Look What This Friendship has Caused!-A TL

Don't expect too much, this is my first timeline. :eek: I HAVE DONE A COMPLETE REVISION. Please tell me if you consider this an improvement(and more realistic) than what had previously been up. To be honest, I'm not entirely sure on the population statistics of Constantinople, but I believe I read somewhere that it was the population at the time.


POD:POD: Martin V’s life is filled with encounters with Jews being generous, positive, friendly, and while the Pope keeps his fondness and friendship with Jews for the most part quiet, he does speak out for tolerance towards Jews, referring to them as the brothers who have yet to see Christ’s glory, but that one day will(his pretext for religious tolerance and equality for Jews without getting lynched himself). Pope Martin V also has a deep dislike for Muslims, due to the influence of his Jewish friends and acquaintances having had some bad experiences with Muslims(yet also some good but for our purpose they only really bother to tell him the bad side) and his strong anti-Muslim views in the end helped him balance his pro-Jew views, allowing him to be elected as Pope by the cardinals, with one or two swapping sides based on this Martin V.


Since becoming Pope, Martin V secretly began to amass funds for the Byzantines, using his wealthy Jewish contacts to help. He met with several wealthy Jews shortly after becoming Pope and proposed to strengthen his pro-Jewish attitude and officially make the church discourage discrimination against Jews, should they give large funds to the Papacy. Seeing the possibility of getting rid of racism in the long term, less racism meaning more chances to trade farther north and in the far east, they quickly accepted and provided even more funds. Pope Martin V contacted Emperor Manuel II and Co-Emperor John VIII about the possibility of mass funding, should they agree to several terms demanded by the Pope. Two weeks earlier, the Roman-Byzantine city of Thessalonica had come under attack by the Ottoman Empire.


By this time, the Byzantine state was a shadow of it’s former glory. It was a poor city with a population of 50,000 people, not the great metropolis of the early Roman era. At this point, naturally, Emperor Manuel II was desperate, so he was happy to hear the Pope out. At the moment, the Hungarians, Serbians, and Albanians where making a desperate bid against the Ottomans, knowing it was win, or become the subjects of the Turks. The Pope, a strong Islamophobe, knew that the Balkans where at the point of no return. So, he proposed the following. A) The patriarch of Constantinople would preach that the Pope was THE closest thing to god on this earth(this would by effect make Orthodox Christians Eastern Catholic(in name but actually uniates in that they accept the Pope, period, nothing else, everything else is Orthodox)). B) Byzantine Empire pledged to defend Europe from Islam for the next 50 years, which included liberating Bulgaria and Greece, C) The Byzantines will evacuate all Muslims from any territory they control, and D) The supreme general of the Byzantine state will be appointed by the Pope until the Ottoman Empire is out of Europe.

Manuel II accepted, knowing that, either the Byzantines won outright, or they would disappear of the map, and even if they managed to establish a stable border, the Turks would be back. After accepting, the Papal messenger was sneaked out of Constantinople on a Genoese ship and reported back to the Pope, to tell him of Manuel’s answer. The Pope was satisfied. He had truly been prepared to accept the responsibility of funding the Byzantines regardless. He had plans for the next day.

The Pope was ready to make his stand. He gathered the cardinals and announced that he had a speech. He gulped, then started speaking. For twenty minutes he discussed a brief history of his views on Islam and how they barbarically expanded into once European North Africa and Islamicized it into the land of pirates. He talked about the brutality of Muhammad. Obviously, he pulled it all out of his rabid Islamophobia and exaggerated nearly everything, but he hit a tone. Europe proper was next. He then talked about the situation in the Balkans, and how Serbia, Albania, and Hungary fought for their independence and their religion while the Greeks and Bulgarians had already been defeated. He then pointed out that should Constantinople fall, it would deal a major blow to Christianity and guarantee the fall of Serbia and Albania, with the possibility of Caucasian and Kievian expansion opening as well, from the tremendous moral blow that the fall of Constantinople could deal.

This quickly convinced the cardinals to support the Pope’s goals. The Pope quickly purchased several cannons and hired the Venetians and Genoese sail them to Constantinople along with hand cannons to arm the Byzantine soldiers properly. Should the Ottomans possibly capture their ships, they where ordered to destroy all their equipment. Only one ship was captured by the Ottomans, all others safely reaching Constantinople or being sunk before it could be looted. As though by faith, the captured ship was full of munitions to weapons the Ottomans did not have access to, much to their frustration. While the Byzantines remained outnumbered and outperformed by the Ottomans, technology was on their side, and so where several other Christian states. The Papacy had sent hand cannons to the Serbs, cannons to the Albanians, and cannons and handguns to the Hungarians. They where hoping to allow Albania to hold it’s position while the Serbs advanced on the Ottomans with the Hungarians protecting Wallachia, their puppet, using cannons and performing their own advances into Bulgaria using their hand cannons to their advantages. With small progress being made and the Ottomans falling back from Macedonia and Bulgaria, the Byzantines received a minor boost in morale, however, they realized that at this rate, the Ottomans would eventually catch up in technology.

The Papacy had sent several men to train the Byzantine army into a military force who’s main goals where to make Constantinople impregnable. The walls where reinforced once again, cannon slots where added all over the walls, an organized system of night watchmen was set up, the principle entrance which the Ottomans where attempting to break in through was set with traps then sealed on the other side, and men where trained to shoot accurately. Constantinople was now a king among fortresses. Meanwhile, the Papacy had also been busy funding rebellion. The papacy had funded many men to travel into Greece and Bulgaria and to tell tales of the Ottoman system, the horrors they did to anyone who disobeyed, that they planned to Islamicize them, and that should you not agree, painful torture would be done until you accepted or died. Naturally, major riots occurred. Ottoman supply lines where constantly under attack by angry peasants with crude weapons, and this was quickly being shown in the Ottoman performance. The constant attacks on Constantinople grew weaker, there where less men attacking, less motivation, and many felt miserable away from their families.

The Papacy and Byzantines where quick to take advantage of the thorn in the Ottomans’ side and proposed to the Venetians and Genoese to join their war effort in exchange for trading rights in certain areas of Bulgaria, Wallachia, Greece, and Serbia and more small trading colonies in Greece should they accept, in addition to their current trading colonies. Seeing even greater control of the spice trade, they accepted. Their main obligation to the war under the terms agreed was to send troops and people to Constantinople to help launch a counterattack. However, over sending their own countrymen, the Genoese and Venetians sent men from Naples, Sicily, and Southern Greece into Constantinople. The size of the population quickly grew, and they where quickly sent to do one of the major reasons the Byzantines wanted more people in a city that needed supplies from other nations to keep 50,000 people afloat. Farm laborers. Many of these men had come from farms owned by the nobility and had worked as peasants, and with their experience in farming, Constantinople’s population grew to 100,000 people by 1428 and roughly ½ of all men had received some form of military training, and 1/4th where well trained in warfare. Women where encouraged to have many children. Constantinople was a highly militarized society by this point, but one much better off than it would have been without it’s Papal alliance. The general(That had been kept undisclosed by the Byzantines until the 1700s to not take from their glory) that was to lead the first offense of the War of Thessalonica by the Byzantine military and the first truly successful campaign to make any significant progress.


END OF PART 1/TEASER

Post your opinions! More to come!
 
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For a first effort I like it :D. The Roman Emperor of the day was Manuel II though. Constantine XI was his grandson, and did not come to the throne until 1448. I'll post more detailed opinions when I get home.
 
Shortly after his election as the Pope, the Ottomans attempt to annex Thessalonica from the decaying ruins of the Byzantine Empire, and Murad II, Ottoman Sultan, decides to try a new tactic that popped into his head overnight. He will attempt to siege Constantinople indefinitely and land small forces on most Byzantine islands, enough forces so that the local ruler would surrender and the Byzantines would not be able to access Thessalonica, thus forcing the Byzantines into Constantinople proper, thus, allowing himself an easier campaign, especially so if he can surround Thessalonica and cut off other Christian nations from aiding the Byzantines.


Martin V was elected Pope in 1417, whereas the Byzantines owned Thessalonica until 1423, when they sold it to Venice. Venice owned it until 29 March 1430, when Murad II conquered it from them. In addition, Murad II reigned from 1421 to 1444 and 1446 to 1450. In addition, in 1422, Martin V still had anti-popes to worry about, rather than Ottomans.


To further detail on Murad, he was fighting a Byzantine-sponsored pretender, Mustafa Celibi, who had declared himself Sultan of Adrianople after he was delivered by the Byzantines to Ottoman hands and defeated and killed the Ottoman general Beyazid Pasha. Long story short, Murad was too busy at the start of his reign, as the Byzantines pursued their ancient and proven tactic of causing dismay in the enemy's ranks using politics. (More rebellions from Byzantine-backed brothers followed the same year.) He also had the Anatolian rival states constantly plotting against him.


He reasoned that if he was already sieging Constantinople, applying more pressure on them would only make them crack faster. What would happen instead of Murad II’s several month-long siege, would be a siege that would last for years on end. By 1423, in a panic, the Byzantine emperor sent a message to the papacy, fearing that the end of his reign was upon him. In desperation, he uses his only piece of leverage that he possibly held at this time. He would reunite the Eastern church with the Roman Catholic Church. Understandably, at first, Pope Martin V was understandably skeptic. How many times had this been offered at one time or another? There weren’t enough Catholics to count how many times. However, as the Venetian situation got more and more desperate as the Ottoman strategy was starting to work, the Pope’s thought went into gear:


As a historical footnote, the Byzantine Empire defeated the second Ottoman siege of Constantinople in 1422. The future pope Pius II even promoted the affordable donation of cannons to the Byzantines, whereas the Ottomans had only just secured their first cannons. Considering the number of threats and distractions around Murad, I cannot see how is this going to work, and thus, how to create a problem for Martin V to respond to in the first place. Furthermore, keep in mind that by the 1420's the real executive power was John VIII, co-emperor (heir) to Manuel II, who had been retiring for some years.


He was pondering the political benefits of accepting the proposal of the incompetent king Constantine XI to reunite the church in exchange for having papal intervention into their precarious situation.


The most commonly used and proper term is “emperor” and not merely “king.” Also, Constantine XI, incompetent or not (which is not for me to judge, but he performed quite well before he became emperor, so I would not call him “incompetent”) reigned between 1449 and 1453. At 1422, the emperor was Manuel II, with John VIII as his co-emperor. Again, Manuel II had already been retiring for some time, passing more and more powers to John.


Already Thessalonica was owned by the Venetians, but that Muslim sultan was still sieging Constantinople relentlessly, determined to be the one to obtain the glory of taking the second Rome.


Unless Venice time-travels or you have more edits in the OTL, the Venetians do not own Thessalonica in 1422. They bought it in 1423.


After all, they had taken down the Bulgarian Empire just recently


This can be argued. The dates given for the Ottoman subjugation of the Second Bulgarian Empire are both 1396 and 1422. The last town of the Tsardom, in any case, fell in 1395, which was hardly “just recently” 27 years later.


The reaction came swiftly after 3 months of sitting on the idea. The papal armies where quickly mobilized and sent straight to Thessalonica, while the Pope ordered the Papal Chancery to tax Europe, claiming this to be a show of support, the last stand, against the Islamic Turks. The Pope quickly amassed funds and cut many unnecessary projects to fund his war. The papacy was also quick to order most priests to encourage young men to travel to the Papal States and volunteer to join against the Turks. While the concept of killing themselves in the name of something resembling a crusade didn’t appeal to many, sizeable German, French, and Italian men traveled to enroll.


Papal Armies really got me searching here... I could not find any clear reference to the existence of any, in fact. I have been under the impression that the Papacy has been traditionally relying in outsider help for military affairs, since it lacked the resources to raise armies under its direct command. Can you please show me your reference regarding the existence of “Papal armies?”


The Pope would need feudal armies for this. Exactly why the Crusades took place, and the way they took place.


On a military note, I must remind you of the technology of the era. Mobilisations, long-range communications and the like, in the era, would take weeks at best and months at worst to be completed. Especially something like “ordering most priests to encourage young men to travel to the Papal States.”


In addition, this is a feudal period, and “most young men” would be under serfdom or follow a local feudal lord (the lord following other lords, who in turn would follow the King.) Your mobilisation, as well as taxation, sounds very unlikely and unrealistic by feudal standards and the technology of the era.


The seas where going well as well for the Christian armies. The Venetian fleet managed to break occasional supplies to Constantinople, and most people agree that without Venice, Constantinople would fall. However, the most important impact was the actual merger of the churches into one.


Again I am not a hundred percent sure on this one, but among Constantinople's major grain suppliers was the Crimea, on the other side of the map than the Dardanelles. Future sultan Mehmed II built forts on both ends of the Bosporus exactly to cut off this very vital seaborne supply.


Most important of all is the dislike of “Latins” (Catholics) by Byzantine people in this period (a dislike that carried on for centuries and still has visible effects in modern Greece.) After the Fourth Crusade in 1204, there were not few Byzantines, including high profile ones, who backed the statement “Better the Turkish turban than the Papal tiara” due to the thievery of a crusade that sundered Byzantium.


The Pope agreed to compensate Constantine XI should he lose Constantinople by giving him Crete and all non-Ottoman, non-Venetian, non-Genoese islands, and the Athens area. Serbia and Albania would expand at this future kingdom’s expense southwards, guaranteeing the Kingdom of Greece would be a puppet of contestation by Serbia and Albania. Meanwhile, the Pope had gained respect. He had gained respect from most Balkan peoples that where Orthodox, except Bulgarians, as obviously, if the Papacy is your enemy, you wouldn’t change to his religion, now would you? In Poland-Lithuania, many converted due to the influence of their king and an official visit to Poland-Lithuanian Orthodox areas preaching to them to accept the Pope. Infact, what is today known as Ukraine, Belorussia, and Southern Russia would remain strongly Catholic for some time. To be fair, the Patriarch of Constantinople was promised the accession of himself as a Cardinal of the Papacy, so he was content.


For starters, the Pope owned none of these territories to negotiate for them. Second, “Crete and all non-Ottoman, non-Venetian, non-Genoese islands and Athens” mean nothing at all, since that was pretty much all of the Aegean region plus Athens by that time, and Athens itself was under Latin (Catholic) control as an independent Duchy since 1205.


In addition, no such thing as “Kingdom of Greece” existed before the 1830's. Also, I doubt local Catholic rulers in Central-Eastern Europe have not traditionally tried to convert rival Orthodox populace to Catholicism. Such conversions have been shown to have mixed effects, bringing both success and failure. It should be noted though that the Catholics insisted on using Latin while the Orthodox adapted the local language for liturgies, which greatly helped the spread of Orthodox Christianity.


Last, but not least, the Constantinople patriarch of the time was Joseph II. He attended the Council of Florence and official Ecumenical Patriarchate records I could find mention he “tried to engage in theological debate and defend the rights of the Ecumenical Patriarchate” despite the Emperor's pressure to support a union of the two churches. (Which itself was used politically by the Byzantines and half-unseriously.)


Meanwhile, in Muscovy, things where not all bright. Prince Basil II of Muscovy outright refused to accept Catholicism as it would threaten his power as king. In the end, he decided to form his own, Russian Orthodox Church, and swore that should the Patriarch step foot into Muscovy, that he would nail him himself………..with a stake through the head. Naturally, the Patriarch kept his distance but conversions did occur regardless on the border regions of Muscovy. Much to his dislike, Basil II went on a killing spree of all Catholics in Muscovy, and after he was finished, no Russian was insane enough to even consider not following Basil. However, areas such as Karelia and parts of Finland that Muscovy controlled would quietly remain Catholic no matter how stubbornly the Russians would try. Most Finns now say, ‘Well, we aren’t Russians, so we won’t follow the Russians. Their religion, not ours.’ Makes sense to most people. After hearing about the slaughter of Catholics, Pope Martin V, now very close to his deathbed, considered a war against Muscovy, but was put off it for two reasons. A) Who in their right mind would want to invade Russia? B) They’re so far away that we’d probably waste all our funds just getting there. In the end, Muscovy survived. Expansion however, would prove to be hell…….no matter how many times they attempted to claim Russia for Russians. Meanwhile, to the French king’s horror, the papacy could literally order him off his throne if he wanted. He had the power to do so. The French and Castilians agreed to send forces to reinforce the Papal army.


Muscovy was not that big back then, and it didn't control Karelia and Finland. You also show a distinct “nationalist” sentiment by showing a Russian nationality: back then, such things didn't even exist. “Roman” and “Turk” and “Latin” were religious descriptions, not ethnological, and the rest were details.


When the Ottomans began to feel the effects of the assault on all sides, they realized they where in over their heads. Murad II was no fool and knew he was in over his head. He quickly arranged to send a Christian envoy to the Papacy to request a surrender, and agreed to retreat from all of Europe except their Aegean possessions and the right to maintain Bulgaria as a puppet. The Pope, exhausted from maintaining constant warfare, was quick to leap at the opportunity.


With all due respect, the Ottomans have fought bigger and much more dangerous coalitions in their history before the fall of Constantinople, and, frankly, they kicked ass most of the time. “Surrenders” were quite humiliating for them back then.
 
Martin V was elected Pope in 1417, whereas the Byzantines owned Thessalonica until 1423, when they sold it to Venice. Venice owned it until 29 March 1430, when Murad II conquered it from them. In addition, Murad II reigned from 1421 to 1444 and 1446 to 1450. In addition, in 1422, Martin V still had anti-popes to worry about, rather than Ottomans.

Well, that was an error on my part. I forgot to mention exact dates. But I believed most anti-popes where already discredited :confused:


To further detail on Murad, he was fighting a Byzantine-sponsored pretender, Mustafa Celibi, who had declared himself Sultan of Adrianople after he was delivered by the Byzantines to Ottoman hands and defeated and killed the Ottoman general Beyazid Pasha. Long story short, Murad was too busy at the start of his reign, as the Byzantines pursued their ancient and proven tactic of causing dismay in the enemy's ranks using politics. (More rebellions from Byzantine-backed brothers followed the same year.) He also had the Anatolian rival states constantly plotting against him.
Well, as this is only a rough TL and still needs tweaking/work/etc., all information is welcome. This will probably go through 1-2 rounds of tweaking before this first part is considered final.



As a historical footnote, the Byzantine Empire defeated the second Ottoman siege of Constantinople in 1422. The future pope Pius II even promoted the affordable donation of cannons to the Byzantines, whereas the Ottomans had only just secured their first cannons. Considering the number of threats and distractions around Murad, I cannot see how is this going to work, and thus, how to create a problem for Martin V to respond to in the first place. Furthermore, keep in mind that by the 1420's the real executive power was John VIII, co-emperor (heir) to Manuel II, who had been retiring for some years.
This'll mean a lot of work to rewrite. I think I'll butterfly away the future Pope and make my life easier and not have to restart from scratch. :eek: No cannons for the Byzantines.



The most commonly used and proper term is “emperor” and not merely “king.” Also, Constantine XI, incompetent or not (which is not for me to judge, but he performed quite well before he became emperor, so I would not call him “incompetent”) reigned between 1449 and 1453. At 1422, the emperor was Manuel II, with John VIII as his co-emperor. Again, Manuel II had already been retiring for some time, passing more and more powers to John.
Emperor Manuel II and Co-Emperor John VIII will receive all credit as requested. :)



Unless Venice time-travels or you have more edits in the OTL, the Venetians do not own Thessalonica in 1422. They bought it in 1423.
Again, my mistake, I forgot to include appropriate dates.



This can be argued. The dates given for the Ottoman subjugation of the Second Bulgarian Empire are both 1396 and 1422. The last town of the Tsardom, in any case, fell in 1395, which was hardly “just recently” 27 years later.
For these purposes, 1422 it is. It'll give the Pope more support.



Papal Armies really got me searching here... I could not find any clear reference to the existence of any, in fact. I have been under the impression that the Papacy has been traditionally relying in outsider help for military affairs, since it lacked the resources to raise armies under its direct command. Can you please show me your reference regarding the existence of “Papal armies?”
Well, to be completely honest, I was under the assumption that the Pope had a military, even if it was from the weak control of Papal States territory he governed.

The Pope would need feudal armies for this. Exactly why the Crusades took place, and the way they took place.

On a military note, I must remind you of the technology of the era. Mobilisations, long-range communications and the like, in the era, would take weeks at best and months at worst to be completed. Especially something like “ordering most priests to encourage young men to travel to the Papal States.”
I thought it was to be assumed that he spread the word for priests to do so and that it eventually reached most priests.


In addition, this is a feudal period, and “most young men” would be under serfdom or follow a local feudal lord (the lord following other lords, who in turn would follow the King.) Your mobilisation, as well as taxation, sounds very unlikely and unrealistic by feudal standards and the technology of the era.
Well, if the Pope ordered for a specific priest to ignite a severe revolt and the Pope ordered that said feudal lord off his seat of power or feel papal wrath, I'm fairly certain they'd be happy to oblige.


"Again I am not a hundred percent sure on this one, but among Constantinople's major grain suppliers was the Crimea, on the other side of the map than the Dardanelles. Future sultan Mehmed II built forts on both ends of the Bosporus exactly to cut off this very vital seaborne supply."

I'm fairly sure that by the time Mehmed could do this, he'd be able to fully siege a cannonless Constantinople. This will definetly help out to meat out the timeline, assuming this is true(which I will assume so)


"Most important of all is the dislike of “Latins” (Catholics) by Byzantine people in this period (a dislike that carried on for centuries and still has visible effects in modern Greece.) After the Fourth Crusade in 1204, there were not few Byzantines, including high profile ones, who backed the statement “Better the Turkish turban than the Papal tiara” due to the thievery of a crusade that sundered Byzantium."
Yet that didn't stop the emperor from offering the reunion of the churches, did it? I don't think it should stop me in this case apart from the Greeks being a lot less happy to accept Catholicism but begrudgingly doing so?


For starters, the Pope owned none of these territories to negotiate for them. Second, “Crete and all non-Ottoman, non-Venetian, non-Genoese islands and Athens” mean nothing at all, since that was pretty much all of the Aegean region plus Athens by that time, and Athens itself was under Latin (Catholic) control as an independent Duchy since 1205.
After a long, bloody, and resource-draining Balkans war centered in Greece, I'm fairly sure that any authority still there is most likely dead. Power of the butterflies.


In addition, no such thing as “Kingdom of Greece” existed before the 1830's. Also, I doubt local Catholic rulers in Central-Eastern Europe have not traditionally tried to convert rival Orthodox populace to Catholicism. Such conversions have been shown to have mixed effects, bringing both success and failure. It should be noted though that the Catholics insisted on using Latin while the Orthodox adapted the local language for liturgies, which greatly helped the spread of Orthodox Christianity.
There was no united Italy until the Romans, was there? Should the conversion go smoothly as planned, then I feel certain that this Pope could bend hands with his newfound strength to make this scenerio into existence.

Last, but not least, the Constantinople patriarch of the time was Joseph II. He attended the Council of Florence and official Ecumenical Patriarchate records I could find mention he “tried to engage in theological debate and defend the rights of the Ecumenical Patriarchate” despite the Emperor's pressure to support a union of the two churches. (Which itself was used politically by the Byzantines and half-unseriously.)
The scenerio I'm attempting unfold on the Byzantine Empire would be one where they are forced into one last act of desperation. If you've got a suggestion on how to do it otherwise, I would be happy to try to make it work.


Muscovy was not that big back then, and it didn't control Karelia and Finland. You also show a distinct “nationalist” sentiment by showing a Russian nationality: back then, such things didn't even exist. “Roman” and “Turk” and “Latin” were religious descriptions, not ethnological, and the rest were details.
Russian nationalism was being expressed for future use, as I was referring to future expansion. ;) But any other areas that use the word Russia or Russian will be removed and replaced with Slav or Slavic, and I will cut out the parts on Finland and Karelia for a later date in this TL.


With all due respect, the Ottomans have fought bigger and much more dangerous coalitions in their history before the fall of Constantinople, and, frankly, they kicked ass most of the time. “Surrenders” were quite humiliating for them back then.

If the papacy shows itself willing to go to war until the last breath to defend their new Catholics, I believed this would snowball into an enormous power base and a temporary power similar to the crusades, in where the Pope is essentially the all-powerful advisor to force many Catholic nations into sending troops. I'm not so sure the Ottomans could overcome sheer numbers and gold being thrown constantly to stop them.

EDIT 2: Done answering for the most part
 
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This'll mean a lot of work to rewrite. I think I'll butterfly away the future Pope and make my life easier and not have to restart from scratch. :eek: No cannons for the Byzantines.
I think you are being a bit naive here. On one hand you have an ancient empire, continuation of the universal Roman Empire with immense pride and history. It has already taken vast credit for stopping Islamic expansion in the past, and it's safe to assume no Westerner is dumb enough to assume the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire, the West would be able to handle stuff easily with just the Serbians in the Muslims' way. With the Western Catholicism having only just started recovering from the Western Schism, letting Constantinople fall is suicidal even for the Pope's very own plans of domination.
For these purposes, 1422 it is. It'll give the Pope more support.
Not really. Butterfly this and you have to rewrite the 1390's-1420's history of the Balkans from a scratch. Too many butterlies, borderline ASB imo. Besides, if the Ottomans had just conquered Bulgaria they would not attack Constantinople as they would be busy putting out resistance and with their succession disputes. This vastly strengthens the Byzantine position. Plus I fail to see why would the Pope receive more support.
Well, if the Pope ordered for a specific priest to ignite a severe revolt and the Pope ordered that said feudal lord off his seat of power or feel papal wrath, I'm fairly certain they'd be happy to oblige.
It's none of the Pope's business, and all you can do is ignite the Holy Roman Empire vs. Pope style conflicts much earlier than OTL. Sure, a catholic feudal power might face excommunication, but that's what Anti-Popes were for... and there is an Anti-Pope who would truly adore this.

Then you must consider how "out of fashion" crusades were at the time as well and you have a real trouble for your fictional Crusade.
I'm fairly sure that by the time Mehmed could do this, he'd be able to fully siege a cannonless Constantinople. This will definetly help out to meat out the timeline, assuming this is true(which I will assume so)
This assumes the Byzantines are dumb and forfeit their long history of diplomatic cunning to secure foreign support, steal stuff, and the like. Remember, crisis or incompetent or whatever, they do know their history and glorify their successes. There's a reason the West equated "Roman" (ie. Byzantine) with "traitor" back in this era. This continues to this day; have you heard of the phrase "byzantine politics"?
I'm fairly sure that by the time Mehmed could do this, he'd be able to fully siege a cannonless Constantinople. This will definetly help out to meat out the timeline, assuming this is true(which I will assume so)
Mehmed had to build a friggen citadel on the Byzantine coast of the Bosporus to pull this off. And even then, the blockade was not 100 percent doing its job: there are records showing that Genoese and Venetian ships made it to Constantinople to bring food and water supplies.
Yet that didn't stop the emperor from offering the reunion of the churches, did it? I don't think it should stop me in this case apart from the Greeks being a lot less happy to accept Catholicism but begrudgingly doing so?
The Patriarch was in favour of the Union, don't get me wrong. But this didn't stop the Orthodox populace from hating the Emperor and the Patriarch, and thus cause an Eastern schism. To put it simply, 1204 (the Fourth Crusade) destroyed most realistic chances of a complete Union of the two churches a la "Catholicism wins."
After a long, bloody, and resource-draining Balkans war centered in Greece, I'm fairly sure that any authority still there is most likely dead. Power of the butterflies.
You must learn that you are using a VASTLY disputed name here, for this historical eras. Byzantines always called themselves "Romans" and their land "land of the Romans" and "Roman Empire" or "Romania" or Ρωμανία in Greek (pronounced slightly differently from modern-day Romania, which is Roumania or Ρουμανία in Greek despite the common word root.)

"Greek" in the Byzantine era meant "pagann." "Roman" meant "Christian Orthodox." "Latin" meant "Catholic Christian." Finally, "Turk" meant "Muslim."

Even so, in this historical era, Byzantine scholars debated fiercly about the "Greekness of Byzantines" so to say. The logic was thus: "Ancient Greeks conquered ancient Romans with their culture, so we are rightful Romans as the descendants of those Greeks (Hellenes). As such, we are Hellenes." Even so, the formal and most public terms was "Roman Empire" and "King and Autocrat of the Romans" and "Roman people" and "Roman language" for the Byzantines. It's the West that called them "Greeks."

(Even today, "Rhomios", coming from "Rhomaios" or "Roman", is a popular name for Greeks in Greek. The formal and most widespread one is "Hellenas" or "Hellene." "Graikos" or "Greek" is much less popular than either.)
There was no united Italy until the Romans, was there? Should the conversion go smoothly as planned, then I feel certain that this Pope could bend hands with his newfound strength to make this scenerio into existence.
The conversion won't go smoothly, be that in Byzantium or other Orthodox areas. Give me a reason Byzantines should trust the treacherous Latins who sacked and destroyed their Empire, and why would Orthodox Christians should forfeit their dogma, which they follow in their home tongue, to follow a Latin-language dogma? Simply put, Catholicism is simply not appealing for the masses. Small-scale conversions would occur, and this is it.

As of a Union of the Churches, just keep in mind what happened to unpopular Roman (including Byzantine) emperors. Heard of the Nika Riots? Well, the Imperial Army isn't this strong this time around.
The scenerio I'm attempting unfold on the Byzantine Empire would be one where they are forced into one last act of desperation. If you've got a suggestion on how to do it otherwise, I would be happy to try to make it work.
Mehmet II offered Constantine XI to be safely evacuated to the Despotate of Morea and continue ruling as Roman Emperor from there, after months of siege and blockade. Constantine XI didn't accept, knowing the shame this would bring to the throne and what not, despite the fact he was effectively ruling a city-state at the time, in a much worse position than Manuel II's and John VIII's Byzantium.

Your scenario simply cannot work without the aid of ASB.
If the papacy shows itself willing to go to war until the last breath to defend their new Catholics, I believed this would snowball into an enormous power base and a temporary power similar to the crusades, in where the Pope is essentially the all-powerful advisor to force many Catholic nations into sending troops. I'm not so sure the Ottomans could overcome sheer numbers and gold being thrown constantly to stop them.
You must first get through the Orthodox objections of becoming Catholic. With centuries of hate, especially after the 1204 sack and capture of Constantinople, I sincerely doubt their "new catholics" will be all to many, or, in fact, much more than the elite of Byzantine nobility and aristocracy. And even then would there be exceptions.

The Catholic nations simply had much more serious stuff to do at the time. This includes the Hussite Wars (Holy Roman Empire, 1419-1434), as well as the Hundred Years' War (England and France, 1337-1453). These two conflicts alone rule out the three most important Catholic powers, who were the main contributors to the crusades.

In short: too many butterflies and ASB. This requires a much earlier POD or a much later point of effect. And even so, it might still have too many butterflies to be realistic.
 
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I think you are being a bit naive here. On one hand you have an ancient empire, continuation of the universal Roman Empire with immense pride and history. It has already taken vast credit for stopping Islamic expansion in the past, and it's safe to assume no Westerner is dumb enough to assume the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire, the West would be able to handle stuff easily with just the Serbians in the Muslims' way. With the Western Catholicism having only just started recovering from the Western Schism, letting Constantinople fall is suicidal even for the Pope's very own plans of domination.

I think you are right. A good POD to set the stage might be a different co-Emperor John VIII being born. For the most part, until his father's death, the policy remains identical due to the same advisors and still only being co-Emperor. If Manuel II where to perish early, John VIII(different one) could make a political blunder that isolates the Byzantines from advanced military aid(aka cannons). While you have a point in that it is Christianity's defense against Islam, making a political blunder could solve that problem, albeit a serious political blunder.


Not really. Butterfly this and you have to rewrite the 1390's-1420's history of the Balkans from a scratch. Too many butterlies, borderline ASB imo. Besides, if the Ottomans had just conquered Bulgaria they would not attack Constantinople as they would be busy putting out resistance and with their succession disputes. This vastly strengthens the Byzantine position. Plus I fail to see why would the Pope receive more support.
I was hoping to use a recently fallen Bulgaria as a rallying cry towards the Pope :(. Well, I was hoping the use the argument of when Bulgaria fell to the Ottomans to my advantage and say it was 1422 to take the full possible advantage. The peasents, who where mainly uneducated, would most likely accept papal declarations of Bulgaria officially falling(entirely) to the Ottomans in 1422 to push support to 'liberate' Bulgaria. A Pro-Popal claims peasent population has to have SOME influence on the decisions of the nobles.

It's none of the Pope's business, and all you can do is ignite the Holy Roman Empire vs. Pope style conflicts much earlier than OTL. Sure, a catholic feudal power might face excommunication, but that's what Anti-Popes were for... and there is an Anti-Pope who would truly adore this.
Point taken and accepted. I'll have to come up with something else, but of course, suggestions are welcome :eek:.

Then you must consider how "out of fashion" crusades were at the time as well and you have a real trouble for your fictional Crusade.
This assumes the Byzantines are dumb and forfeit their long history of diplomatic cunning to secure foreign support, steal stuff, and the like. Remember, crisis or incompetent or whatever, they do know their history and glorify their successes. There's a reason the West equated "Roman" (ie. Byzantine) with "traitor" back in this era. This continues to this day; have you heard of the phrase "byzantine politics"?
Well, I haven't heard that phrase but a major political blunder on the part of the Byzantines could help that. I'm thinking something that obviously involves a personal feud with the Pope. A personal feud that could be put aside in the name of politics should the need arise. Something that is incredibly offensive to Catholicism and alienates Orthodox Christians?

Mehmed had to build a friggen citadel on the Byzantine coast of the Bosporus to pull this off. And even then, the blockade was not 100 percent doing its job: there are records showing that Genoese and Venetian ships made it to Constantinople to bring food and water supplies.
With a serious political blunder on the part of the Byzantines that could work in the favor of the Papacy and the Ottomans, leading to a weaker Constantinople and a stronger Ottoman Empire(less attention to a slightly more isolated Byzantine Empire=speeding up of the securing of Mehmed's borders and throne?) that could result in a stronger Ottoman siege.

The Patriarch was in favour of the Union, don't get me wrong. But this didn't stop the Orthodox populace from hating the Emperor and the Patriarch, and thus cause an Eastern schism. To put it simply, 1204 (the Fourth Crusade) destroyed most realistic chances of a complete Union of the two churches a la "Catholicism wins."
I never planned for an outright victory of Catholicism. Romania and Serbia where areas I planned to become outright Catholic. Muscovy, Bulgaria, and large chunks of Greece forming their own branches of Orthodoxy. Many areas would be nominally Catholic, but continue discreetly have their local priests(local priests that pledge catholicism are allowed to continue their duty as priests to seal negotiations and keep the new catholics quiet?) use their language and continue some Orthodox traditions. I do not expect for this to continue forever, a Pope will eventually come along and attempt to stamp out Orthodoxic Catholics and enforce Catholicism as it should be in his views. This could lead to areas joining the reformation that where formally Orthodox. I should have made it more clear that it wasn't outright religious victory, and that it was more of a thin veil on the great majority of the population(Yes Serbia and Romania[Wallachia/Transylvania/Moldavia] will remain majority Catholic)

You must learn that you are using a VASTLY disputed name here, for this historical eras. Byzantines always called themselves "Romans" and their land "land of the Romans" and "Roman Empire" or "Romania" or Ρωμανία in Greek (pronounced slightly differently from modern-day Romania, which is Roumania or Ρουμανία in Greek despite the common word root.)

"Greek" in the Byzantine era meant "pagann." "Roman" meant "Christian Orthodox." "Latin" meant "Catholic Christian." Finally, "Turk" meant "Muslim."
I will update the spelling once I have a solid revision done, of course.

Even so, in this historical era, Byzantine scholars debated fiercly about the "Greekness of Byzantines" so to say. The logic was thus: "Ancient Greeks conquered ancient Romans with their culture, so we are rightful Romans as the descendants of those Greeks (Hellenes). As such, we are Hellenes." Even so, the formal and most public terms was "Roman Empire" and "King and Autocrat of the Romans" and "Roman people" and "Roman language" for the Byzantines. It's the West that called them "Greeks."
Well, since Greece would now be very(and I mean very) loosely Catholic, and this TL will focus primarily on Western and Central Europe, they shall be called Greeks when Catholics refer to them(or anybody in general that isn't Greek or in Greece).

(Even today, "Rhomios", coming from "Rhomaios" or "Roman", is a popular name for Greeks in Greek. The formal and most widespread one is "Hellenas" or "Hellene." "Graikos" or "Greek" is much less popular than either.)
Whenever this shifts into a Byzantine/Greek/Second Rome point of view, Hellenas will be used(It's plural, I assume?)


The conversion won't go smoothly, be that in Byzantium or other Orthodox areas. Give me a reason Byzantines should trust the treacherous Latins who sacked and destroyed their Empire, and why would Orthodox Christians should forfeit their dogma, which they follow in their home tongue, to follow a Latin-language dogma? Simply put, Catholicism is simply not appealing for the masses. Small-scale conversions would occur, and this is it.
I hope I outlined it well enough above. At the time, I believe that many Orthodox Romanians still believed in the authority of the Pope, and Serbia, surrounded by Catholics and closely related to the Croatian language and people, would eventually be influenced into Catholicism. However, like I said, true Catholics will be rare outside these two areas.

As of a Union of the Churches, just keep in mind what happened to unpopular Roman (including Byzantine) emperors. Heard of the Nika Riots? Well, the Imperial Army isn't this strong this time around.
I never planned for it to go entirely smooth as you seem to think. It would have been better of me to say, 'as smooth as changing religions because of one war gets'. Many areas will remain Orthodox in practice, yet accept the Pope. However, the main objective of this POD is that the Cardinals respect the Pope enough to carry on his views on Jews. If a veil of owning all of Europe minus Muscovy as Catholics(in name) lasts long enough then shatters and burns, then that's fine with me. I am not looking for a permanent or successful reunion in the longterm.



Mehmet II offered Constantine XI to be safely evacuated to the Despotate of Morea and continue ruling as Roman Emperor from there, after months of siege and blockade. Constantine XI didn't accept, knowing the shame this would bring to the throne and what not, despite the fact he was effectively ruling a city-state at the time, in a much worse position than Manuel II's and John VIII's Byzantium.
I am hoping that different, more idiotic John VIII can take care of this bump, if the Ottomans can increase in power enough because of an isolated Byzantine Empire, that by the time the siege rolls around, with Ottomans having cannons and not the Byzantines, that it effectively makes them a city state with the possesion of territories that are effectively under Genoease and Venetian rule, that the appereance of it is of the end of the Byzantine Empire.

Your scenario simply cannot work without the aid of ASB.
You must first get through the Orthodox objections of becoming Catholic. With centuries of hate, especially after the 1204 sack and capture of Constantinople, I sincerely doubt their "new catholics" will be all to many, or, in fact, much more than the elite of Byzantine nobility and aristocracy. And even then would there be exceptions.
I hope what I have outlined above can explain the goal in mind. However, the true thing I am missing is the political blunder of John VIII, which I have no clue on how to accomplish at this moment.

The Catholic nations simply had much more serious stuff to do at the time. This includes the Hussite Wars (Holy Roman Empire, 1419-1434), as well as the Hundred Years' War (England and France, 1337-1453). These two conflicts alone rule out the three most important Catholic powers, who were the main contributors to the crusades.
I'm certain they could still send serfs overseas, even without training/equipment, seeing as England, France, and Germany all had large populations, with papal taxes funding(minor) training and a weapon.

In short: too many butterflies and ASB. This requires a much earlier POD or a much later point of effect. And even so, it might still have too many butterflies to be realistic.
Like I said, goal in mind is not to reunite the church, prop the Byzantines up 50 more years, screw over the Ottomans, screw over Muscovy, or weaken the major Catholic states. The aim is to have the reputation of Martin V respected and his views on Jews accepted. Should he succeed, then I am fairly certain the antipopes fall with the retreat of the Ottomans for the rest of the rule of Martin V, thereforce clearing up one major obstacle(however antipopes could easily reemerge post-Martin V several years down the road in Eastern Europe......) I sincerely appreciate your advice and opinions, since reaslitic is my goal.......I might have started off with a big bite for my first TL, but I'm determined to see it through to atleast the 1800s. :cool:
 
I think you are right. A good POD to set the stage might be a different co-Emperor John VIII being born. For the most part, until his father's death, the policy remains identical due to the same advisors and still only being co-Emperor. If Manuel II where to perish early, John VIII(different one) could make a political blunder that isolates the Byzantines from advanced military aid(aka cannons). While you have a point in that it is Christianity's defense against Islam, making a political blunder could solve that problem, albeit a serious political blunder.

Not much to say here. All I have to say is that a stupid or weak emperor will become tool of the smarter... There are historical examples of emperors who were puppets of the aristocracy, the clergy, or more usually blinded and/or murdered and/or deformed and ousted from the Throne by someone smarter. A serious blunder by the throne would cost the Emperor his very throne.

And nobody is trustworthy here. Even his wife could claim the title of Empress, kill her husband and marry someone else she can control to exert her influence. Everything's pretty much been done in Byzantium at this point.

See the defeat at Mantzikert, however: Emperor taken hostage, makes peace, is ousted as soon as he returns to the capital city.

I was hoping to use a recently fallen Bulgaria as a rallying cry towards the Pope :(. Well, I was hoping the use the argument of when Bulgaria fell to the Ottomans to my advantage and say it was 1422 to take the full possible advantage. The peasents, who where mainly uneducated, would most likely accept papal declarations of Bulgaria officially falling(entirely) to the Ottomans in 1422 to push support to 'liberate' Bulgaria. A Pro-Popal claims peasent population has to have SOME influence on the decisions of the nobles.

I do not see why would Catholics would help "treacherous Romans, with their good relations with the Muslim heathens" to put it in that era's perceptive. Bulgarians were Orthodox, thus "Roman" from a religious point of view. Besides, they had much more in common with the Byzantines than the Latins, and Bulgarian tsars had always aspired to rule from Constantinople. I doubt it's easy to make it a Catholic puppet.

Uneducated peasants will go "bah, screw them, I aint risking my family and crops" and try to live in peace. Educated guys would exploit the situation to assert Bulgarian, not Byzantine or Catholic influence in the Balkans.

Well, I haven't heard that phrase but a major political blunder on the part of the Byzantines could help that. I'm thinking something that obviously involves a personal feud with the Pope. A personal feud that could be put aside in the name of politics should the need arise. Something that is incredibly offensive to Catholicism and alienates Orthodox Christians?
Here's what happens if you alienate either Byzantine nobility or Byzantine commoners, let alone both: Palace coup or popular riots and we have a change of Byzantine leaders. The new emperor then corrects past mistakes to have nothing to worry about from outside the Empire, so he can consolidate his position within the Empire. "Byzantine politics" to put it in only two words.

Byzantium had mob rule. Emperors knew that without popular support, they had no chance of ruling; without the people, they had no army; etc etc. This isn't a Western feudal state. Feudalism was never adopted by Byzantium.

With a serious political blunder on the part of the Byzantines that could work in the favor of the Papacy and the Ottomans, leading to a weaker Constantinople and a stronger Ottoman Empire(less attention to a slightly more isolated Byzantine Empire=speeding up of the securing of Mehmed's borders and throne?) that could result in a stronger Ottoman siege.

I doubt it, for aforementioned reasons. Byzantium spent little time isolated in its history, and every single time it somehow pulled something out of its arse and saved things. See the Avar-Persian coalition's fate when they attacked from both West and East and attacked Constantinople as an example. Likewise, see how badly the Arabs were defeated by the Byzantines thanks to Bulgarians (enemies of Byzantium) allying with the Byzantines, and when the Rus' allied with Byzantium to attack Bulgaria. There's always an enemy of your enemy out there, and Byzantium has survived this long because it knows that and ruthlessly exploits it as much as it can.

I find it more likely for Constantinople to pull your plan with the Pope, rather than the Pope himself actually.

I never planned for an outright victory of Catholicism. Romania and Serbia where areas I planned to become outright Catholic. Muscovy, Bulgaria, and large chunks of Greece forming their own branches of Orthodoxy. Many areas would be nominally Catholic, but continue discreetly have their local priests(local priests that pledge catholicism are allowed to continue their duty as priests to seal negotiations and keep the new catholics quiet?) use their language and continue some Orthodox traditions. I do not expect for this to continue forever, a Pope will eventually come along and attempt to stamp out Orthodoxic Catholics and enforce Catholicism as it should be in his views. This could lead to areas joining the reformation that where formally Orthodox. I should have made it more clear that it wasn't outright religious victory, and that it was more of a thin veil on the great majority of the population(Yes Serbia and Romania[Wallachia/Transylvania/Moldavia] will remain majority Catholic)

I somehow doubt this will work. The Orthodox Church was amazingly powerful; even after about 400 years of Ottoman occupation, the Orthodox Church is still amazingly powerful in Greece to this day, and this includes the Council of Florence and what not.

Whenever this shifts into a Byzantine/Greek/Second Rome point of view, Hellenas will be used(It's plural, I assume?)

Byzantine POV would be "We're goddamn Romans, you usurpers. Get off our lands, heretics."

"Hellenas" is singular form; the plural is "Hellenes." Even so, it's not a popular term in this era. It became popular only in the mid-19th Century, after Greece got independent in fact! Byzantines would use the term "Rhomaios/Rhomios" (plural "Rhomaioi/Rhomioi").

I never planned for it to go entirely smooth as you seem to think. It would have been better of me to say, 'as smooth as changing religions because of one war gets'. Many areas will remain Orthodox in practice, yet accept the Pope. However, the main objective of this POD is that the Cardinals respect the Pope enough to carry on his views on Jews. If a veil of owning all of Europe minus Muscovy as Catholics(in name) lasts long enough then shatters and burns, then that's fine with me. I am not looking for a permanent or successful reunion in the longterm.

Here's a likely Union plan: Papacy negotiates with the Byzantines and causes them diplomatic trouble to force a Union of the two churches. The Byzantines eventually accept in exchange of aid, and use the Union to regain power in the Balkans. Depending on how close cooperation between Rome and Constantinople becomes, Byzantium might rise to be a regional power once again.

In the domestic front, the Orthodox remain Orthodox whatsoever. They make minor changes in their psalms and that's it (chiefly the filioque clause and the other minor differences.) There is popular unrest, of course, like in real life. In the end, the Orthodox Church will just break away just like it did in real life, and leave nominal Catholicism.

So basically you have the "Roman Catholics" (former Roman Orthodox, ie present-day Orthodox people) and the "Latin Catholics" (present-day Roman Catholics) as the two branches of Christianity. There's too much distrust for the pope to achieve direct rule of the Eastern churches, however, or giving aid to them in the first place.

You could, however, try to make Byzantium a short-term Papal proxy, utilising its religious caste and imperial plans to reassert influence at the expense of the Ottomans. This means you have to solve issues like economic problems first (and thus somehow reduce reliance to Italians for trade; in other words, a Byzantine Navy), as well as social problems (civil wars, corruption and poverty to name a few.)

As of 1422 however I am not sure as to how much would this work. It requires major butterflies and thus unrealism. It's easier to achieve it in a pre-1204 POD where the Fourth Crusade never happens, and where Byzantium declines less (but also doesn't hate Catholic guts like hell.) That's a Papal-and-Byzantine based POD however, not a Papal POD.

I am hoping that different, more idiotic John VIII can take care of this bump, if the Ottomans can increase in power enough because of an isolated Byzantine Empire, that by the time the siege rolls around, with Ottomans having cannons and not the Byzantines, that it effectively makes them a city state with the possesion of territories that are effectively under Genoease and Venetian rule, that the appereance of it is of the end of the Byzantine Empire.

What I said earlier, plus an isolated Byzantium would not survive the Ottomans at this date. What you get from this is the Ottoman juggernaut being unleashed 31 years earlier.

I'm certain they could still send serfs overseas, even without training/equipment, seeing as England, France, and Germany all had large populations, with papal taxes funding(minor) training and a weapon.

These serfs would be rather kept at home and used as warriors on the domestic wars, or as workers for the domestic economies that function the domestic wars, so no.

Like I said, goal in mind is not to reunite the church, prop the Byzantines up 50 more years, screw over the Ottomans, screw over Muscovy, or weaken the major Catholic states. The aim is to have the reputation of Martin V respected and his views on Jews accepted. Should he succeed, then I am fairly certain the antipopes fall with the retreat of the Ottomans for the rest of the rule of Martin V, thereforce clearing up one major obstacle(however antipopes could easily reemerge post-Martin V several years down the road in Eastern Europe......) I sincerely appreciate your advice and opinions, since reaslitic is my goal.......I might have started off with a big bite for my first TL, but I'm determined to see it through to atleast the 1800s. :cool:

No need for such scheming then. This can be accomplished with political factors, and these factors could have Byzantium propelled up 50 more years or whatever as a result depending on what factors you take into account. For instance, Byzantium had many jews, especially in Thessalonica and Constantinople: happy Byzantines includes happy jews, and if you rub Byzantine back, Byzantium will rub yours.

I am sure the Byzantines would rather keep Thessalonica and find aid from abroad, than sell Thessalonica to buy aid, for example. A stronger Byzantium against Islam could then be propagated by the Pope in the home front, who will claim stuff and achieve the desired popularity. There are countless paths, really, but for me to help with ideas I need to know how far do you want his reputation to reach, and whether going Popewank or not is a goal.

You could easily have a realistic timeline where Martin focuses on the home front, and also propagates massive aid towards Byzantium or another Balkan power for the purpose of defeating Ottoman expansion. Maybe he is smart enough to see that if the Balkans fall, Catholic Europe could be next. There's always Granada and Muslim Spain as historical examples.

But why Byzantium? Because it's the most friggen theocratic nation of the era in the Balkan area, Muslim states aside. They control a Patriarch, so why not them, for the extra religious factor?
 
No need for such scheming then. This can be accomplished with political factors, and these factors could have Byzantium propelled up 50 more years or whatever as a result depending on what factors you take into account. For instance, Byzantium had many jews, especially in Thessalonica and Constantinople: happy Byzantines includes happy jews, and if you rub Byzantine back, Byzantium will rub yours.

I am sure the Byzantines would rather keep Thessalonica and find aid from abroad, than sell Thessalonica to buy aid, for example. A stronger Byzantium against Islam could then be propagated by the Pope in the home front, who will claim stuff and achieve the desired popularity. There are countless paths, really, but for me to help with ideas I need to know how far do you want his reputation to reach, and whether going Popewank or not is a goal.

You could easily have a realistic timeline where Martin focuses on the home front, and also propagates massive aid towards Byzantium or another Balkan power for the purpose of defeating Ottoman expansion. Maybe he is smart enough to see that if the Balkans fall, Catholic Europe could be next. There's always Granada and Muslim Spain as historical examples.

But why Byzantium? Because it's the most friggen theocratic nation of the era in the Balkan area, Muslim states aside. They control a Patriarch, so why not them, for the extra religious factor?

Well, my true goals, is to have Jews in good standing in Spain, so that they are not expelled by Isabella and Ferdinard. A more tolerant Pope with a good reputation could mean Ferdinard's views are tolerant, and the saint that influences Isabella is more tolerant, therefore, a more tolerant Isabella. I'm not exactly sure how well-received it would seem for the Pope to send aid to the Byzantines(more aid than usual). Another goal on the side is to make Russian expansion in the future all the more diffcult(hence Polish Jews being able to achieve good positions=stronger Poland with the power to mess with Muscovy). I don't want to give the Byzantines all that much power, seeing as I did have hopes for Ottoman expansion in Europe. Does that somewhat summarize what you where asking? :confused:
 
Well, I have a done a complete, and hopefully more realistic revision. The papacy unleashes a sick amount of funds to help the Balkan nations against the Ottomans, with the funds coming from wealthy Jews(however that Papacy actually only funds 1/2 of the war funds). The Hungarians abuse their puppet Wallachia's mineral wealth in trade with the Italian states to fund themselves. Serbia and Albania gain more gold at the expense of more influence of Venetian and Genoese influence in their states due to their lifeline of trade with them. I believe that was not mentioned in the above post, but will be mentioned in part 2.
 
Here is part 2, in a different format. :)

Constantinople, March 1429

The war had been ongoing for 7 long, harsh years. Demetrius Papacavar was one of the few men that could recall living in the capital of the Roman Empire for over 8 years. Almost all of the men who where serving with him where immigrants from Italy and Southern Greece. Although he had a better impression of South Greeks that Italians, immigrants where immigrants, and he disliked them. He did not know why immigrants would come to Constantinople while it was under constant siege by the Turks, infact, he hardly communicated with the Latins at all. Many where poorer men who only knew agriculture, from what he could understand. He, himself, a Roman, was descended from a priest, hence the suffix Papa- in his last name, however, his fight was no longer for god, or the emperor. He fought for his freedom against the Turks. Rumors and stories came in constantly with the Venetians and Genoese who shipped supplies to Constantinople, telling of what the Turks had done to Thessalonica after capturing it. The rumor was that they looted anything of value, raped and then killed any woman they found to be desirable, then proceeded to burn it down to the ground. This greatly angered the South Greeks from that area, and all he could do to consolidate them was to tell them that revenge would soon come. Not the best idea to make his fellow soldiers feel better, but it was the best he had. For several years he had been trained harshly and to the extremes to become a warrior since the age of 15. He was now 22 and had been performing cannon and night watch duties routinely. He was experienced with hand cannons, having been around them since he was 17, when the first batch arrived on Papal charity.

At the beginning of his arduous training, he had been worked till late at night at the farms of Constantinople to help him build strength. During the mornings, he would train with crossbows and swords, and during the days he would be taught and eventually perform night watch duties. This routine continued until he was 17, for when he awoke, there was a commotion outside the barracks, and the generals where ordering them all awake. After getting up quickly, he had ran outside to see the commotion. The commotion turned out to be a giant, metal cylinder attached to two wheels facing towards a target. He had heard stories about these metal cylinders and cautiously kept his distance. These monstrosities could kill him before he could blink. He had seen much bigger versions of cannons before when patrolling at night, but they had all been unmovable. This one was transportable. Even more so, it was also much thinner than the other cannons he had seen, and he assumed, much lighter too.

The commander in charge had been explaining that they would learn to operate these cannons, termed ’light artillery’ where mobile, accurate pieces of machinery that where generous donations from the Pope, at these words, the Italians cheered but where quickly hushed and the commander continued. “These are made to blast troops, not walls, unlike what we have at the present. These are mobile enough to be taken with us should we ever launch a counterstrike against the Turks. These are also more advanced than the Turk’s cannons in that they are mobile, accurate, and lightweight, but equally as deadly. This cannon can fire thrice before a Turkish cannon can fire once, which should result in our favor. You will all learn how to use these, for future purposes. In addition, we would also like to introduce you to another similar weapon that is easy to carry by hand. These shall replace longbows and crossbows, for the most part, as your choice of weapon of war. There are two variants, one which are fired at a distance, and while much stronger, require two people, and one that can be carried by hand and shot by a single man. These weapons can decimate even platemail, and will be used against the Turks, who currently do not employ these against us, although that is expected to change within time. Proceed with your daily duties until tomorrow morning, when you will all meet me here early, and shall be divided into three groups, and taught how use all 3 combustion weapons.”

He still remembered it clearly. The next day, he had been assigned his own personal hand gun, with a wooden handle of oak, had been interesting to him, to say the least. He had practiced with it until he could accurately fire it in his sleep. He was also adept at cannons, however, he was not very good at using 2-man hand cannons. He was a man of little social interaction, and working with loud-mouth Sicilians was something he could barely tolerate, which often resulted in a horribly slow shot compared to other groups of 2. However, thankfully, he would be leading a unit of 300 men, all with hand cannons, to fight a Turkish group of 500 men, by estimates, in southwestern Constantinople. They would be reinforced by 1000 men with cannons that would blast them while their unit would attack in the chaos. The cannons had been readily placed outside Constantinople, in the dead of the night, so that they would not suspect it. Infact, all of Constantinople’s walls had cannons with men waiting in the shadows, ready to fire. A signal would be passed on by the patrolling men on the walls, by the means of an instrument, to alert the men to strike. Overall, it was estimated that 15,000 men had been deployed against the Ottoman forces of 20,00, by modern historians, however, that is not taking into account the 4.000 men, by estimates, that where manning cannons all around Constantinople’s walls. At sunset, when the sun was still visible yet not hurting the eyes of the Romans, the horn sounded. Anywhere from 500 to 1500 cannons where being fired, approximately 5,000-10,000 shots an hour where being launched, according to historians. Demetrius blew on his own, very high-pitched whistle as hard as he could, ordering the men to strike. Leading the charge on horseback, he rushed towards the confused, dazed, and most likely injured Turks with lust in his blood. Taking aim, he fired thrice into a crowd of Turks that where rushing at him, and then fired a 4th time, this time into the air, and quickly backtracked away. 15 seconds later, several rounds where shot at the group from cannons, and 9 of the 10 men where mortally wounded or dead. Demetrius signaled to his support of 10 men on foot to follow him, and went towards the oncoming, yet loosely organized and still rather confused Turks that where rushing at him and his men, and ordered them all to fire. Standing their ground, they took aim at heads and chests and killed half of all those targeted within the first few shots. The ones who managed to reach them where wounded, yet they where still highly professional Turkish military men. With swords in hands, they quickly hacked 3 of Demetrius’s 10 men to the ground, while the other men continued to fire and pulled out their swords. At close quarters, using a hand cannon could accidentally kill a fellow troop. Overcome by numbers, the Turks where killed and all hand cannons of the fallen Roman soldiers gathered. It was an explicit order to keep weapons as far away from the Turk’s hands as possible. With a glance at his men, Demetrius roared for blood and vengeance and dashed towards more enemies, his men in tow.
 
Installment 3 of ???:


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Historians now generally agree that the Battle of Constantinople was one of the most decisive battles in Byzantine history. The battle lasted 3 days, the last day mainly being used to destroy any disorganized, scattered, lone Ottoman troops that remained. Cannons where now infamous; the cannons of Constantinople where considered the elite cannon by the end of the year, and the Papacy was frequently being approached about purchasing cannons from them. A money-craving Pope was happy to sell cannons to most monarchs, for a fee of course. The One Hundred Years’ War was still ongoing between France and England, so the French and English where willing to accept terms for when the next round of clashes would come. The French and English where to pay a fixed amount of gold per cannon, in addition to sending one man to Constantinople per cannon.

It is estimated that up until the late 1400s, the French and English bought anywhere from 1,000 to 2,000 cannons before they created their own cannon-making industries that could compete with Papal and Byzantine quality. The men that where sent to Constantinople where made into farm laborers to work the fields of the recently acquired territory surrounding Constantinople. The English allowed the men’s wives to travel with them to Constantinople, however, the French did not. The demographic impact, however, was large. By this time, Constantinople’s population was only 50% native, the rest being made up of other Greeks, South Italians, and small communities of Iberian volunteers and French and English laborers. The military was made up mostly of foreigners, with Roman natives being the ones commanding the military.

One major reason that the Ottomans where so easily toppled from Constantinople was the by the declaration of war by the Karamanid Emirate on the Ottoman Empire. The Karamanid Emirate was a rather large and rather powerful Emirate in Eastern Anatolia that bordered the Ottoman Empire. They had been mostly hostile for a long time, and the borders had been heavily guarded. However, with the outbreak of strong resistance to Ottoman rule in Greece, and a re-ignited revolt in Bulgaria, the Ottoman forces where stretched thinly and the Ottomans where unable to stop the siege of Constantinople from crumpling.

The Ottomans, because of their paranoia of being stabbed in the back while their back was turned to the Balkan peninsula, hadn’t sent troops to reinforce the siege force and where now regretting it. It is probably true that the Romans would have been forced back into Constantinople should the Karamanid Emirate not have joined the war. Upon hearing of the collapse of the siege, Murad II ordered half of the soldiers positioned near the Ottoman-Karamanid border to head to Constantinople and reestablish the siege, then proceed to put down the revolts by any means possible. What he didn’t know was that the Byzantines and the Papacy had been negotiating with the Karamanids to join the war.

Truth be told, the Karamanids planned to join anyway when it was strategically best. However, the Byzantines promised them the right to all of the Ottoman Empire that was not in Europe or Iberia(Caucasus) and that farther than 100km from the Aegean Sea or 50km from the Black Sea, however, their western and eastern borders would go horizontally northwards until they reached the Black Sea, to allow them to benefit from the trade. They where also to receive trade benefits from Constantinople. The Papacy(as in Martin V) did not approve of such close relationships and strategy with a Muslim nation but (a lot of) pressure from the cardinals resulted in grudging acceptance.

In addition, the Venetians and Genoese where not informed of the preferential trade agreements that Constantinople would receive. Had they known, they would have left the war effort immediately, for once it started, it would never end. Both parties involved knew very well that close to free trade would enable the Byzantines to nearly monopolize the spice trade.

On September 1, 1432, the Karamanid Emirate declared war on the Ottoman Empire and launched a full-scale assault northwards to reach the Black Sea, where the Polish had agreed to act as a middleman to supply the Karamanids with basic hand cannons and cannons, and happily supply them with food in exchange for spices. When the Karamanids had started invading, Ottoman forces where just reaching what was known to the Turks as Balikesir(IOTL) when news reached them.

Mehmed II ordered the division of the reinforcements, one to be sent to reestablish the siege, the other to intercept the Karamanids and destroy their forces. As anyone could imagine, when your nation is surrounded, you have to make a decision. It was obvious he had made a bad choice in sending his troops to Constantinople, when Greece was virtually lost to him, and Bulgaria soon following. He was being besieged in the back by the Karamanid dogs, and he knew at this rate he could soon find himself a Sultan without a throne. It was a difficult choice, but he decided to cut his losses.

After a few hours of though, it was time to make a decision. He told his messenger to fly the flag of truce to Rome so that he could negotiate with the Papacy.

Fastforward to several days later, with the Roman Emperor, the Pope, Sultan Mehmed II, and the Kings of Hungary, Serbia, Albania, and representatives for Genoa and Venice.
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I hope that so far, you are finding my timeline realistic. :D However, I am having an extreme amount of difficulty on expanding on what will happen to the Karamanid Emirate. So, I have decided to let anyone interested(anyone? please? :() to vote on what will happen to the emirate.

Your two options are as following:

A) The Byzantines, motivated by greed and the idea of no more Ottomans making them giddy, decide that no matter how many people are lost, eradicating the Ottomans monopolizing half the spice trade is in their best interests. No one is aware of why the Byzantines fight on, however, they do indeed manage to eventually, after the withdrawal of Genoa and Venice once they figure out what is happening, crush the Ottomans and fulfill their expansionist wet dream.

B) The Genoese and Venetians discover about the goals of the Byzantines in regards to the spice trade and manage to convince the Pope to end supplies for the Byzantines, ending the war in Europe and turning it into a Byzantine & Karamanid vs. Ottoman war, which could really go either way, have the Ottomans be wiped out, or have them survive, after losing much territory and prestiege(but still scaring the crap out of everybody with their military skilszorz when properly militarized).

I plan to have these along the entire length of the timeline. Should a mod see this, could they add "NOWPOLLING:" to the beginning of the thread title? Although I don't have my hopes up......

Feel free to post any other suggestions for what should happen in Anatolia. Note, the Ottomans are surrending in Europe regardless to cut their losses and defend home base regardless. Controlling the Aegan isn't out of the question though....
 
I got impatient on waiting and realized no one would post, so I went with bye bye Karamanids and had the Ottomans go on a killing spree and annex all of Anatolia. Please bear in mind, I'm using 1401 European borders as the basis for which the Papacy will sort territory. Anyway, here comes the end results of the Treaty of Athens.


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PART 4 of ?:

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The Balkans, by any observer’s perceptive, was a complete mess. The Byzantines where roaring to own Greece, supported by the Papacy(many cardinals where against giving Athens to the Byzantines, but of course, increased Islamophobia because of Ottoman wars of annexation in Anatolia won out because of Martin V, so Athens went straight to the Byzantines).

Serbs, Romans, Hungarians, Bulgarians, and Albanians where all arguing over what to do with Thrace. Albania was having a large dispute with Albania over Kosovo, Hungary demanded territory for it’s puppet, Wallachia, and the Byzantines felt like giving them the ‘Μέσο δάχτυλο’ to all other Balkan powers.

Naturally, the Papacy was the one that issued the decrees, which was accepted by the Byzantines, Serbs, and Hungarians but disliked by Bulgarians, Romanians, natives of Macedon, and Albanians. The biggest winner was for certain, the Empire of the Romans.

All the territories of the former Bulgarian Empire(2nd) where to be ceded to the Byzantines. The principality of Karvuna was to be split between Venice and Genoa. Venice would receive everything north of Pangalia and Genoa everything south of Pangalia. Pangalia itself was to be it’s own independent Duchy(of course, from the Palaiologos dynasty).

According to the Papacy, everything 50 miles north of Karvana, from the Black Sea, in a straight line until it reaches Silistra, along the Danube to Vidin, to the outskirts of Nis, south to Strumika and in a straight line towards Didymotechio and to the Black Sea was now, and forever, Bulgaria. All of Bulgaria was officially swallowed into the Roman state.

In addition, everything that bordered the Aegean east of Thessalonica that is nor part of Bulgaria(AKA Thrace) was officially to be part of the Byzantine state. All Aegean islands not owned by a Latin or Catholic power where formally incorporated into the Empire.

Serbia was to retain Kosovo and expand southwards to Prilep. The border was to be determined at the Haliacmon river, and the borders with the Byzantines and Albanians was to be final. Albania was to return to it’s borders in 1401.

In addition, The Duchy of Athens, which was by now completely destroyed after such a bloody war, was to be given to the Byzantine Empire, along with any other territory not controlled by the Latin Powers that was in Greece. Montenegro was to be officially annexed to Serbia.

Croatia, for not following the will of the Pope and aiding the Serbs and Hungarians, would cede everything east of the Sava River to Hungary. In addition, everything south of the Una tributary was to be ceded to Bosnia and Serbia. Everything North of Omis was to go to Bosnia, everything South was to go to Serbia.

All that was left of Croatia was a rump state that the Venetians had economic domination over. Croatia could not protest these indignities to it’s sovereignty, as a highly militarized Hungary and Serbia could easily march on them and take even more territory. The effects this would have later on would make future Popes shudder, however, that is later and will not be noticeable until it is too late.

Meanwhile, in Wallachia, Alexandru I Aldea was to officially declare Vlad Tepes(1), his newborn son, his successor for the crown. Thus the Edict of Athens was born. The winners, Hungary, the Byzantines, and the Serbs, where overjoyed. The losers, the Croatians and independent Greek states, not much so.

Croatia was a rump, Greek states where united into one, it all seemed to be too good to be true(in papal eyes). While the papacy hadn’t liked the idea of disemboweling Catholic Croatia, the only reason Martin V was Pope right now was because of the King of Hungary, Holy Roman Emperor. Much arm bending indeed.

Tragedy struck a few months later, when, Pope Martin V was found dead in his study, a rosary in his hand. He was truly mourned in Hungary, Belgrade, and Constantinople, but cheered in Bulgaria and Croatia. Of course, the Great Pope Martin V wasn’t immune to death, no one is.

Many loyal Catholics at the time believed it was because he had finished serving his mission to God on earth, and it was time for him to join God for his great deeds and defending Christianity. His legacy would continue to carry weight for atleast a century to come.

(1): Vlad Tepes, Vlad III, or Vlad the Impaler, is the one who inspired the famous novel Dracula. My sick sick mind says, Impaler will only be the beginning of it.


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I hope anyone who actually finds my timeline interesting enjoys this. I certainly enjoyed writing it up and checking up on my geography. :D
 
The Ottomans will just do what they did to Europe IOTL 50 years later(I think). Probably control the Crimea, Bulgaria/Romania, South Greece, and maybe the Caucasus. But that's far, far future. The next part of the TL is gonna focus on the butterflies from Pro-Jewish Pope Martin V.
 
I was bored on a Friday Night.......:rolleyes: This is only 4.5, and not the full update. The full update will get a lot more detail, a lot more notes, and a lot more dialog(since there is none)
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Part 4.5 of ???


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*NOTE: Pope Martin V died in March of 1435.

After the Pope’s death, Europe returned into a mode of interest as the Hapsburgs inherited the Crown of Hungary and united Austria and Hungary in a weak dynastic marriage, and Austria was suddenly a power for while it lasted. Poland looked on with shifty eyes. Hungary and Austria had historically antagonized Poland for land. It would not be a shock to see them do so again. In Western Europe, the 100 Year’s War was reaching a climax point and all nations looked on with interest.

As usual, Iberian and German politics provided the main events. Austria’s sudden growth in strength made her the dominant nation in the HRE, only surpassed by the Holy Roman Emperor himself in terms of power in Germany. In Italy and Iberia, Antisemitism was taking a strange shape. Many people that regularly went to church either heard a priest preach Jewish acceptance or preach the continuation of prejudice against the non-believers of Christ, claiming that a man without Jesus cannot be saved, while the Pro-Semitists declared that in time, Jews would adopt Catholicism as the Pagans took Christianity.

In the end, most states, notably Castile, Aragon, and the Northern Italian states accepted the views that Jews might one day become Catholics while other states such as Portugal and Naples(despite being a possession of Aragon) maintained their beliefs on Jews. While it was not what the wealthy and by now, dead Jewish men that had funded the Pope had hoped for, it was indeed an improvement. Generally, Southern France, England, and Northern Germany(in general) accepted the Pro-Semitist belief of some priests, while Northern France, Scotland, Southern Germany, and Poland carried on with their belief of Jewish inferiority.

In the Balkans, all was stable, for the most part. In 1463, Croatia was formally split between the Republic of Venice and Hungary, giving Hungary access to the Adriatic Sea. Hungarian power continued to grow as the Hungarians turned Bosnia into a puppet, debatably, in 1462 or 1463. The Rumanian states where puppets of Hungary at this time as well. Southwards, Hungary enjoyed good relations with the Romans and Serbs, who themselves had managed to puppetize the Albanian nation because of it’s small size and relative weakness in relation to Serbia.

The Byzantines, meanwhile, had been busy reestablishing themselves on the Crimean peninsula(after promising the Genoese and Venetians that any economic interests they had in the Crimea would go unmolested). The Crimea was formally annexed in 1467 as a province of the Romans. The Byzantines had also been busy defending the Balkan peninsula. Most Aegean islands had some form of minor fortifications, and Greater Constantinople itself was highly set up with fortresses, cannons, and a highly trained guard. What the Ottomans had done to Byzantium would always haunt the Romans and never let them lower their guard again.

In Western Asia, the Ottoman Empire had gone on a war against the Southern Kingdoms and Egypt. The Ottomans, hungry for a second round with the Christians, happily took out their anger on the Egyptian-controlled Holy Land and forced all Christians southwards. It is believed now that most traveled along the Red Sea into Yemen. Thankfully for the Jewish population, almost no nation save the Byzantines where aware of how the Papacy amassed enough funds to save the Byzantines.

The Ottomans rolled southwards and forced the Egyptians into the Sinai Peninsula, where they declared their objectives satisfied and proceeded to annex the Levent. When the Ottomans are mad, you have to be insane to oppose them. Most rulers accepted the Ottoman turban as their ruler, and the few kingdoms that did where quickly overrun. Eastward, Persia looked warily at the Osmons……[1]

Meanwhile, in non-political matters, the printing press was revolutionizing Europe ever since it’s mass adoption in 1450. Literacy rates where booming, interest in literature picked up, and most importantly, the spread of ideas. This would lead to the Renaissance……[2]

FASTFORWARD TO 1469, THE MARRIAGE OF FERDINARD OF ARAGON AND ISABELLA OF CASTILE


Excerpt from, ‘A History of Spain’ by Antonio Zapatero:

“The unification of Spain at it’s most important point was in 1469, when the dynastic marriage of Ferdinard of Aragon to Isabella of Castile resulted in the unification of Iberia, save Portugal, and of course, the Muslim Kingdom of Granada in Southern Spain. What is remarkable of this, is that, for the first time since the Romans, Iberia was united into one visibly dominant country that was overnight a Great Power. Over the course of their joint rule of Spain, Isabella and Ferdinard conquered the Canary Islands, Granada, and most famously of all, funded the expedition of Christopher Colombus and the discovery of the New World. However, one significant thing that has been argued was, ‘Why where the Muslims expelled from Spain and not the Jews?’ Some argue that it was the minister of finance of Spain that convinced the King and Queen to not expell them, who himself was Jewish but was in a safe position. Others argue that it was because Jews where the ones who gave vibrant activity to the Economy of Spain.

However, the most widely accepted is that Catholicism had become more tolerant of Jews, in addition to the above, allowed the Jews to stay in Spain and continue to follow their faith unmolested, for the most part. This is given credit to the Portuguese guide of Isabella, who later became a saint. She strictly followed Rome and it’s orders, which carried on to Isabella, allowing her to put favorable pressure to allow Jews to stay. However, Muslims, with Islamophobia being preached from Rome as loudly and clearly as possible, resulted in the absolute decision of expelling or converting all Muslims in Spain. However, Isabella and Ferdinard knew that if Jews where the right lung of the Spanish economy, the Muslims where the left lung. Ferdinard allowed all Muslim convers(in name) to stay and was happy to deport all who continued to follow Islam to Morroco.

He and his wife now had peace in Iberia, a large, vast, colonial empire in the New World which had just been discovered(in the name of Castile), and the economy was stable. Spain was unopposed in Iberia and Italy with the Pope’s blessings. Nothing could go wrong, at this rate."
[3]

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[1] Since for now, the Ottomans have been denied the prizes in Europe, they will focus on the Caucasus, Arabia, North Africa, and any poor sucker of a nation north of the Caucasus. Hint hint :p ?

[2] The Renaissance is mostly the same, save for a few minor points. Buda and Constantinople are considered the centers of the Eastern Renaissance, since it is at the time very stable and has a direct effect on the Renaissance, since, after all, Greeks=Remains of what the Renaissance glorifies, and A LOT of people will migrate over believing Greece to be paradise. Most European cities will see growth in population, but especially the Byzantines.

[3] Of course, once Spain becomes part of Charles V's power, alongside the Netherlands, Germany, Hungary, and parts of Italy.......well, things will get interesting. Hungary w/Naples, anyone? Austria will remain to about the same power of Bavaria, simply because the Reformation will be nasty in Austria....

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I promise, I'll get this update meatened out and add the other .5 to this over the weekend. I can't simply leave the Renaissance and the unification of Spain unglorified. :eek:

EDIT: I am currently in the process of doing an entire rewrite to make it much more interesting and easier to understand. I will be getting rid of several run-on sentences, placing dates more clearly, making more notes, etc. I'll be adding more meat into this as well. I should be done by Wednesday at the latest.
 
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This is the newly redone version of the TL. I'm going to make a new thread once I finish editing what I have so far, because this thread has become rather cluttered, and I think the original version might turn some people off.
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WHAT A FRIENDSHIP CAN DO

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POD: Martin V meets Jews that leave a positive impression on him throughout his life. He never publicly talks about this, thus allowing him to obtain the same positions he held IOTL, however, when he ascends the Papacy, he puts his opinion to work.

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PART 1 OF ???: December 10th, 1417


Excerpt from, ‘The Religion of Europe in the 15th Century’ by Alejandro de Toledo:


‘Shortly after ascendancy to Pope, Martin V began to contact several wealthy Jewish businessmen about considering giving massive amounts of funds to the Papacy in exchange for issuing an edict to make actively persecution Jews heresy. Many where skeptical at first and only half attended the first meeting hosted in Venice by Martin V. While we have no official source, deduction has allowed us to conclude that the Pope truly wanted to offer this to the Jews from his own personal interests and not true Papal interests. While we have no idea what exactly Pope Martin V may have said to convince the businessmen, most walked out convinced to fund the Pope should the cardinals accept his proposal publicly, as revealed in later memoirs. According to these memoirs, Martin V asked them to spread what they had discussed with other wealthy Jews who might be interested in such a proposal, and to gather them in another meeting, also secret from the cardinals.’


…..“Pope Martin V walked a thin line, while there where no more anti-Popes actively opposing him anymore, he was a new Pope, one that could be ousted should the cardinals see it in their interests to stop his pro-Jewish attitude and reignite the Schism. Thank the lord he was right.”……..

Sonia de Toledo, Speech in Rome, 1994

‘Therefore, all meetings where secret. To the Pope‘s credit, he discussed how to bypass this problem with his Jewish compatriots, almost all very well educated. They decided that exploiting the recent clashes in the Balkans by the Muslim power of the Ottoman Empire. While the Pope personally had as neutral an attitude towards Muslims as it was possible at the time, he was indifferent to what may happen to the Turks should his goals succeed. Pope Martin V, as the Pope, could not let the Ottomans advance without losing support, adding his pro-Jewish attitude to his indifference to Ottoman expansion could easily get him considered a heretic by the cardinals. Therefore, he planned to play a balancing act. He would fight to stop Muslim expansion while he passed his Pro-Jewish decree to counterbalance each other and maintain his power. However, they, at the moment, did not have a reason to declare war on the Ottoman Empire. The meeting was ended with a complex system of communication arranged, with funds constantly streaming into a personal fund heavily guarded by the Papacy. These funds where kept hidden from the cardinals and amassed until 1421, when the time finally came…..’



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PART 2 OF ???: July, 1422

The Byzantine Empire had long had a history of interfering with it’s neighbors. It was Byzantine politics, all the usual. When the succession crisis in the Ottoman Empire ended and Murad II assumed full control of the Ottoman realm, he chose to make the Byzantine Empire pay for their interferences. The Siege of Constantinople began in 1422, with the aim of permanently crippling the Byzantine state and ending all of their future interference in Balkan and Ottoman affairs. Murad II ordered the marching of his new Falconets out to the battlefield to destroy the Byzantines. Thankfully for the Byzantines, the Ottomans where inexperienced with cannons while the Byzantines had possessed their for years, and managed to break the siege. Angered, the Ottomans sent more forces to Thessalonica, the 2nd most important city in the Byzantine realm. They decided to maintain the siege at Constantinople and ordered the transferal of troops from the borders of the Karamanid Emirate into Constantinople to reinforce the siege. At this point, Constantinople was in crisis. Only one thing could have possibly saved the Byzantines now.

Excerpt from, ‘The Religion of Europe in the 15th Century’ by Alejandro de Toledo

‘When the chance appeared for the Papacy to oppose the Ottomans in the Siege of Thessalonica, the Pope ordered a rather hasty meeting to be arranged between himself and his acquaintances, and within a month, had come to an agreement on how to spend the money and aid the Byzantines. It was later revealed in the Treaty of Athens that originally,
1-The Byzantines would receive new cannons, new hand cannons, new men to fight, new men to produce food, and funds to pay off their debts
2-The Church would not use it’s own funds to pay for the war
3-Neither Jews nor the Papacy would actually fight in the war
4-Should the Byzantines drive off the Ottomans, the Pope will issue an Edict calling active persecution of the Jews heresy
5-The Patriarch of Constantinople will actively preach acceptance of the Pope as the closest thing to god to all strands of Orthodoxism
6-Should the Edict be issued, all money transfer between the Jews and the Papacy cannot be recalled

After negotiations where completed between the Pope and the Jewish businessmen, Pope Martin V organized the cardinals into Rome and delivered a speech that emphasized the importance of stopping Islamic expansion and what the effects could be to Christianity should Constantinople fall. He emphasized vicious lies about what the Ottomans where doing to Bulgaria and Thrace, and how Albania, Athens, Rumania, and Serbia would soon fall afterwards should Constantinople fall. He also revealed that he had contacted the Emperor of the Romans about the possibility of religious reunion of the churches. Much to the astonishment of the cardinals, the Pope fibbed that he had secured a guarantee from the Emperor that should Byzantium be saved, that it would be so.

No cardinal dared to oppose the reunion of East and West, so almost all cardinals sided with the Papacy, and with the full support of the church, Pope Martin V had a messenger sail on boat to Constantinople on a Venetian ship and deliver his message to the Emperor. The Emperor had no true reason to oppose this(Only agreements 1, 2, 3, and 5 where revealed to the Byzantines), seeing as using religious reunification as a bargaining chip was a Byzantine tradition, and they accepted. The Papacy began to build the industry needed to produce cannons and hand cannons almost the night after the messenger returned, bought large supplies of gunpowder, and began to conscript(read, shove people onto boats) and send them to Constantinople. However, a problem quickly arose. The Papacy had close to no navy, and a boat was sunk every other time one approached Constantinople by the Ottoman Navy. The only solution, at the time, was to contact the Venetians and Genoese.’


The Papacy began negotiations, stating that the Venetians and Genoese would not actually fight in the war, that they would only run supply lines for the Papacy and other nations that decided to aid the Byzantines. They would supply food, weapons, ammunition, and men to the Byzantines. At the mention of supplying men, negotiations turned sour and they refused. The Papacy decided to allow the Venetians and Genoese to ship non-Genoese and non-Venetians to Constantinople, and not actually send citizens of Venice and Genoa to Constantinople.

Venice and Genoa accepted, and soon, Constantinople found itself with a strange demographic scenario. At the start of the siege, there where only 75,000 people in Constantinople, and the Jewish intellects had decided that the best way to have the Byzantines hold out the longest was to have them become self-sufficient in food. 75,000 people could hardly hold up against the Ottoman forces when roughly 15,000 of them where soldiers in the army, another 5,000 where merchants, 5,000 artisans, and the rest peasants. Therefore, they had deduced that manual labor was what was truly needed, both to defend and sustain Constantinople. Soon, Southern Greeks from the Italian republic’s colonies and Southern Italians from poor and rural Naples and Sicily where being shipped to Constantinople and being set up as laborers and soldiers. Since the transportation of men started in September of 1423 and the end of the war in 1435, there where roughly 125,000 more people in Constantinople than there where at the start. Roughly half the population was foreign. ¼ of the population spoke Neapolitian or Sicilian. Much later, these languages would eventually mix into what would be known as Greek Italian.

Meanwhile, the Ottomans had been busy experimenting with new cannons. After the failure of the Falconets in crippling Constantinople, Murad II had ordered the making of the exact opposite of the Falconet. A long, narrow cannon called Thunderers, named so because of the large booms they made when fired, similar to thunder. Murad II found these to be useful when trying to accurately shoot, and ordered the making of more. However, these larger cannons where much more heavier than the Falconets, and also required more metal. They proved their worth, however, when they where successfully used to break into Thessalonica and take control of the city in 1425.

Feeling that victory was near in Constantinople, Murad II began the invasion of Albania and of Serbia, hungrily began to eye Wallachia and Hungary. Albania was almost overrun by the superior Turk forces and Serbia was bitterly losing, mile by mile, making the Turks pay blood every step of the way. When news reached Pope Martin V, he was actually overjoyed. He ordered another meeting between his Jewish sponsors and himself and they agreed to give Albania large amounts of cannons to dig itself in and bleed the Ottomans, and to arm Serbia with modern hand cannons and some abandoned or weakly guarded Falconets that the Byzantines had pirated while raiding the Ottoman forces outside Constantinople. The Serbs where shipped 50 Falconets and several men soon founded cannon-making industries in Belgrade, allowing the Serbs to stop the Ottomans at Krusevac, and push them back slightly.

Surprise soon overtook the Ottomans as they started losing ground towards Serbia. Even more troops where sent out to stop the Serbs and it soon reached a bloody standstill at Leskovac. The Papacy soon contacted Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor and King of Hungary[1], to join the war and promised funds and the industries to build cannons and hand cannons. Hungary declared war on the Ottoman Empire on April of 1427. The Hungarians rapidly advanced as far as Sardica before they met resistance. The Ottomans scrambled to organize a two-front defense against the Hungarians and Serbs, and where pushed back onto Phillopolis and Serrhae. Their territory in peninsular Greece was basically cut off from them when the Venetians began a naval blockade while the Albanians and Serbs cleaned up any remaining forces in Greece. Meanwhile, as the Ottoman forces got into order and started to make minor advances, the Byzantines pressed their advantage.

[1]: The Papacy requested that Croatia join the war, and Croatia refused, by diplomatic error, in one of the worst possible ways to insult the Papacy, which results in what will happen to Croatia.

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PART 3 OF ???:

Constantinople, March 1430

The war had been ongoing for 9 long, harsh years. Demetrius Papacavar was one of the few men that could recall living in the capital of the Roman Empire for over 9 years. Almost all of the men who where serving with him where immigrants from Italy and Southern Greece. Although he had a better impression of South Greeks that Italians, immigrants where immigrants, and he disliked them. He did not know why immigrants would come to Constantinople while it was under constant siege by the Turks, infact, he hardly communicated with the Latins at all. Many where poorer men who only knew agriculture, from what he could understand. He, himself, a Roman, was descended from a priest, hence the suffix Papa- in his last name, however, his fight was no longer for god, or the emperor. He fought for his freedom against the Turks. Rumors and stories came in constantly with the Venetians and Genoese who shipped supplies to Constantinople, telling of what the Turks had done to Thessalonica after capturing it. The rumor was that they looted anything of value, raped and then killed any woman they found to be desirable, then proceeded to burn it down to the ground. This greatly angered the South Greeks from that area, and all he could do to consolidate them was to tell them that revenge would soon come. Not the best idea to make his fellow soldiers feel better, but it was the best he had. For several years he had been trained harshly and to the extremes to become a warrior since the age of 15. He was now 22 and had been performing cannon and night watch duties routinely. He was experienced with hand cannons, having been around them since he was 17, when the first batch arrived on Papal charity.

At the beginning of his arduous training, he had been worked till late at night at the farms of Constantinople to help him build strength. During the mornings, he would train with crossbows and swords, and during the days he would be taught and eventually perform night watch duties. This routine continued until he was 17, for when he awoke, there was a commotion outside the barracks, and the generals where ordering them all awake. After getting up quickly, he had ran outside to see the commotion. The commotion turned out to be a giant, metal cylinder attached to two wheels facing towards a target. He had heard stories about these metal cylinders and cautiously kept his distance. These monstrosities could kill him before he could blink. He had seen much bigger versions of cannons before when patrolling at night, but they had all been unmovable. This one was transportable. Even more so, it was also much thinner than the other cannons he had seen, and he assumed, much lighter too.

The commander in charge had been explaining that they would learn to operate these cannons, termed ’light artillery’ where mobile, accurate pieces of machinery that where generous donations from the Pope, at these words, the Italians cheered but where quickly hushed and the commander continued. “These are made to blast troops, not walls, unlike what we have at the present. These are mobile enough to be taken with us should we ever launch a counterstrike against the Turks. These are also more advanced than the Turk’s cannons in that they are mobile, accurate, and lightweight, but equally as deadly. This cannon can fire thrice before a Turkish cannon can fire once, which should result in our favor. You will all learn how to use these, for future purposes. In addition, we would also like to introduce you to another similar weapon that is easy to carry by hand. These shall replace longbows and crossbows, for the most part, as your choice of weapon of war. There are two variants, one which are fired at a distance, and while much stronger, require two people, and one that can be carried by hand and shot by a single man. These weapons can decimate even platemail, and will be used against the Turks, who currently do not employ these against us, although that is expected to change within time. Proceed with your daily duties until tomorrow morning, when you will all meet me here early, and shall be divided into three groups, and taught how use all 3 combustion weapons.”

He still remembered it clearly. The next day, he had been assigned his own personal hand gun, with a wooden handle of oak., He had practiced with it until he could accurately fire it in his sleep. He was also adept at cannons, however, he was not very good at using 2-man hand cannons. He was a man of little social interaction, and working with loud-mouth Sicilians was something he could barely tolerate, which often resulted in a horribly slow shot compared to other groups of 2. However, thankfully, he would be leading a unit of 300 men, all with hand cannons, to fight a Turkish group of 500 men, by estimates, in southwestern Constantinople. They would be reinforced by 1000 men with cannons that would blast them while their unit would attack in the chaos. The cannons had been readily placed outside Constantinople, in the dead of the night, so that they would not suspect it. Infact, all of Constantinople’s walls had cannons with men waiting in the shadows, ready to fire. A signal would be passed on by the patrolling men on the walls, by the means of an instrument, to alert the men to strike. Overall, it was estimated that 15,000 men had been deployed against the Ottoman forces of 20,00, by modern historians, however, that is not taking into account the 4.000 men, by estimates, that where manning cannons all around Constantinople’s walls. At sunset, when the sun was still barely visible, the horn sounded. Anywhere from 500 to 1500 cannons where being fired, approximately 5,000-10,000 shots an hour where being launched, according to historians. Demetrius blew on his own, very high-pitched whistle as hard as he could, ordering the men to strike. Leading the charge on horseback, he rushed towards the confused, dazed, and most likely injured Turks with lust in his blood. Taking aim, he fired thrice into a crowd of Turks that where rushing at him, and then fired a 4th time, this time into the air, and quickly backtracked away. 15 seconds later, several rounds where shot at the group from cannons, and 9 of the 10 men where mortally wounded or dead. Demetrius signaled to his support of 10 men on foot to follow him, and went towards the oncoming, yet loosely organized and still rather confused Turks that where rushing at him and his men, and ordered them all to fire. Standing their ground, they took aim at heads and chests and killed half of all those targeted within the first few shots. The ones who managed to reach them where wounded, yet they where still highly professional Turkish military men. With swords in hands, they quickly hacked 3 of Demetrius’s 10 men to the ground, while the other men continued to fire and pulled out their swords. At close quarters, using a hand cannon could accidentally kill a fellow troop. Overcome by numbers, the Turks where killed and all hand cannons of the fallen Roman soldiers gathered. It was an explicit order to keep weapons as far away from the Turk’s hands as possible. With a glance at his men, Demetrius roared for blood and vengeance and dashed towards more enemies, his men in tow.

Excerpt from, ‘The Religion of Europe in the 15th Century’ by Alejandro de Toledo

‘Historians now generally agree that the Battle of Constantinople was one of the most decisive battles in Byzantine history. The battle lasted 3 days, the last day being a manhunt for remaining Ottoman forces. Cannons where now infamous; the cannons of Constantinople where considered the elite cannon by the end of the year, and the Papacy was frequently being approached about requests to buy cannons. Pope Martin V was happy to sell cannons to most monarchs, for a fee of course. The One Hundred Years’ War was still ongoing between France and England, so the French and English where willing to accept terms for when the next round of clashes would come. The French and English where to pay a fixed amount of gold per cannon, in addition to sending one man to Constantinople per cannon. It is estimated that up until the late 1400s, the French and English bought anywhere from 1,000 to 2,000 cannons before they created their own cannon-making industries that could compete with Papal and Byzantine quality. The men that where sent to Constantinople where made into farm laborers to work the fields of the recently acquired territory surrounding Constantinople. The English allowed the men’s wives to travel with them to Constantinople, however, the French did not. The demographic impact, however, was large. By this time, Constantinople’s population was only 50% native, the rest being made up of other Greeks, South Italians, and small communities of Iberian volunteers and French and English laborers. The military was made up mostly of foreigners, with Roman natives being the ones commanding the military.’

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I might redo the last part, simply because it is just somewhat big, and not that interesting in my opinion.
 
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PART 4 OF ???
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General Overview of 1431

When the siege force in Constantinople crumbled and the Ottomans began to chase them westwards, Murad II was outraged. The majority of his troops where being surrounded and pushed into Thrace while the
remainders in Bulgaria where being pushed slowly eastward.

Murad II, in anger, ordered the mobilization of 90% of all troops that bordered the Karamanid Emirate to be sent behind the Byzantines in Thrace and to destroy the Byzantine forces.

Unfortunately, and to the dismay of the Ottomans, the Karamanid Emirate had been waiting for the best opportunity to join the war. For years, the Karamanids and the Byzantines had been in contact to forge an alliance against the Ottomans. The Byzantines had asked for an immediate entry to the war, but the Karamanids declined and stated they would when the best opportunity occurred.

Infuriated, the Byzantines cut negotiations until the Karamanids saw the progress the European armies where making against the Ottomans and how forces where being drained from the border to fight against them. The Bey contacted the Byzantines and proposed he would join the war in 3 month’s time in exchange for:

-Access to the Black Sea
-Access to the Aegan Sea
-The destruction of the Ottoman state

In return, the Byzantines demanded:

-An alliance that would remain indefinetly
-No expansion into Europe by the Karamanids
-Majority Greek territories in Anatolia
-Preferential Trade Agreement regarding products from outside Europe


As the Byzantines, with victory a dim, but growing light, where in a better position to bargain and impose terms, the Karamanids accepted. When the Byzantines told the Karamanids of their plan to break the siege, the Bey promised to join the war once the siege was broken. When it finally occurred, the Karamanids waited until the Ottoman forces where around Ankara before declaring war and making a mad push north.

The Polish had agreed(under Papal pressure and a bribe in cannons) to trade with the Karamanids and give them food and supplies, in addition to the trade that went via Cyprus into the Karamanid Emirate. The Karamanids met with little resistance as they pushed through rural Anatolia and took half of the Ottoman Black Sea coast.

The Karamanids had assembled a solid wall of defense around the Emirate itself, with a plan to strike north, then west at Angora then south to Ilclonion, the main centre of operations to attack the Karamanids. Meanwhile, the force that was being sent to help the Ottoman forces in Thrace where split, half sent to Europe, and half sent back to the now-elongated border.

The Empire of Trebzfond, a Greek state, was unaware that they would become part of the Byzantine Empire[1] should they win, and quickly allied themselves to the Karamanids, hoping for territorial expansion. With the great majority of Ottoman forces trapped in Europe with no way to escape, the Ottomans put up a brave, yet weak fight against the Karamanids in the decisive Battle of Ilclonion.

The Ottomans where forced back to the root of the Menderes River, and had almost completely lost control of Southern Anatolia. The Sultan pleaded with the Byzantines and the Papacy to end hostilities in Europe and to allow the Ottoman armies in Europe safe passage back to Anatolia. The Byzantines, seeing the inevitable, greedily refused and continued to make slow progress against the surrounded Turk forces.

The Ottomans attempted to enlist more soldiers, however, with only a few week’s training and a cheap sword in hand, all they could do was slightly slow down the Karamanid advance. The Sultan had left his capital at Adrianople months earlier and had returned to the former capital of Bursa. As the Karamanids took all of Southern Anatolia, the Ottomans pleaded to become a vassal of the Karamanids, however, they refused.

They where determined to kill the beast and end their problems there and then. The Ottomans hastily ordered the retreat of all troops to the surrounding area of Bursa and dug in for a long, long siege. He would never surrender this fight to the last breath. The siege began in 1432 and ended in January of 1435 with the burning of Murad II’s corpse by Mehmet Bay, the Bey of the Karamanid Emirate.

Upon burning Murad’s corpse, Mehmet proclaimed the war over and named himself the Sultan of Anatolia. The armies of the Ottomans that fought in Thrace to the end finally succumbed in 1434 when grapeshots became widely used by the Christian powers and decimated groups of soldiers at once. Making professional military-quality grapeshots would be a major industry for the Byzantines and Serbians up to the mid 1800s.

Pope Martin V declared the fall of the Ottomans a sacred day and in a rare gesture, showed a slight sign of respect to the Karamanids by praising them for their conquest of the Ottomans, however, he quickly warned that any hostilities against Christendom would not be tolerated. Now that the requirements where met, Pope Martin V declared a holy council in Athens and asked all involved powers to attend. The Kings of Hungary, Serbia, Albania, and Wallachia attended, The King of the Romans, the Sultan of Anatolia, and representatives of Venice and Genoa also attended, of course.

Some cardinals showed minor hostilities to the presence of a Muslim, however, the Pope convinced them that this was a Muslim who deserved respect for destroying the Ottomans and saving Christendom in Europe. Several threats later, the assembly calmed down and Pope Martin V began telling the speech he had been preparing since 1418.

He first discussed the brutality of the Ottomans, using the word Ottomans over Turks so as not to seriously offend the Sultan. Pope Martin V then continued by talking about how the Byzantines could have fallen after so many centuries of single-handedly stopping Islamic expansion into Europe. The beaming John VIII stood up and made a short statement about how his family had gradually fallen and where actually attacked during a crusade despite being a Christian nation. Many cardinals began to feel uncomfortable at the mention of this, while John VIII sat down smugly.

Pope Martin V continued about how the Ottomans had conquered Bulgaria, one of the strongest powers in the Balkans at the time. He discussed how Serbia and Albania would have fallen all too soon had the Papacy not intervened, to which the Serb King gruntingly admitted. He then discussed how Hungary would have been an eventual target and that there was no way to be sure how such a clash of titans could have turned out. The King of Hungary felt a little ‘miffed’ by this remark but calmly continued to listen. Pope Martin V discussed how large funding had saved the Christians and that only this saved the Balkans at such a perilous time. Pope Martin V then asked the assembly. “Does anyone know how I funded this without bankrupting the Church?” No one dared reply, because truly, no one knew. No one but Pope Martin V. “The only reason Christianity was saved was because of the Jews.” Everyone remained stunned. ‘What F$%#$%#^ blasphemy is this?’ and ‘Has he finally gone mental?’ where what was going through the minds of the room as they all sat quietly.

Seeing the shock on their faces, Pope Martin V continued. “Jewish men have long been funding my campaign against the Ottomans. They too knew of the horrors of the Ottomans, and they too knew that only Christianity could save their kinsmen as well as the Christians. This is why they approached me. They knew they could not let Christianity fall. Some Jews themselves believe Christ to be the Son of Our Father. The Jewish people have long been oppressed and ignored. We have never stopped to listen, and when I finally stopped, I realized. If some Jews follow Christ, then some Jews can reach heaven. One truth that was also brought to my attention constantly after this realization was, that Christ himself lived among the Jews. He lived the life of a Jew."

"However, he wanted change. He wanted Christianity. He led the Jews. If Christ accepted the Jews, then why do we not? The Jews approached me trying to clarify this very point. They funded my war against the Ottomans in the name of Christ. I ask all of you to show respect to the Jewish people, for they have done an invaluable favor to Christendom. I will, in Rome, issue an Edict declaring active persecution of the Jews by the church heresy, for the services of the Jewish people to Christendom. Now that this matter is settled, let us proceed to peace.”

[1] No one was aware of the terms apart from the Byzantines and the Karamanids

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PART 5 OF ???:
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Athens, December of 1435

Negotiations went smoothly. The Peace of Athens was signed on December 14, 1435. In it, it was agreed to
that the Karamanid Emirate would not ever claim, take, annex, or wage war against any territory in Europe or any Aegean islands. The Empire of Trebfzond was to be formally annexed to the Byzantine state and the Emirate of Candaroglu and other minor Anatolian states was formally annexed to the Karamanid Emirate. The Byzantines would receive any Greek-majority areas that where in contact with other Greek-majority areas(meaning no enclaves) in Anatolia while all the rest of Anatolia became part of the Karamanid state. The Western Crimea formally became part of the Byzantine Empire with the other half going to the Genoese along with the Caucasus territory they controlled. The independence of Cyprus was reaffirmed(although both the Byzantines and the Karamanids eyed it hungrily)


The Balkans, by any observer’s perceptive, was a complete mess. The Byzantines where roaring at all powers to leave Greece or face Orthodox wrath, supported by the Papacy, because there was no remaining government in the now-dead Duchy of Athens. Serbs, Romans, Hungarians, Bulgarians, and Albanians where all arguing over what to do with Macedonia. Hungary demanded territory for it’s fight against the Ottoman Turks, and the Byzantines felt like giving the ‘Μέσο δάχτυλο’[1] to all other Balkan powers trying to take Macedonia. Naturally, the Papacy was the one that had to step in to stop another war from occurring. Another war after 14 years of harsh warfare was not going to happen. In the end, strengthening the state they had fought for, for so long and spent so much gold on got the lion’s share. Alban….The Byzantine Empire, of course. All the territories of the former Bulgarian Empire(2nd) where to be ceded to the Byzantines. The principality of Karvuna[2] was to be split between Venice and Genoa. Venice would receive everything north of Pangalia and Genoa everything south of Pangalia[3]. Pangalia itself was to be it’s own independent Duchy(of course, from the Palaiologos[4] dynasty).

According to the Papacy, everything 50 miles north of Karvana, from the Black Sea, in a straight line until it reaches Silistra, along the Danube to Vidin, to the outskirts of Nis, south to Strumika and in a straight line towards Didymotechio and to the Black Sea was now, and forever, Bulgaria. All of Bulgaria was officially swallowed into the Roman state. In addition, everything that bordered the Aegean east of Thessalonica that is not part of Bulgaria(AKA Thrace) was officially to be part of the Byzantine state. All Aegean islands not owned by a Latin or Catholic power where formally incorporated into the Roman Empire. Serbia was to retain Kosovo and expand southwards to Prilep. The border was to be determined at the Haliacmon river, and the borders with the Byzantines and Albanians was to be final. Albania was to return to it’s borders in 1401.

In addition, The Duchy of Athens, which was by now completely destroyed after such a bloody war, with no head of state, or nobility…….or even a defined local town ruler, was to be given to the Byzantine Empire, along with any other territory not controlled by the Latin Powers that was in Greece. Montenegro was to be officially annexed to Serbia. Croatia, for not following the will of the Pope when called to arms, would cede everything east of the Sava River to Hungary. In addition, everything south of the Una tributary was to be ceded to Bosnia and Serbia. Everything North of Omis was to go to Bosnia, everything South was to go to Serbia.

All that was left of Croatia was a rump state that the Venetians had economic domination over. Croatia could not protest these indignities to it’s sovereignty, as a highly militarized Hungary and Serbia could easily march on them and take even more territory. The effects this would have later on would make future Popes shudder, however, that is later and will not be noticeable until it is too late. Meanwhile, in Wallachia, Alexandru I Aldea[5] was to officially declare Vlad Tepes[6], his newborn son, his successor for the crown. Thus the Edict of Athens was born. The winners, Hungary, the Byzantines, and the Serbs, where overjoyed. The losers, the Croatians and independent Greek states, not much so.

Hungary and Serbia provided secondary walls of defense should the Ottomans return, Greek states where united into one Byzantine-ruled domain to form the main wall, it all seemed to be too good to be true(in papal eyes). While the papacy hadn’t liked the idea of disemboweling Catholic Croatia, the only reason Martin V was Pope right now was because of the King of Hungary, Holy Roman Emperor. Much arm bending indeed left the question undecided. Tragedy struck a few months later in March of 1436, when, Pope Martin V was found dead in his study, a rosary in his hand. He was truly mourned in Buda, Belgrade, and Constantinople, but cheered in Sofia and Zagreb. Of course, the Great Pope Martin V wasn’t immune to death, no one is. Many loyal Catholics at the time believed it was because he had finished serving his mission to God on earth, and it was time for him to join God for his great deeds and defending Christianity. His legacy would continue to carry weight for atleast a century to come.


[1] AKA Middle Finger
[2] Modern-day part of Romania, would strengthen Wallachia otherwise, something Hungary and the Byzantines do not want.
[3] City in the center of Karvuna that borders the coast
[4] Royal Byzantine dynasty
[5] King of Wallachia
[6]: Vlad Tepes, Vlad III, or Vlad the Impaler, is the one who inspired the famous novel Dracula. Vlad will do much more than just impale people….

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PART 6 OF ???:
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After the Pope’s death, Europe returned into a mode of interest as the Hapsburgs inherited the Crown of Hungary and united Austria and Hungary in a weak dynastic marriage, and Austria was suddenly a power for while it lasted. Poland looked on with shifty eyes. Hungary and Austria had historically antagonized Poland for land. It would not be a shock to see them do so again. In Western Europe, the 100 Year’s War was reaching a climax point and all nations looked on with interest. As usual, Iberian and German politics provided the main events.

Austria’s sudden growth in strength made her the dominant nation in the HRE, only surpassed by the Holy Roman Emperor himself in terms of power in Germany. In Italy and Iberia, Antisemitism was taking a strange shape. Many people that regularly went to church either heard a priest preach Jewish acceptance or preach the continuation of prejudice against the non-believers of Christ, claiming that a man without Jesus cannot be saved, while the Pro-Semitists declared that in time, Jews would adopt Catholicism as the Pagans took Christianity.

In the end, most states, notably Castile, Aragon, and the Northern Italian states accepted the views that Jews might one day become Catholics while other states such as Portugal and Naples(despite being a possession of Aragon) maintained their beliefs on Jews. While it was not what the wealthy and by now, dead Jewish men that had funded the Pope had hoped for, it was indeed an improvement. Generally, Southern France, England, and Northern Germany(in general) accepted the Pro-Semitist belief of some priests, while Northern France, Scotland, Southern Germany, and Poland carried on with their belief of Jewish inferiority.

In the Balkans, all was stable, for the most part. In 1463, Croatia was formally split between the Republic of Venice and Hungary, giving Hungary access to the Adriatic Sea. Hungarian power continued to grow as the Hungarians turned Bosnia into a puppet, debatably, in 1462 or 1463.

The Rumanian states where puppets of Hungary at this time as well. Southwards, Hungary enjoyed good relations with the Romans and Serbs, who themselves had managed to puppetize the Albanian nation because of it’s small size and relative weakness in relation to Serbia.

The Byzantines, meanwhile, had been busy reestablishing themselves on the Crimean peninsula(after promising the Genoese and Venetians that any economic interests they had in the Crimea would go unmolested).
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Comments:
-Part 6 is obviously incomplete
-I think I thinned it out rather than added meat, however, I think it's definetly more interesting.....:D
-Once I finish revising everything I have, I will post a new thread, ditch this one, and establish everything in order
 
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