the HUndred Years War look like?
 
Absolutely huge consequences : there will be no french civil war between armagnacs and burgundians.

John the fearless will stick with his stepson. Henry V will not have the advantage to exploit french divisions. He may still win one crushing victory Agincourt-like but the french will win this last phase of the hundred years war much faster than OTL.
Henry V may also be crushed at Agincourt, since it had a strong probability to happen OTL without burgundian participation.

Louis, duke of Guyenne and Dauphin, was still alive when the battle of Agincourt occurred. So he living longer would not change the battle of Agincourt.
 
Indeed. Do we know what he was like as a person?
Louis de Guyenne was like his uncle Louis d'Orléans. A intelligent young boy with a lot of culture, a patron of the arts like Jean de Berry. Physically, he was like his father: a quite tall man with blond hair and a pretty face despite a very long nose. But he wasn't chivalrous, he didn't like to ride a horse or hunt. Quite a nerd actually. That's why he wasn't very popular among the common people, specially in Paris. Politically, the man didn't choose a side. His firm belief was that a king muste bring peace and unity in his kingdom. In 1414, he was the author of the peace of arras, against the opinion of all armagnac leaders, which proves that at 17 years old, he began to become quite autonomous. By the way, the same year, he received the "gouvernement des finances du royaume" by the will of his father, which infuriated the armagnacs, who knew that if this young man had the money, he would have real power. Between 1414 and 1415, Louis de Guyenne was the only hope, a tiny, fragile hope to bring peace in France. Even Jean sans Peur wasn't too hostile to his son in law. In 1414, his ambassadors wrote that Louis de Guyenne quite saved the burgudians with his peace.
Unfortunately, there aren't many works about him, and all of them in french. If you can, you should read the " charles VI" of françoise autrand. That would be a good start.

BTW: I'm french so not so fluent in english. Sorry for the mistakes.
 
Okay that's quite interesting so would be one of those kings who didn't ride to battle himself?
I think that he would be like his grand father, charles V who believed that the best way to win a war to avoid the fight. And it worked. It wasn't the most glorious way but it was efficient. I think that the war with Guyenne would be a succession of sieges to retake the cities stormed by the british once their armies sailed back to england. In the war council two weeks before agincourt, all the old french captains ( boucicaut, charles d'albret) wanted to besiege harfleur. Jean de Berry had the same opinion. It was the young princes ( Orléans, Alençon) who wanted a battle. I think that Louis de Guyenne, if present ( we don't know if he was or no, chronicles don't tell), he would have follow the opinion of the olders. IMHO, the best way to beat Henry V would have been to trolling him.
 
I think that he would be like his grand father, charles V who believed that the best way to win a war to avoid the fight. And it worked. It wasn't the most glorious way but it was efficient. I think that the war with Guyenne would be a succession of sieges to retake the cities stormed by the british once their armies sailed back to england. In the war council two weeks before agincourt, all the old french captains ( boucicaut, charles d'albret) wanted to besiege harfleur. Jean de Berry had the same opinion. It was the young princes ( Orléans, Alençon) who wanted a battle. I think that Louis de Guyenne, if present ( we don't know if he was or no, chronicles don't tell), he would have follow the opinion of the olders. IMHO, the best way to beat Henry V would have been to trolling him.

Okay interesting, regarding Agincourt, he is noted as remaining at Rouen with his father,.
 
Okay interesting, regarding Agincourt, he is noted as remaining at Rouen with his father,.
so he was at the war council because it was held in this very town. I think that we have some POD. Agincourt just butterflied, the dream of all french lads
 
so he was at the war council because it was held in this very town. I think that we have some POD. Agincourt just butterflied, the dream of all french lads

How could it be butterflied? Even if he was at the war council it's evident that he had limited impact on the decision. I think Agincourt would still happen, but what happens afterwards is completely up in the air.
 
How could it be butterflied? Even if he was at the war council it's evident that he had limited impact on the decision. I think Agincourt would still happen, but what happens afterwards is completely up in the air.
Jean de Berry had an enormous influence inside the armagnac party but he was alone. Boucicaut had a lot of prestige but he didn't have royal blood in his veins. Same for the connétable d'albret. But if Louis de Guyenne had clearly said "we follow the plan of my uncle and Boucicaut", the others armagnacs would have obeyed. Alone Boucicaut, Louis de Guyenne and Jean de Berry, have not enough influence. Together, you have the best french captain, one the oldest and most respected royal prince and the french heir. And in the political culture of the time, you cannot publicy defy the will of the dauphin.
 
Jean de Berry had an enormous influence inside the armagnac party but he was alone. Boucicaut had a lot of prestige but he didn't have royal blood in his veins. Same for the connétable d'albret. But if Louis de Guyenne had clearly said "we follow the plan of my uncle and Boucicaut", the others armagnacs would have obeyed. Alone Boucicaut, Louis de Guyenne and Jean de Berry, have not enough influence. Together, you have the best french captain, one the oldest and most respected royal prince and the french heir. And in the political culture of the time, you cannot publicy defy the will of the dauphin.

True though what stopped him from speaking out otl?
 
True though what stopped him from speaking out otl?
to quote Adam Jensen: "the fact is we don't know". The chronicles aren't precise enough but about the war council, they said litteraly " après diverses opinions et imaginations", the idea of a battle prevailed. In modern english, it means "after a very heated debate". And Jean de Berry was "moult courroucé d'avoir accepté la bataille", which means he was LIVID, FURIOUS, that the armagnacs have chosen to fight against the english (he was in Poitiers so it brings back memories). So the decision to go to battle was a close. No one mentions the opinion of Louis de Guyenne. It's possible that he spoke, how we don't know. But the idea that he would support a cautious approach is plausible. The man was litterate, he read all christine de pizan's books. And one of them, the book of chivalry ( in fact a manual to learn how to make war) was very specific about one detail: Be careful and always listen to the opinions of the older warriors. The late middle ages, BTW, didn't like battles. The less you fight, the better you are
 
to quote Adam Jensen: "the fact is we don't know". The chronicles aren't precise enough but about the war council, they said litteraly " après diverses opinions et imaginations", the idea of a battle prevailed. In modern english, it means "after a very heated debate". And Jean de Berry was "moult courroucé d'avoir accepté la bataille", which means he was LIVID, FURIOUS, that the armagnacs have chosen to fight against the english (he was in Poitiers so it brings back memories). So the decision to go to battle was a close. No one mentions the opinion of Louis de Guyenne. It's possible that he spoke, how we don't know. But the idea that he would support a cautious approach is plausible. The man was litterate, he read all christine de pizan's books. And one of them, the book of chivalry ( in fact a manual to learn how to make war) was very specific about one detail: Be careful and always listen to the opinions of the older warriors. The late middle ages, BTW, didn't like battles. The less you fight, the better you are

Hmm intriguing, I do wonder if they overrode him or convinced him.
 
Hmm indeed. So with a marriage tie to John the Fearless, and the fact Burgundy wasn't at Agincourt, might that mean that all is not actually well?
what do you mean by "all is not actually well"? That the Armagnac's situation is far more fragile?
 
what do you mean by "all is not actually well"? That the Armagnac's situation is far more fragile?

Well no, more that there is still massive tension between the Armanagacs and the Burgundians, especially as the peace agreed the year before was seen as a joke.
 
Well no, more that there is still massive tension between the Armanagacs and the Burgundians, especially as the peace agreed the year before was seen as a joke.
John the Fearless was quite ambivalent. Yes there is a lot of tension between the two groups and yes to see the armagnacs slaughtered would have been quite pleasant for him. BUT french, even burgundians, DO not like english. Remember that his own father was popular because as a young boy, he was very brave at poitiers. And if he didn't officially sent reinforcements at Agincourt, he didn't forbade his men to go there either. And his brother died at agincourt.
 
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