Looking for an alternative to BC.

Can a purpose built CL perform scouting functions that historically were done by BC?


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Also, my understanding is that while all ships loose speed capability in high seas, the lighter ships suffer more of this than their larger cousins? OTL Scharnhorst class not included, of course. So what kind of bad weather will slow down the other fellows destroyers, but still allow a CL to keep most of it's speed? In OTL, when the Bismarck sortied, the RN destroyers that had been sent out failed to make contact, party because of being slowed down due to the weather, is this correct? Or am I just not thinking right?
 
I'm not an engineer so I'm not good at explaining these things.

Sea keeping is a measure of heave pitch and roll. The heavier the ship is for it's size the lower it sits in the water and the worse the freebird of the ship.

Obviously size helps avoid heave pitch and roll. A small vessel without depth can be easily pushed by waves.

The sea keeping of the Scharnhorst was bad (partially) because the Bow of the ship was too heavy. This meant that the ship dipped into the water and often took on water from waves. Scharnhorst and Gneisau were poorly designed and a bad platform for shooting and would often naturally list slightly.

The reason why you can't emulate the B97 is that destroyers were unarmoured, carried light guns, no turrets etc. No power plant for radio greater than line sight etc. Once you start adding stuff you have to move it. So you want armour that weights, you want guns that weighs. You want turrets that weights. You want a radio capable of sending a sighting report. You need to convert engine power to electricity. The rig that does weighs. Then you have to move it all. That makes the ship bigger which means you need more armour than a competitor.

You can't just go without all this because the most important part of scouting is figuring out what's behind the screen. So you need weapons and armour. If you see 3 British cruisers you can't just turn and run and assume its the Grand fleet. You need to either get by them or get around them to find out what's behind them. If you try running around them at max speed you might do that or you might run into their other screening forces. Either way you will get in their range for at least a little bit so you need armour. You can't cut down on the basics.
 
Also, my understanding is that while all ships loose speed capability in high seas, the lighter ships suffer more of this than their larger cousins? OTL Scharnhorst class not included, of course. So what kind of bad weather will slow down the other fellows destroyers, but still allow a CL to keep most of it's speed? In OTL, when the Bismarck sortied, the RN destroyers that had been sent out failed to make contact, party because of being slowed down due to the weather, is this correct? Or am I just not thinking right?
Destroyers don't have the range of the likes of Battleships, Battlecruisers or regular cruisers.
When going to intercept Bismarck at DS, Hood and POW were going at roughly 29 knots.
Destroyers cannot possibly keep up with that, and, of course, the Heavy seas made it even harder to keep up.
Cruisers don't have this problem, as they are much bigger, and therefore (usualky) much better sea boats, not to mention have better range.
Same with Scharnhorsts destroyers, the problem being more the heavy seas, rather than range.
 
Also I didn't mention this because I'm not certain but I believe that the standards in maximum speed for cruisers and destroyers were different.

Destroyers max speed was the speed they could make if they sprint at the enemy on a torpedo attack. Running that speed for sustained periods cause engine damage but the ability to make a torpedo attack at speed was valued. Cruisers are required to maintain their speed over longer periods.
 
Of course the Guissano isn't armoured against cruiser guns. These are considered more destroyer hunters rather than cruisers.

Well yes, that is rather what you have to pay for getting a 37 knot ship with cruiser guns on 6000 tons. As i said, it's the closest match, and laid down 14 years after the date any ship that is commisioned around 1916 would probably be laid down.
 
Well yes, that is rather what you have to pay for getting a 37 knot ship with cruiser guns on 6000 tons. As i said, it's the closest match, and laid down 14 years after the date any ship that is commisioned around 1916 would probably be laid down.
I just felt a need to stress it to the op since he said he said in his first post that he felt it should be armoured against light cruiser guns.
 
I just felt a need to stress it to the op since he said he said in his first post that he felt it should be armoured against light cruiser guns.

Ah, i suspect if you want something armoured against light cruiser guns it will look more like the Blitzen i posted up thread than the Guissano. With all the additional costs involved.

I did make an alternative ship, pretty much a 15 000 ton armoured cruiser at 29 knots

SMS Blücher II, German Armoured cruiser laid down 1914

Displacement:
12 988 t light; 13 675 t standard; 15 000 t normal; 16 060 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(601,50 ft / 590,55 ft) x 65,62 ft x (30,18 / 31,69 ft)
(183,34 m / 180,00 m) x 20,00 m x (9,20 / 9,66 m)

Armament:
8 - 8,27" / 210 mm 45,0 cal guns - 308,65lbs / 140,00kg shells, 160 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1914 Model
4 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
10 - 3,46" / 88,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 20,97lbs / 9,51kg shells, 250 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1914 Model
6 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
6 raised mounts
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
10 - 5,91" / 150 mm 45,0 cal guns - 99,87lbs / 45,30kg shells, 250 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1914 Model
10 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 3 678 lbs / 1 668 kg
Main Torpedoes
4 - 20,0" / 508 mm, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m torpedoes - 1,152 t each, 4,608 t total
In 2 sets of deck mounted carriage/fixed tubes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 8,07" / 205 mm 360,70 ft / 109,94 m 9,71 ft / 2,96 m
Ends: 3,94" / 100 mm 229,82 ft / 70,05 m 9,71 ft / 2,96 m
Upper: 2,95" / 75 mm 360,70 ft / 109,94 m 8,01 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 94 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
1,57" / 40 mm 360,70 ft / 109,94 m 24,70 ft / 7,53 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 59,61 ft / 18,17 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7,48" / 190 mm 5,51" / 140 mm 7,87" / 200 mm
3rd: 2,36" / 60 mm 1,18" / 30 mm -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 3,15" / 80 mm
Forecastle: 1,18" / 30 mm Quarter deck: 1,18" / 30 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 5,91" / 150 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 72 873 shp / 54 363 Kw = 29,00 kts
Range 6 700nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2 385 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
677 - 881

Cost:
£1,476 million / $5,905 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 711 tons, 4,7 %
- Guns: 705 tons, 4,7 %
- Weapons: 6 tons, 0,0 %
Armour: 4 571 tons, 30,5 %
- Belts: 1 862 tons, 12,4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 519 tons, 3,5 %
- Armament: 865 tons, 5,8 %
- Armour Deck: 1 247 tons, 8,3 %
- Conning Tower: 77 tons, 0,5 %
Machinery: 3 088 tons, 20,6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4 618 tons, 30,8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 012 tons, 13,4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
15 713 lbs / 7 127 Kg = 55,6 x 8,3 " / 210 mm shells or 2,9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,08
Metacentric height 3,1 ft / 0,9 m
Roll period: 15,7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,52
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,03

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,449 / 0,458
Length to Beam Ratio: 9,00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24,30 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 9,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 19,46 %, 27,72 ft / 8,45 m, 22,87 ft / 6,97 m
- Forward deck: 20,00 %, 22,87 ft / 6,97 m, 22,87 ft / 6,97 m
- Aft deck: 41,08 %, 11,91 ft / 3,63 m, 11,91 ft / 3,63 m
- Quarter deck: 19,46 %, 11,91 ft / 3,63 m, 11,91 ft / 3,63 m
- Average freeboard: 16,61 ft / 5,06 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93,9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 107,1 %
Waterplane Area: 24 695 Square feet or 2 294 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 122 lbs/sq ft or 594 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,96
- Longitudinal: 1,44
- Overall: 1,00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
 
Ah, i suspect if you want something armoured against light cruiser guns it will look more like the Blitzen i posted up thread than the Guissano. With all the additional costs involved.

I did make an alternative ship, pretty much a 15 000 ton armoured cruiser at 29 knots

SMS Blücher II, German Armoured cruiser laid down 1914

Displacement:
12 988 t light; 13 675 t standard; 15 000 t normal; 16 060 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(601,50 ft / 590,55 ft) x 65,62 ft x (30,18 / 31,69 ft)
(183,34 m / 180,00 m) x 20,00 m x (9,20 / 9,66 m)

Armament:
8 - 8,27" / 210 mm 45,0 cal guns - 308,65lbs / 140,00kg shells, 160 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1914 Model
4 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
10 - 3,46" / 88,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 20,97lbs / 9,51kg shells, 250 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1914 Model
6 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
6 raised mounts
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
10 - 5,91" / 150 mm 45,0 cal guns - 99,87lbs / 45,30kg shells, 250 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1914 Model
10 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 3 678 lbs / 1 668 kg
Main Torpedoes
4 - 20,0" / 508 mm, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m torpedoes - 1,152 t each, 4,608 t total
In 2 sets of deck mounted carriage/fixed tubes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 8,07" / 205 mm 360,70 ft / 109,94 m 9,71 ft / 2,96 m
Ends: 3,94" / 100 mm 229,82 ft / 70,05 m 9,71 ft / 2,96 m
Upper: 2,95" / 75 mm 360,70 ft / 109,94 m 8,01 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 94 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
1,57" / 40 mm 360,70 ft / 109,94 m 24,70 ft / 7,53 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 59,61 ft / 18,17 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7,48" / 190 mm 5,51" / 140 mm 7,87" / 200 mm
3rd: 2,36" / 60 mm 1,18" / 30 mm -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 3,15" / 80 mm
Forecastle: 1,18" / 30 mm Quarter deck: 1,18" / 30 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 5,91" / 150 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 72 873 shp / 54 363 Kw = 29,00 kts
Range 6 700nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2 385 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
677 - 881

Cost:
£1,476 million / $5,905 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 711 tons, 4,7 %
- Guns: 705 tons, 4,7 %
- Weapons: 6 tons, 0,0 %
Armour: 4 571 tons, 30,5 %
- Belts: 1 862 tons, 12,4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 519 tons, 3,5 %
- Armament: 865 tons, 5,8 %
- Armour Deck: 1 247 tons, 8,3 %
- Conning Tower: 77 tons, 0,5 %
Machinery: 3 088 tons, 20,6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4 618 tons, 30,8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 012 tons, 13,4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
15 713 lbs / 7 127 Kg = 55,6 x 8,3 " / 210 mm shells or 2,9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,08
Metacentric height 3,1 ft / 0,9 m
Roll period: 15,7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,52
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,03

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,449 / 0,458
Length to Beam Ratio: 9,00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24,30 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 9,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 19,46 %, 27,72 ft / 8,45 m, 22,87 ft / 6,97 m
- Forward deck: 20,00 %, 22,87 ft / 6,97 m, 22,87 ft / 6,97 m
- Aft deck: 41,08 %, 11,91 ft / 3,63 m, 11,91 ft / 3,63 m
- Quarter deck: 19,46 %, 11,91 ft / 3,63 m, 11,91 ft / 3,63 m
- Average freeboard: 16,61 ft / 5,06 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93,9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 107,1 %
Waterplane Area: 24 695 Square feet or 2 294 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 122 lbs/sq ft or 594 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,96
- Longitudinal: 1,44
- Overall: 1,00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Agreed.

Assuming Britain didn't go for battlecruisers I would expect something like what you posted (except slightly slower) being a mainstay scouting force. As I said further up the thread the scout must be able to punch through a screen. You could probably drop 10-15k horse power and only lose a single knot in max speed. It might be considered a good bargain financially.
 
Agreed.

Assuming Britain didn't go for battlecruisers I would expect something like what you posted (except slightly slower) being a mainstay scouting force. As I said further up the thread the scout must be able to punch through a screen. You could probably drop 10-15k horse power and only lose a single knot in max speed. It might be considered a good bargain financially.

Pretty spot on, ~12 000 less hp and 750 tons lighter, saves £120 000 or $ 380 000 according to springsharp.
 
Well, I have to thank you folks for taking the time and explaining why I cannot get the ships I wanted, lol. So last question on this then, for sustained speeds of 36 kts, what could I have in light guns, on a ship that had no real armor?
 
Well, I have to thank you folks for taking the time and explaining why I cannot get the ships I wanted, lol. So last question on this then, for sustained speeds of 36 kts, what could I have in light guns, on a ship that had no real armor?


I'm willing to stake a guess that you take a b97, expand it a bit, add 40% horsepower and make it three shafts rather than two shafts system and for around 5 thousand tonnes you can maintain engagement speeds of 36 knots. Not cruising speed because that's impossible but engagement speed. So you might be able to have a 3,000 tonne 'cruiser with destroyer guns.
 
I'm willing to stake a guess that you take a b97, expand it a bit, add 40% horsepower and make it three shafts rather than two shafts system and for around 5 thousand tonnes you can maintain engagement speeds of 36 knots. Not cruising speed because that's impossible but engagement speed. So you might be able to have a 3,000 tonne 'cruiser with destroyer guns.
So a Super Destroyer?
Destroyer-Cruiser?
Are we putting torps on this thing?
 
I'm willing to stake a guess that you take a b97, expand it a bit, add 40% horsepower and make it three shafts rather than two shafts system and for around 5 thousand tonnes you can maintain engagement speeds of 36 knots. Not cruising speed because that's impossible but engagement speed. So you might be able to have a 3,000 tonne 'cruiser with destroyer guns.

Interesting. Would that posited build get a scouting force that could function in heavy seas, do you think? What kind of range would I be looking at and what cruising speed? The top speed of the fleet's BB is 21 kts, so their cruising speed should be a good deal slower, and thus these ships could be effective as a scouting force for them?

The reason I ask this is I have the preliminary work done on an ATL outline, and within this outline I have accounted for almost all the OTL capitol ship construction, and have just about 60-70,000 tons left un built after getting all the heavies redesigned, compared to OTL. So I need these ships, lol.

So a Super Destroyer?
Destroyer-Cruiser?
Yep, the above. I don't know why I didn't just think of calling this a heavy Destroyer from the get go, but I guess that is about what I can get to have my speed and slight tonnage too.

Are we putting torps on this thing?
Not sure about that, as like the big guns, this may temp one to close with the enemy, when they are supposed to do the opposite. Heck, I wonder if these ships should even ever be considered part of the screening force, rather than strictly scouting? What do you guys have to say for or against a torpedo armament?
 
Not sure about that, as like the big guns, this may temp one to close with the enemy, when they are supposed to do the opposite. Heck, I wonder if these ships should even ever be considered part of the screening force, rather than strictly scouting? What do you guys have to say for or against a torpedo armament?
Well, otherwise they're purpose is very limited to spotting the enemy fleet, scaring off destroyers and then buggering off when the enemy fleet comes into range.
 
Well, these super destroyers are built as fleet scouts right? How are they going to fight past the RN scouting forces to achieve their objective? What ships are possible adversaries building that the ships might face? Earlier attempts at some kind of dazzle camouflage might be needed if the ships are to survive?
 
Well, these super destroyers are built as fleet scouts right?
Yes indeed.

How are they going to fight past the RN scouting forces to achieve their objective? What ships are possible adversaries building that the ships might face?
They are not supposed to fight past the enemies scout/screen forces, they are to break away (out of gun range), get confirmation of contact report to fleet, either shore or ship based HQ, and maintain distant contact. If the enemy give chase, stay out of range and lead them to where ever you like, depending on what ships you have and see of theirs. As these ships would not be used for a minor sortie, but rather as eyes of the fleet, the enemy can safely assume that your main force is out and about, and that by following your ships as best they can, they have a good chance to run into the screening forces, and then the main body.

Without armor, I cannot see these scouts acting as even part of the screening forces, as the lighter, cheaper ships can do that task, whereas only the scouts can do what they do, so leading the enemy scouts/screening forces either to your own screening forces, or away from your forces, as the situation warrants, is their task.

Earlier attempts at some kind of dazzle camouflage might be needed if the ships are to survive?
The camouflage is one possibility, smoke screens another. A third would be a 'scouting top', rather than a fire control position, on a ship without any real need, how about a observation platform well equipped with the multiple sets of the best 'ships glasses' (IIRC?). As these ships are supposed to be our eyes, I would want a very good observation platform, and have the capability of having more observers on look out duty than strictly needed, so as to form a double check on each other.

So, what kind of 'ships glasses' would you put atop say a two decker observer platform at the top of your mast? How many of them and how many crew with simple binoculars?
 
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Looking at the demographics of this change, we have:
The IGN builds more battleships.
No overpriced BC means a less expensive fleet, gun for gun.
This means that the over priced BC don't exist, and that the enemy BC's/scouts must be fled from if/when encountered.
The enemy BC's/scouts do NOT have a speed advantage over the German scouts.
And that all the limited German heavy guns are in an all or nothing formation, so you find one, you find them all, after they know your coming and from which direction.

I understand now, as I definitely didn't when I started this thread, that armor and speed, on a light displacement scout, just don't work. The only thing left would be to ask if the structural strength and seagoing capabilities of these scouts can be augmented so as to allow the high speed in as harsh of weather as possible, for as long as possible.

Other things that would be a bonus, the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of naval smokescreens, in different weather and sea conditions.
The effect of multiple, doubled up, 'ships glasses' as high up on the mast as possible.
The effect of having an enclosed, heated portion of the observation deck, that includes a bathroom, coffeepot, and some comfortable chairs and snacks, to make keeping one's lookouts as bright eyed and bushy tailed as we can get. What about a circular, fenced in, staircase winding around the mast and the vertical ladders?
The effect of having a large complement of observers, and many additional sets of ships glasses about the ship, so training new observers could go on enmass, as these ships are going to be more expensive than other screening ships, though far less expensive than the OTL German BC's, I'm trying to toss ideas out there for other than combat things they could be used for. I'm getting tired, and not making much sense, so I'll go eat something and be back later.
 
Well, otherwise they're purpose is very limited to spotting the enemy fleet, scaring off destroyers and then buggering off when the enemy fleet comes into range.
Not spotting the enemy fleet but rather spotting enemy screening forces which may or may not be part of the enemy fleet.

The other big problem is that in the wrong weather/range you can be in range of cruiser guns and not be able to identify if your contact is a cruiser or a merchant man if you are outlined by the sun and they are not. There was moment in Jutland where a German captain made an identification of the forces opposed to him by the number and size of shell splashes.
 
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