Looking for an alternative to BC.

Can a purpose built CL perform scouting functions that historically were done by BC?


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My problem is that with 2x5.9" and 8x4" (in open mounts) you can't effectively fend off any ships be it CLs or BCs, they will just close and fire at you. At that point the belt will protect you partially it will stop penetration of the vitals but a percentage of hits will be lucky and hit something not covered properly and they will damage and slow you down, your guns will on the other hand achieve next to nothing and be suppressed by fire early on especially v a BCs.

This ship can scout but it will have to turn away as soon as it meets BCs so cant push through to find the main fleet without the risk of a lucky hit crippling it and them just getting sunk by being the target for far to many heavy guns to survive as it get pounded under the water by the grand fleet battleships or you will be sunk by Cl/DD torps quickly once you have no guns to stop them closing in.
This kind of ship is what I wanted to avoid. It is probably far cheaper than OTL BC's but not enough cheaper to be built, especially in numbers. This thread is going the way I thought it would, in that historically, ship building nations always wanted to build bigger and bigger ships, which is a natural tendency, but the opposite of what I am wanting to accomplish. I too would have wanted an armoured scout, not to break through to the enemies main fleet, but just to survive incoming fire long enough to get the contact report off and acknowledged while I turn tail and lead the enemy into my fleets guns (or away from them, as the case may be), but in either case, I would want to have a squadron of ships for such task, and formed up to have a point ship well ahead of the others, so if the point ship blunders into the enemy main body, it may or may not escape, but the rest of the squadron is out of sight/range (else the first ship wouldn't have blundered into their main forces gun range), and they will report the contact location, so mission accomplished!

I cannot see building ships like those posited above, all through this thread, including my initial 'design criteria', as they cannot work in the tonnage range I am looking for.

So guys, can someone plug in the historical B97 and the S113? I'd like to get the official SS estimate on their cost (Even if to low, we can adjust that upwards as needed) because I need to know what I'll have to pay for my surplus if I build unarmoured, very fast scouts, in numbers, for my ATL IGN. That or someone help me figure out the infernal & arcane workings of the SS program, so I can do it myself, lol. :)
 
This is interesting
WW1Book-RN3-P17-Map-Battle-of-Jutland-1916.jpg


It's a plot of the movements of the independent battlecruiser force and 1sg over a 15 minute period at Jutland. It gives some context for how spread out the British forces are and how big the screen is. To me it illustrates the pointlessness of sending out a scout that runs when they see the first British screening ship. You don't know if it's a straggler or the BCF or the Grand Fleet.
 
This is interestingView attachment 340404

It's a plot of the movements of the independent battlecruiser force and 1sg over a 15 minute period at Jutland. It gives some context for how spread out the British forces are and how big the screen is. To me it illustrates the pointlessness of sending out a scout that runs when they see the first British screening ship. You don't know if it's a straggler or the BCF or the Grand Fleet.

Thats fascinating - thanks for the share - look at how close 5th BS was to the Battlecruisers of 1st and 2nd Squadron - no reason why they were left behind!!!

From other accounts I have read 5th BS was many miles away but from this the distance is about 5 NMs and its effectively ahead at 2.15 so could have cut the corner

Imagine how that engagement would have gone from the outset with an additional 32 x 15" guns and superior optics and gun laying tables - ahhhh damn it.
 
Thats fascinating - thanks for the share - look at how close 5th BS was to the Battlecruisers of 1st and 2nd Squadron - no reason why they were left behind!!!

From other accounts I have read 5th BS was many miles away but from this the distance is about 5 NMs and its effectively ahead at 2.15 so could have cut the corner

Imagine how that engagement would have gone from the outset with an additional 32 x 15" guns and superior optics and gun laying tables - ahhhh damn it.
They are close now with 5bs at the front of the British line. 1sg is about to turn South and the bcf is about to follow. The ship that's supposed to relay orders to 5bs is the furthest ship in 1bc from it.

1bc and 2bc are about to steam full speed South and outstrip 5bs. 5bs follows the last order they received and go from 5 miles to 10 miles behind.
 
They are close now with 5bs at the front of the British line. 1sg is about to turn South and the bcf is about to follow. The ship that's supposed to relay orders to 5bs is the furthest ship in 1bc from it.

1bc and 2bc are about to steam full speed South and outstrip 5bs. 5bs follows the last order they received and go from 5 miles to 10 miles behind.

That bloody Ralph Seymour again - I thought the done thing was to send the idiot son to the Priesthood!!!
 
That bloody Ralph Seymour again - I thought the done thing was to send the idiot son to the Priesthood!!!
Not actually his fault. It wasn't his job to pass the message to 5BS.

You see the 1 bcf formation.

HMS Tiger is the last ship in the formation. Before the fleet turns north it is closest to 1 bcf and has the job of passing signals using the searchlight to 5bs. After the fleet turns north HAS Lion (Beaty) is the lead ship is closest to 5bs.

When 1bcf turns South the rest of 1bcf is between Tiger and 5BS so Tiger can't do it's job and signal 5BS.

No one realises. It's another example of Beaty having standing orders for his ships differing to the rest of the Grand Fleet and not telling Evan Thomas when 5BS joined the battlecruiser force.

The Grand Fleet standing order was to wait for instructions before manuevering.

The BCF standing order was that captains and admirals are expected to maintain position relative to he flagship while on maneuvers unless instructed differently.

It made sense. The bcf was about speed and sending messages by flag was slow. It's also why Beaty didn't care about having an unqualified politically connected flag lieutenant. He usually sent a lot less signals than other admirals.
 
Not actually his fault. It wasn't his job to pass the message to 5BS.

You see the 1 bcf formation.

HMS Tiger is the last ship in the formation. Before the fleet turns north it is closest to 1 bcf and has the job of passing signals using the searchlight to 5bs. After the fleet turns north HAS Lion (Beaty) is the lead ship is closest to 5bs.

When 1bcf turns South the rest of 1bcf is between Tiger and 5BS so Tiger can't do it's job and signal 5BS.

No one realises. It's another example of Beaty having standing orders for his ships differing to the rest of the Grand Fleet and not telling Evan Thomas when 5BS joined the battlecruiser force.

The Grand Fleet standing order was to wait for instructions before manuevering.

The BCF standing order was that captains and admirals are expected to maintain position relative to he flagship while on maneuvers unless instructed differently.

It made sense. The bcf was about speed and sending messages by flag was slow. It's also why Beaty didn't care about having an unqualified politically connected flag lieutenant. He usually sent a lot less signals than other admirals.

It makes sense when he bothers to let 5 BS know that how he rolls - he didn't bother even visiting Evan Thomas or inviting him over for a cuppa in the weeks 5BS was with them while 3rd BCS was off learning to shoot straight so they didn't know that's how he rolled and so it didn't make sense in practise.

In practice I believe that Beatty was far to cavalier in his command style - and surely some one must have noticed 5 BS swanning off North when they turned - and Seymour should have been fired for his earlier mistakes - connected to the Churchills or not - he was also responsible for the signalling error that was Windy corner which nearly cost us Warspite - and no effort was made by Beatty during the 'run to the north' to make it clear to 5th BS that the entire German fleet was approaching - not even a sharp intake of breath and a 'I wouldn't if were you' in their (5 BS) direction.

Somebody need to write it go on!

Only way I see it working is if Beatty is replaced for the battle - who is next in command for the bcf? Hood?

And as for me writing it - my sole writing contribution to this site is an unfinished story about how Force L with Bearn sinks the Graf Spee instead of Force G ;)
 
It makes sense when he bothers to let 5 BS know that how he rolls - he didn't bother even visiting Evan Thomas or inviting him over for a cuppa in the weeks 5BS was with them while 3rd BCS was off learning to shoot straight so they didn't know that's how he rolled and so it didn't make sense in practise.

True, there's a big difference between theory and practice.

Only way I see it working is if Beatty is replaced for the battle - who is next in command for the bcf? Hood?
Either rear admiral hood commanding 3rd battlecruiser squadron or rear admiral Pakenham commanding 2nd battlecruiser squadron.

If it was an on the day substitution (say Beaty was ill) it would be Pakenham as Hood's 3bcs was with the Grand Fleet.

Edit thinking more, if Beatty and Jellicoe had a falling out I would expect Vice Admiral Sturdee to transfer in from the Grand Fleet and 4BS.
 
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